What should be done about illegal immigration?

Maybe I am looking at this in a rather simplistic way. If so, maybe e_brown can clear up my confusion. Since it is illegal (against the current laws) for someone to enter this country without proper documentation and permission, what is the problem with enforcing the laws when someone is found to be here illegally? We fully enforce other laws, do we not? If I steal something and somehow manage not to be found out for a couple of years, I am still subject to prosecution and punishment for breaking the law. The same should go for people who sneak across our borders or who stay beyond the expiration of their visas.

I get the sense that Fox has no problem with anyone coming here legally. But someone please explain to this clown why we should turn our backs and allow anyone at all to come here illegally? Do other countries do so? Could I just sneak across the border of Mexico and live there without trouble from their authorities if found? Or how about Germany? Can I sneak in there Walter and live without fear of being prosecuted for wanting to make my home there? I don't know, I'm just asking out of curiosity.

So, in summary, just what is the problem with wanting to see our immigration laws obeyed by all and sending those caught here without proper paperwork back where they came from?

Thanks.

Sure Coastal, I will explain my position.

There is no question that entering this country without proper documentation and permission is illegal (against our current laws), although currently it is a civil offense (not criminal).

This is not the question (although what immigration laws should be is another interesting question for another debate).

The question is what to do with the 11 million people who are now here illegally. I would like to agree on five premises.

1) Many of these people did break a law (some came as children and were raised here and technically broke no law).
2) They are human beings.
3) Many of them now have families and lives here and being forced to leave would cause great difficulty.
4) Many Americans want them here either for economic reasons (small farmers for example say they will suffer without these illegal workers) and some for family/community (these people contribute and take part in American life).
5) They broke a law (I feel I have to repeat this one for Foxfyre's sake).

(Actually point #2 may be the point most overlooked by the other side.)

So the question is what to do with these people. There are several options.

1) We could round them up, arrest them and deport them. However, this would be prohibitively expensive.

2) We could make their lives a living hell; deny their kids education; keep them from getting health care; prevent them from driving a car; keep them from using a bank and keep them in constant fear. The key to this plan is that starving, miserable people with no education and no access to health care will leave volantarily.

This is the current plan of Foxfyre's side. There are pragmatic problems with this; for example do you want people who don't have the right to get treatment for TB living in your city?

But there are also obvious humanitarian problems as well-- remembering the fact that they are human beings (in spite of the fact that Foxfyre tells us they have broken a law.)

3) We can give them a path to become legal-- and insist that they take it (and they will). This will mean that American citizen's don't need to choose between breaking up their family or staying in their country. It will mean that kids who have grown up here will be able to say and contribute to the country they know and love-- and have the opportunity to get an education and live a productive life that will give back to the US.

If you feel the need to punish, then punish-- the current compromise gives a fine, a strict background check, insists on payment of back taxes and the knowledge of English.
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So Coastal, I believe we are arguing between options 2 and 3 (Option 1 is ruled out by all but the most radical right demagogues).

In my opinion, a path to citizenship (coupled with a fine to assuage the people who don't believe in forgiveness) is the only logical, humane choice.

If you want to insist that people follow our laws, why don't you give them the opportunity to do just that.

Finally after six years Bush said something I can agree with.




Not only was it sung in Spanish, our anthem was distorted to accommodate the foreign language.
I noted the fact that it released by a Briton. I wonder how translating the British anthem into Spanish would sit with the British public.

Au,

I thought this was about people doing something against the law and not about racism (at least that's what Foxfyre says).

American citizens (or anyone else for that matter) singing the national anthem in Spanish is not illegal.

So why are you opposed then?

(BTW I think the fact that people are now attacking Spanish is a good thing for our side.)

There is no single authorised version of the British anthem; indeed, the anthem has never been officially adopted by Royal Proclamation nor Act of Parliament. In general only one, or on rare occasions two, verses are ever sung.

And as the Guardian wrote some years ago:


I really don't get the point, why a national anthem can't be sung in other languages (I like ours sung in Japanese :wink: ).

It's not just the National Anthem


I found out they even translated the BIBLE into Spanish! What is the world coming to?

You're sure?

ebrown_p
You can shove that racism card where the sun does not shine. When did it become racism to expect people to sing our national anthem in the language it was written? This is the USA where the accepted language is still English. I would assume that by your definition Bush is a racist?
Note: IMO it is time the congress get off it's collective duff and pass legislation making English the law of the land.

Walter would you object if the illegals were deported to Germany instead to the land of origin.

What are the laws in Germany regarding illegal immigration? Are they accepteed with open arms and afforded all the benifits of a citizen? What is required of them to gain citizenship? Do children born to non-citizens, documented or not in Germany get automatic citizenship as they do in the US?

Brown wrote


Considering the problems religion has caused, it would have been far better if it had never been translated into English to begin with.

Au,

I thought this was the USA (the land of the free, home of the brave) where we, as American citizens, can sing the national anthem in any language we like.

You and Foxfyre both talk as if you speak for all Americans against the horrible Spanish speakers.

Many American citizens speak Spanish; And we vote!

(It cracks me up to see you defending our dear leader...)

bm
I haven't read through this all yet.
JOSE, CAN YOU SEE
As for the US national anthem. it is, musically, pretty bad. And over the years it has been slaughtered by thousands of us as we try to sing it. And then there is Jimi Hendrix's version and remember some actress's version at a baseball game where she ended by grabbing her crotch.
I have absolutely no problem with someone doing an Hispanic language version. Don't we have bigger things to worry about?

ebrown writes


I agree. Which is why I have suggested that everybody be required to go home and come back legally. It would be easy enough to come up with a temporary work program that would allow employers to bring their work forces right back but the application and process should begin in the worker's native country.

