What should be done about illegal immigration?

Oh, and welcome SierraSong. Smile

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A question aside: does noone demonstrate against the music the music of the National Anthem of the United States of America since it has been composed by a royalist Britton?

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Quote:
And lastly...taking umbrage with critics of America is in no way demonstrative of a lack of understanding of democracy. To suggest otherwise is sheer stupidity.

You understand nothing; rather than attacking the individual or media for criticizing America or Americans, challenge what they say, not who said it. Comprende?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

A question aside: does noone demonstrate against the music the music of the National Anthem of the United States of America since it has been composed by a royalist Britton?

If I remember correctly, Francis Scott Key was an accomplished attorney, American born, and son of a Revolutionary War patriot who was fighting on the American side against the British. That pretty much qualifies him to be the composer of our national anthem I believe.

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Quote:

John Stafford Smith was born in 1750 and christened in Gloucester Cathedral. After his education at the Cathedral School he was a choir boy at the Chapel Royal London. He also studied under Dr. Boyce. He gained a reputation as a fine organist and composer and gained membership of the select Anachreonic Society. Member have included J.S.Bach, Henry Purcell and James Boswell.

In 1780 he composed the music to the societies constitutional song. It was entitled " To Anachreon in Heaven ". It was inspired by a 6th century Greek poet and was about the pleasures of wine and love.

He played as organist at the Three Choirs Festival in 1790 at Gloucester. In 1836 he died at the age of 85.

I suppose, your knowledge about your national anthem, Foxfyre, needs a bit more than some updates.

But it is a bit delicate to have a popular pub tune as national anthem for some, I agree.

(Frances Scott Key penned the verses to the tune of John Stafford Smith.)

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There is some speculation whether John Stafford Smith composed the actual melody to which were set the words Francis Scott Key wrote. And there is no assurance that even if it was Smith's version that was used, that Smith himself did not lift the melody from something else. It was quite common, or at least it was in the 17th and 18th centuries, to set different lyrics to popular melodies. Even now our modern hymnbooks contain various hymns with different words but identical melodies.

At any rate, the US Congress chose Francis Scott Key's version because of the lyrics he wrote and not for the melody to which it was set.

And in keeping with the topic of this thread, it should be noted that it is not who sings our National Anthem or even in what language it is sung that is the issue at this time, but it is the reason it is being sung in a different language that triggers deep resentment among American patriots.

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Well, any newer source says different to your opinion.

But since you are the American here ...

Btw:

Foxfyre wrote:

If I remember correctly, Francis Scott Key was an accomplished attorney, American born, and son of a Revolutionary War patriot who was fighting on the American side against the British. That pretty much qualifies him to be the composer of our national anthem I believe.

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It does not matter one twittle what Francis Scott Keys background; it's now our national anthem.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, any newer source says different to your opinion.

But since you are the American here ...

Btw:

Foxfyre wrote:

If I remember correctly, Francis Scott Key was an accomplished attorney, American born, and son of a Revolutionary War patriot who was fighting on the American side against the British. That pretty much qualifies him to be the composer of our national anthem I believe.

Francis Scott Key is credited with composing the national anthem and no credible historian disputes that he did write the lyrics. J. S. Smith had absolutely no such notion in his head even if he did compose the melody that was ultimately used, and many historians believe there is a very good chance that he didn't even compose that. I suggest you should have a broader understanding of both American music and American history before you presume to teach American history, Walter.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I suggest you should have a broader understanding of both American music and American history before you presume to teach American history, Walter.

Well, I got this information via a friend, doctor in music history and music sciences.

And all the souces he showed me (besides those online and the various dictionaries and encyclopedias) confirmed this.

But as an American, you're the authority, I admit.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I suggest you should have a broader understanding of both American music and American history before you presume to teach American history, Walter.

Well, I got this information via a friend, doctor in music history and music sciences.

And all the souces he showed me (besides those online and the various dictionaries and encyclopedias) confirmed this.

But as an American, you're the authority, I admit.

I did study both music and history, including German music and composers in some detail, but I do not consider myself an authority. Even if I was, I would not presume to instruct you on the history or what you should think about your German national anthem.

I do have at least some knowledge of our own history, however, and I think I'm on pretty solid ground on our own national anthem. I still think you, and apparently your friend, need some different sources.

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Well, I just had music lessons at school. I really admire everyone who got a university degree on this subject - so without hesitation I would believe you everything you tell me.

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I have a history minor; no music degree. Just a deep interest in both. It would be quite dangerous to believe anything I told you other than to believe that I believed it and was reasonably secure in my belief.

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SierraSong wrote:

Oh, and by the way, your trying to turn this into a civil rights movement is ridiculous. The majority of U.S. citizens want two things: Secure borders and legal immigration for all those wanting to start a new life here.

So now you have to represent the majority of "U.S. citizens" to do a civil rights movement? Odd. Sorry, couldn't ignore that.

I don't know if the decision of latino organizations for the boycot is correct. It is a strong measure, and risky one. But, only if they join forces to express themselves, they can be heard. People need to value their economic presence, and possible deportation effects. Again, few consider the financial consequences. I guess congressmen do, thats why they are given this too much thought.

