What should be done about illegal immigration?

ebrown_p wrote:

I just looked to see how this discussion was going (after having left it in boredom). I can't resist responding to this post.

Foxfyre, You are sooooo cute!!

Quote:

It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.

It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.

(I get your point).... but, you say so much more.

But understand this.

The people who sang the the American National anthem in Spanish are all citizens or legal immigrants. The radio stations that are promoting and playing it are owned and run by US citizens.

All of the people organizing the boycott and many of the people participating are US citizens.

Many of us who speak Spanish, and have families from other coutries are American citizens.

You use the word illegal, just like people in the past use the word "nigger"-- to dehumanize anyone who disagrees with you even when it doesn't fit.

But Foxfyre, you are not fighting illegals. You are fighting people many of whom are US citizens.

Spanish is not a crime-- and if you were only talking about obeying the law it wouldn't be racism.

US citizens singing their national anthem in Spanish.....

What does that have to do with breaking the law.

Utter tripe.

All of the demonstrators that march in US cities, sing the national anthem, and wave American (or Mexican) flags are not US citizens. It is ridiculous in the extreme to suggest otherwise.

Your interpretation of the word "illegal" as being tantamount to the use of "nigger," is a totally expected Liberal argument but, in no way, justifiable, and, frankly, asinine.

Although it is a consistently reliable Liberal ploy to suggest that anyone who disagrees with the Party Line is a racist, it is, at the same time, a feeble and pathetic ploy.

Of course speaking in Spanish is not illegal in the US, but it is suicidal, from a nationalistic viewpoint, to argue that Spanish speaking immigrants need not learn English.

Again, for a bare moment it would be helpful for you smug, sanctimonious Lefties to consider what your position might be if English speaking Americans were the immigrants flooding France, Germany or Mexico.

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Democratic freedoms such as freedom of speech are restricted to people like Finn who thinks only people like him has the privilege, and no other country's people or media are not allowed to criticize the US or Americans. Who exactly are these people? I prefer some new immigrants as Americans over Finn any old day.

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As a matter of fact, one of our newer neighbors immigrated from London; their children are all Americans citizens by birth.

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Nobody I've seen on this thread has bashed or denigrated immigrants in any way. The only complaints and concerns have been directed at people who think they can ignore U.S. policies and laws and, without invitation and without permission, think they can just move right in with impunity.

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That's the federal government's responsibility. If they won't take care of the problem, don't expect illegal immigration to stop.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I suppose, Finn, people outsite the USA have a (legitime? perhaps not in your opinion) inetrest to be informed via news and opinions about what's going elsewhere.

And the Guardian truely is not a apple-polisher of British politics - you might have missed some pages of a couple of issues.

On the other hand, I've read some opinions about France, Germany, Europe etc in some US-papers, too. They weren't always favourite, if at all.

Americans, deal first with your own issues before even considering an opinion on ours?

Walter

From my perspective, Europeans are welcome to voice their opinions on anything in which America engages.

Alas, I do not grant Europeans with some degree of wisdom and profundity that I would not grant my fellow Americans. You can be the same perfect horse's ass that many of my countryman can be as well.

Yes, I appreciate that this might not sit well with Europeans, for, after all, they are convinced that their shite smells like roses and their opinions are without question.

You are perfectly entitled to seek your news about America from whatever source your desire. I might expect that someone of your claimed intellectual capabilities would look for objective sources, but if you choose not to, I promise not to issue a fatwa against you and seek your eradication.

I would never argue that the Guardian is pro-UK, only that it is reliably anti-US. Think otherwise if you will.

That American newspapers may or may not print despicable lies about Europe is immaterial.

I am less concerned with the nonsense upon which you rely, than the nonsense you expouse.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Most Americans still don't realize some simple fact and history: Most new arrivals on America's shores back in the 1700s and 1800s were discriminated against - ansd surprise, they were white.
Except for the American Indians, all of us are decended from immigrants.
And lastly, those that criticize other people's opinions about America and Americans and are offended by them hardly understands anything about democracy.

More utterly ridiculous tripe. If this is representative of the ability of Americans to consider and debate, Walter your Europe has at least a good shot at being the last refuge of Western Civilization.

Most Americans do realize that the Irish, German, Italian, Jewish etc immigrants of bygone years did not have an easy time of it. What they also realize is that it the face of adversity, these immigrants not only persevered but succeeded.