I am fully aware of the logistical problems involved with this. But any alternative is not palatable with most Americans. (Acknowledging that eBrown is in a passionate minority on this issue.)

All the other negative characterizations about motives of those who think people who come here should do so legally and the crocodile tears shed by those wailing over the plight of the illegals does not change the one simple principle of us being a people governed by law. And most of us think it is unwise to allow a few people to decide what laws must be followed and what laws can just be conveniently ignored. We certainly don't think that those who come univited should be able to decide that. And we emphatically don't think that those who have thumbed their noses at our laws should be rewarded because of it.

If it's a bad law, then we change it. We don't encourage people to ignore it.

Thus it is my opinon that we can't decide how to handle the issue of the 12 million who are already here until we decide what the law is going to be and how it will be enforced. Once that is decided, THEN we can focus on the best way to deal with those already here illegally.

The issue is not what language the National Anthem is sung in I think. The issue is why the National Anthem is being sun in another language. Most people resent being bludgeoned and intimidated into compromising their principles, and they aren't buying the obviously phony line that this recent issue over the National Anthem was to express any form of patriotism or pride in being American. This observation was underscored in that it was in tandem with an organized 'nothing Gringo day' to happen on May 1.

I think the illegals and their supporters are not doing themselves any favors at all with this stuff.

"Us" "We" "We"

Who the hell do you think you are Foxfyre?

A recent CNN poll says you are wrong in your grandiose belief you speak for the American public. Fully 77% say that people who have been here for more than 5 years should be allowed to stay and become citizens. Nearly half of "us" believe that people who have been here between 2 and 5 years should.

Face it Foxfyre. We Americans in general have more compassion than you do Foxfyre.

And who the hell are you eBrown to tell me what I am supposed to think, what I am supposed to believe, or what I am supposed to want? Don't you think that's just a little bit over the top?

And post your CNN poll results please along with the exact questions asked. I did that will other polls in this thread and they apparently contradict yours.

Brown
Not defending, agreeing with. IMO rewriting and translating the US national anthem into a foreign language is an insult and affront to America and it's citizens.

Walter, I have no objection to Germany's national anthem being sung in Japanese. Since it is none of my business as an American citizen. :wink:

I am just pointing out Foxy, that you don't speak for Americans.

I am an American and I (yes an American citizen) am the one who is demanding that you treat immigrants (both legal and illegal) with decency and compassion.

Your fight is not really against "illegals" (who can't vote and don't really have any political leverage to defend themselves.

Your fight is with us-- Americans who believe that our nation should be a nation of decency and compassion and who believe that diversity and understanding are good things.

And let me tell you WE are pissed off.

Here's the latest posted by Rasmussen just a little bit ago:

Dems Make Progress on Immigration Issue
Survey of 1,500 Adults
April 21-23, 2006

Trust on Immigration
April 21-23
Republicans 35%
Democrats 42%
RasmussenReports.com

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Trust on Immigration
April 8-9
Republicans 37%
Democrats 31%
RasmussenReports.com

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Trust on Immigration

March 28-29
Republicans 38%
Democrats 37%
RasmussenReports.com

April 26, 2006--Before the immigration debate exploded on the national scene, Americans were evenly divided as to which political party they trusted more on the issue. After the earliest rounds of the debate, the GOP gained ground and were favored by a 37% to 31% margin.

Since then, Democrats have focused more attention on the enforcement side of the debate. DNC Chairman Howard Dean even stated that enforcement of the border is his party's top priority. As a result, Democrats appear to have won round two of the debate among the general public--42% now trust Dean's party more on this issue while 35% trust the GOP.

Democrats have gained ground primarily by solidifying their base--77% of Democrats now trust their party more on the issue than Republicans, up from 60% earlier. Democrats have also made gains among unaffiliated Americans. Republicans still trust their own party more on this issue by a 70% to 12% margin.

However, while Democrats have gained ground, they still trail among the 53% of Americans who say that immigration is very important in terms of how they will vote this November. Among this group, 43% trust the GOP more and 33% trust the Democrats. To the degree that intensity matters, that's good news for Bill Frist and his GOP colleagues in Congress.

Fifty-seven percent (57%) of Americans still favor building a barrier along the Mexican border (a number that jumps to 73% among those who consider the issue very important).

Just 26% of Americans have a favorable opinion of those who have marched and protested for immigrant rights. Fifty-four percent (54%) have an unfavorable view.

SOURCE

My fight is against those who wish to ignore US laws with impunity. That is a 100% separate issue from decency, compassion, and diversity.

Until you acknowledge that these are two separate things any discussion is pointless.

And you couldn't possibly be more pissed off than people who are sick and tired of the status quo and a situation that is fast deteriorating and that needs to be addressed now before it becomes much much worse.

The people I am defending want to become legal. That way we can do both... respect US law AND live with decency, compassion and diversity.

But you fool yourself... if you were fighting against them, it would be easy for you to win. They are not very powerful, they tend to be poor, they can't vote and don't have representation in Congress.

Yet you can't seem to get the legislation you want... and when your side tries to act, it often backfires politically. The House Bill is under attack from diverse groups from the Chamber of Commerce to the Catholic Chuch. The California legislature even today passed an act supporting the day of protest Monday.

The "illegals" you are demonizing have no power. Yet you can't do anything effective against them.

Don't you wonder why that is?