But, then again, legalizing millions IS of course a good excuse for more inmigrants to cross the border. Specially for families that where split. And it will continue happening even if you build a wall across the line. Ha, even the governator said that. Sure, you can minimize the problem, but hunger turns creative minds. The border is an imaginary line after all. And not all the illegals go through the desert. Many just show the VISA and stay in the US, without a work permit.

The problem will really be resolved when Mexico and Latinamerica can sustain its growth ratios. Some time ago I read that around 2050, when our population will stabilize, and when we can generate sufficient jobs, few people will migrate to the US. Probably we will become the new hot spot for centroamericans, hehe.

Oh, umm... an uncle of a friend crossed the border so her wife can give birth in San Diego. They are financially very good, but do consider that the child, being american, can achieve so much more. I agree. Embarrassed

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As stated previously, if you dont believe...

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el_pohl wrote:

SierraSong wrote:
Oh, and by the way, your trying to turn this into a civil rights movement is ridiculous. The majority of U.S. citizens want two things: Secure borders and legal immigration for all those wanting to start a new life here.

So now you have to represent the majority of "U.S. citizens" to do a civil rights movement? Odd. Sorry, couldn't ignore that.

I don't know if the decision of latino organizations for the boycot is correct. It is a strong measure, and risky one. But, only if they join forces to express themselves, they can be heard. People need to value their economic presence, and possible deportation effects. Again, few consider the financial consequences. I guess congressmen do, thats why they are given this too much thought.

But, then again, legalizing millions IS of course a good excuse for more inmigrants to cross the border. Specially for families that where split. And it will continue happening even if you build a wall across the line. Ha, even the governator said that. Sure, you can minimize the problem, but hunger turns creative minds. The border is an imaginary line after all. And not all the illegals go through the desert. Many just show the VISA and stay in the US, without a work permit.

The problem will really be resolved when Mexico and Latinamerica can sustain its growth ratios. Some time ago I read that around 2050, when our population will stabilize, and when we can generate sufficient jobs, few people will migrate to the US. Probably we will become the new hot spot for centroamericans, hehe.

Oh, umm... an uncle of a friend crossed the border so her wife can give birth in San Diego. They are financially very good, but do consider that the child, being american, can achieve so much more. I agree.

I think Sierra was not suggesting that only a majority can protest for civil rights. He was rather suggesting that trying to make this into a civil rights issue is absurd when the real issue is whether the law of the land will be enforced or ignored.

But el Pohl, I think you demonstrate a full objective understanding of both sides of this issue which our more Leftist brethren seem to be unable to do. I think you should run for public office. If your elected leaders possessed your understanding and sense of ethics, I think our respective countries could come to a meeting of minds and a reasonable solution to the problem much more quickly. (That's assuming our elected leaders also possessed your understanding and sense of ethcis of course, and that is debatable.)

By the way, how does "Pohl" translate into English? It is not in any of my S-E dictionaries.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I have a history minor; no music degree. Just a deep interest in both. It would be quite dangerous to believe anything I told you other than to believe that I believed it and was reasonably secure in my belief.

Well until now I believed what was written in "Richard's Wolf's Legit Professional Fake Book - 1010 songs":

Quote:

Song: The Star-spangled banner
Lyrics by: Key, Francis Scott
Music by: Smith, John Stafford

:wink:

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Fox, The law of the land is now being considered by congress. Until then, we will need to wait and see what laws they do actually pass that will affect the present illegals and those contemplating coming to the US illegally. It's the federal governments responsibility to make laws and enforce those laws. They have been lax in doing so in the past, and I'm not so sure they are up to the challenge to do it correctly in the future.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I have a history minor; no music degree. Just a deep interest in both. It would be quite dangerous to believe anything I told you other than to believe that I believed it and was reasonably secure in my belief.

Well until now I believed what was written in "Richard's Wolf's Legit Professional Fake Book - 1010 songs":

Quote:
Song: The Star-spangled banner
Lyrics by: Key, Francis Scott
Music by: Smith, John Stafford
:wink:

And your "Professional Fake Book" may be correct, Walter. But there are music historians who are not certain of the Smith link and, again, even if he is credited with the melody, there is uncertainty that it actually originated with him given the propensity in that era to reuse good melodies with several different sets of lyrics.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Fox, The law of the land is now being considered by congress. Until then, we will need to wait and see what laws they do actually pass that will affect the present illegals and those contemplating coming to the US illegally. It's the federal governments responsibility to make laws and enforce those laws. They have been lax in doing so in the past, and I'm not so sure they are up to the challenge to do it correctly in the future.

C.I., my mission in this is not to 'wait and see'. I am actively providing input into the process by letting my elected representatives know exactly how I feel about it. I am encouraging anybody with the ability to write or call or e-mail or fax to do the same.

I have received a detailed reply from Heather Wilson, New Mexico District I Rep, and if she votes like she talks, she should vote correctly. I have not heard back from either NM Senator, so I'm writing again.

Congress is responsive to the people because their No. 1 purpose in life apparently is to get re-elected. They are so rudderless at the moment I have to believe they aren't hearing from enough of us.

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