The difference between yesterday's immigrants and today's is that back in the day there was not a powerful contingent of dunder-headed Liberals arguing that we should accommodate the immigrant rather than the other way around.

And lastly...taking umbrage with critics of America is in no way demonstrative of a lack of understanding of democracy. To suggest otherwise is sheer stupidity.

Being an adherent of Democracy, in no way, requires one to remain passive in the face of idiotic criticism from foreigners, or for that matter, fellow Americans.

You know, you spout these ridiculous comments as if there is no objective measurement of their worth. Typical Liberal mind-set, but nonsense is nonsense.

This is the Liberal's definition of Democracy: Everyone gets to spout whatever nonsense he or she may believe and we all must "respect" their opinions.

Walter is remarkably conversant in American current affairs, but it is incredibly absurd to suggest that he has some democratic right to express his opinions without challenge. Your suggestion that he does is so utterly stupid it causes pain.

Do you people ever read what you write?

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snood wrote:

Hey Sierra, you wanna hang around a day or so before you go so on the offensive? You're not going to have much luck having any kind of satisfying exchanges with folks here (assuming you have anything poitive like that in mind) if you're perceived as combative right out of the gate.

In other words, you may be entitled to have an opinion, but certainly not to express it. And if people are combative with you and with people with whom you agree, you may not reciprocate by expressing an opinion forcefully.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

I am less concerned with the nonsense upon which you rely, than the nonsense you expouse.

I'm most thankfull for your deep analysis of my opinion.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

I would never argue that the Guardian is pro-UK, only that it is reliably anti-US. Think otherwise if you will.

I obviously missunderstood your remarks ...

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Typical insipid nonsense from the Guardian.

First of all, criticism of illegal immigration is not the same thing as criticism of "migration." The Left is desperate to frame this issue in terms of racism or xenophobia, but it is a hollow charge.
[...]
That any UK institution (press or otherwise) might lecture the US on it's regard for foreigners is absurd and, frankly, nauseating. Guardian, deal first with your own issues before even considering an opinion on ours! But, of course, they will not because for their Liberal readers the produce of their coin is the bashing of America.

... since I'd thought, in your terminology 'liberal' was equivalent to the Left.

(You are correct that one might consider the Guardian not to be strictly a left [= Labour] paper but more leaning to the Liberal-Democrats. Althought they don't follow their strategies strictly either.)

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Finn,

I love your posts.

The sheer impotance of your position fills me with hope and excitement.

As a movement builds that is energizing the Latino community, gaining support from various groups from the Catholic community to African-Americans; all you can do is rant about liberals.

We will know whether you are right, or whether I am by what happens next. If the Right Wing Republicans are able to pass anti-immigrant legislation in a Congress that is still controlled by Republicans... if there are mass arrests... if there is English only legislation passed than I will know that you are right.

But I don't think so.

As Ghandi said about popular movements

Ghandi wrote:

First they ignore you, than they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.

This is more than a fight about illegal immigration. This is part of a broader struggle for what America means.

The Republican Right is launching a war on multiculturalism. The battle is whether the United States is about being English-speaking and Straight and Christian, or whether we truly are a melting-pot of many different cultures who are all respected and who all contribute to something greater.

This is why more and more American citizens from diverse backgrounds-- Haitian, Jewish, Catholic, Irish and Asian are voicing support for this movement. The continued use of the noun "illegal" to refer to a person, attacks on the Spanish language (and thus the Latin-American identity) all help us gain support.

The next couple of elections... and the next session in Congress is going to say whether my view of an inclusive, compassionate, diverse and accepting United States has political support.

I am confident the White Christian legalistic view of America that attacks diversity and puts law-and-order over human decency is on its way out

... but we will find out in the near future won't we.

Just understand that when the Immigrants rights movement gains strength, when the anti-immigrant forces lose political power, and when politicians pass legislation that you don't like... it is not the "illegal" immigrants fault. They have no power.

Politicians are under pressure to follow the will of voters-- American citizens. That is what the politicians from Schwarzenegger to Kennedy to McCain to Spectre to Bush are doing. That is why anti-immigrant legislation in Arizona was vetoed. That is why HR4432 is basically politically dead.

By the way, you win in Georgia. But given their history in the civil rights movement this is not very surprising.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

snood wrote:
Hey Sierra, you wanna hang around a day or so before you go so on the offensive? You're not going to have much luck having any kind of satisfying exchanges with folks here (assuming you have anything poitive like that in mind) if you're perceived as combative right out of the gate.

In other words, you may be entitled to have an opinion, but certainly not to express it. And if people are combative with you and with people with whom you agree, you may not reciprocate by expressing an opinion forcefully.

No those are your words, not mine. I simply meant to wait a few days before he's a horse's ass, that's all. I think it's not too much to ask - I had to be here for at least a week before I showed my ass Smile

, and I don't think that amount of civility is a high standard.

Y'know Brandon, keeping in mind the fact that you and I don't agree about almost anything to begin with, unless you are just outright spoiling for a fight with me, why even bother to inject your bass ackwards comments when it doesn't even concern you?

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snood wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
snood wrote:
Hey Sierra, you wanna hang around a day or so before you go so on the offensive? You're not going to have much luck having any kind of satisfying exchanges with folks here (assuming you have anything poitive like that in mind) if you're perceived as combative right out of the gate.

In other words, you may be entitled to have an opinion, but certainly not to express it. And if people are combative with you and with people with whom you agree, you may not reciprocate by expressing an opinion forcefully.

No those are your words, not mine. I simply meant to wait a few days before he's a horse's ass, that's all. I think it's not too much to ask - I had to be here for at least a week before I showed my ass , and I don't think that amount of civility is a high standard.

Y'know Brandon, keeping in mind the fact that you and I don't agree about almost anything to begin with, unless you are just outright spoiling for a fight with me, why even bother to inject your bass ackwards comments when it doesn't even concern you?

If I didn't comment on posts not directed specifically at me, I would be the only one on the Politics board with that policy. Posts much more "combative" than his, relatively polite ones, are standard here, including the one you just made to me. Your attempt to prevent him from speaking was obviously based on politics. No one is going to have his opinion suppressed around here.

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Re eBrown's immediately preceding post:

American Latinos of course are no different than any other American in that they represent all aspects of the political spectrum. I can assure you that conservative people of Spanish, Mexican, South American, and other "Latino" descent around here are adament that all Americans and would-be Americans have to follow the law or suffer the consequences.

In the local newspapers and in calls to the local talk shows, Americans of "Latino' descent are expressing their anger at suggestions of amnesty and appeasement coming from both the President and Congress. The President's approval rating is dropping like a stone and this is the issue, I believe, that is causing it.

The general consensus among almost all conservative callers, "Latino or not', is that some kind of guest worker program would be both practical and beneficial. But there is a good degree of consensus that the only fair and just policy will apply uniformly to everybody and those who have already broken the law should not be rewarded in any way for doing so.
And most have expressed a strong opinion that anybody walking off the job to participate in a 'no Gringo anything day' on May 1 should not have a job to come back to.

I still say those who are pushing this idiotic protest on May 1 are reinforcing a perception that many of the illegals want America to fully accommodate them while they themselves have no intention of assimilating American culture, language, values, or laws. They are doing the "Latinos' no favors.

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If nobody that immigrates here,legally or not,wants to learn english,thats fine,they dont have to.

But,all official business,all govt documents,all govt business of any kind should be conducted only in english.
That leaves the immigrants a choice,learn english or get no help or services from the govt.

The choice is theirs.

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mysteryman wrote:

If nobody that immigrates here,legally or not,wants to learn english,thats fine,they dont have to.

But,all official business,all govt documents,all govt business of any kind should be conducted only in english.
That leaves the immigrants a choice,learn english or get no help or services from the govt.

The choice is theirs.

In the past, however, any who vied for US citizenship did have to learn enough English to be able to read warning signs, road signs, pass a written or oral exam, and take their oath of allegiance to the United States in English. And immigrants were expected to arrange for this out of their own resources or their sponsor, if any, arranged it for them. This was for their benefit and advantage as well as everybody else in the country. Without a common language, people of a country become polarized, separated, and isolated from one another much more than what happens naturally through ethnic comfort zones, i.e. "Little Italy", "China Town", etc. that you find in many American cities.

A requirement to learn a reasonable amount of English for any who want permanent residence in the United States is still a good policy.

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ebrown_p wrote:

... but we will find out in the near future won't we.

You seem quite nervous as to the outcome as you have repeated this several times in several different ways.

Quote:

"There will be 2 to 3 million people hitting the streets in Los Angeles alone. We're going to close down Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Tucson, Phoenix, Fresno ," said Jorge Rodriguez, a union official who helped organize earlier rallies credited with rattling Congress as it weighs the issue

.

Sadly, this will change the minds of those (even die-hard liberals) once sympathetic to the plight of illegals in this country.

You may want to practice saying the word "backlash" in Spanish.

Oh, and by the way, your trying to turn this into a civil rights movement is ridiculous. The majority of U.S. citizens want two things: Secure borders and legal immigration for all those wanting to start a new life here.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

snood wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
snood wrote:
Hey Sierra, you wanna hang around a day or so before you go so on the offensive? You're not going to have much luck having any kind of satisfying exchanges with folks here (assuming you have anything poitive like that in mind) if you're perceived as combative right out of the gate.

In other words, you may be entitled to have an opinion, but certainly not to express it. And if people are combative with you and with people with whom you agree, you may not reciprocate by expressing an opinion forcefully.

No those are your words, not mine. I simply meant to wait a few days before he's a horse's ass, that's all. I think it's not too much to ask - I had to be here for at least a week before I showed my ass , and I don't think that amount of civility is a high standard.

Y'know Brandon, keeping in mind the fact that you and I don't agree about almost anything to begin with, unless you are just outright spoiling for a fight with me, why even bother to inject your bass ackwards comments when it doesn't even concern you?

If I didn't comment on posts not directed specifically at me, I would be the only one on the Politics board with that policy. Posts much more "combative" than his, relatively polite ones, are standard here, including the one you just made to me. Your attempt to prevent him from speaking was obviously based on politics. No one is going to have his opinion suppressed around here.

You needn't believe this, but my comments were based on the fact that at the time, he had been a member for about an hour, I was reading his 3rd post, and it was very ascerbic. I now understand he must share your politics because you are defending him. Fair enough. Let the games continue!

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mysteryman wrote:

If nobody that immigrates here,legally or not,wants to learn english,thats fine,they dont have to.

But,all official business,all govt documents,all govt business of any kind should be conducted only in english.
That leaves the immigrants a choice,learn english or get no help or services from the govt.

The choice is theirs.

Theodore Roosevelt had similar opinions.

Quote:

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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Brandon9000 wrote:

snood wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
snood wrote:
Hey Sierra, you wanna hang around a day or so before you go so on the offensive? You're not going to have much luck having any kind of satisfying exchanges with folks here (assuming you have anything poitive like that in mind) if you're perceived as combative right out of the gate.

In other words, you may be entitled to have an opinion, but certainly not to express it. And if people are combative with you and with people with whom you agree, you may not reciprocate by expressing an opinion forcefully.

No those are your words, not mine. I simply meant to wait a few days before he's a horse's ass, that's all. I think it's not too much to ask - I had to be here for at least a week before I showed my ass , and I don't think that amount of civility is a high standard.

Y'know Brandon, keeping in mind the fact that you and I don't agree about almost anything to begin with, unless you are just outright spoiling for a fight with me, why even bother to inject your bass ackwards comments when it doesn't even concern you?

If I didn't comment on posts not directed specifically at me, I would be the only one on the Politics board with that policy. Posts much more "combative" than his, relatively polite ones, are standard here, including the one you just made to me. Your attempt to prevent him from speaking was obviously based on politics. No one is going to have his opinion suppressed around here.

In defense of Sierra, you of course are absolutely right re a freedom of speech policy at A2K. But I think had Sierra come in on the 'let everybody in who wants in - no strings attached' crowd side, he could have been as combative as he (she?) wished and there would not have been so much as a murmur of protest from the advocates of that position. Those on the other side however might have commented on his combative style. Smile

Just look at how those of us who have been here for more than a week are treated. If we express our opinion from the, in this case, majority point of view, at least some of us have been labeled by some on the other side, directly or by inference, as bigoted, racist, uncompassionate, selfish, and numerous other unflattering characterizations. Further we have been accused of saying and/or intending all sorts of things that have never been said.

Because the majority (in this case) generally demonstrates a somewhat more constructive mentality--in my opinion of course Smile

--they/we have generally limited characterizations of the pro-illegal-immigrant group to 'tripe', 'misinformation', 'misplaced advocacy', or such as that.

The national debate isn't going much differently and with all points of view expressed we can hope we can figure out what needs to be done in time to put the pressure on our elected representatives to do the best thing. They obviously aren't even close to figuring out what needs to be done.

I do believe there will be severe ramifications, at least in the short term, for those who vote for any kind of policy that rewards people for breaking the law.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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