What should be done about illegal immigration?

In years past, the illegals kept a low profile and were under the radar for most Americans. A series of court rulings, however, granting health care, free education, and various other benefits to the illegals that have stretched social services to a crisis point in many places, sharply increased numbers of illegals in our jails and prisons, and increased awareness of how substandard wages paid to illegals are depressing wages for others. . . .

. . .all this PLUS an increased arrogance of people not legally entitled demanding increased consideration for their needs, wants, culture and sensibilities. . . .

PLUS Vicente Fox being the ONLY head of state who has accused the US of racism against Mexicans if we object to taking all his criminals, his poor, his underemployed, etc. no questions asked, no laws enforced, and no expectations expressed. . . .

All this has brought the issue onto the radar screen. Most Americans resent el Presidente Fox's attitude, are fed up with people who thumb their noses at our laws, and acknowledge that as rich as we are, we do not have the capability of taking in all the world's poor and underemployed without losing our ability to help anybody. Most Americans are simply fed up with an unacceptable situation.

I have not seen or heard one single American say that it is only MEXICANS who are here illegally and should go home. I have heard most Americans say that ALL people who are here should be here legally.

So repeat after me:

It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.

And the illegals should be learning and repeating a mantra that carrying and waving your national flag, waving ours upside down or burning it, trying to promote our national anthem in your own first language, and organizing protest marches against law enforcement or encouraging boycott of the very people who have madeyour existance here possible......all this does nothing to endear you to most Americans and it certainly doesn't inspire most Americans to want you to stick around.

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Nicely stated Fox.

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I just looked to see how this discussion was going (after having left it in boredom). I can't resist responding to this post.

Foxfyre, You are sooooo cute!!

Quote:

It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.

It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.
It is NOT racist to insist that the law be enforced.

(I get your point).... but, you say so much more.

But understand this.

The people who sang the the American National anthem in Spanish are all citizens or legal immigrants. The radio stations that are promoting and playing it are owned and run by US citizens.

All of the people organizing the boycott and many of the people participating are US citizens.

Many of us who speak Spanish, and have families from other coutries are American citizens.

You use the word illegal, just like people in the past use the word "nigger"-- to dehumanize anyone who disagrees with you even when it doesn't fit.

But Foxfyre, you are not fighting illegals. You are fighting people many of whom are US citizens.

Spanish is not a crime-- and if you were only talking about obeying the law it wouldn't be racism.

US citizens singing their national anthem in Spanish.....

What does that have to do with breaking the law.

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You have made your point of view quite clear eBrown. I fully acknowledge that you think it is perfectly okay for those who have been breaking our laws to continue to do so, and you are absolutely convinced that anybody who thinks differently than you is at best a closet racist or at worst a blatant racist.

I have made my point of view clear also that I think your point of view to be incorrect, wrong, lame, misguided, prejudiced, bigoted, ill informed, and unfortunate.

I think we should probably just leave it at that.

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ebrown, I believe Fox was attempting to answer Walters question and as a result included many factors.

Picking them out of context isn't going to help.

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Just to make it clear... I stongly object to the characterization of this struggle as a fight between "illegals" and American citizens. It is not.

Foxfyre, there are many American citizens who are fighting against your brand of harsh legalism (and the racist attituds behind us). To me it is a fight to rescue the values that the US was based on from the Conservative Religious right.

In my view, you are more dangerous to the core of American values than any illegal immigrant.

There are many American citizens who are ready to oppose you.

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McG,

Foxfyre is specifically attacking the protesters as un-American. She brought up the National Anthem in Spanish as an example, as if this were somehow illegal.

I think my scorn of her post (and her general position) is justified.

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I see it the same way and this is really shocking Shocked

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ebrown_p wrote:

McG,

Foxfyre is specifically attacking the protesters as un-American. She brought up the National Anthem in Spanish as an example, as if this were somehow illegal.

I think my scorn of her post (and her general position) is justified.

No, she said "all this does nothing to endear you to most Americans and it certainly doesn't inspire most Americans to want you to stick around."

Nothing at all about it being illegal. The only thing she said about being illegal, was being in the country illegally.

I agree with her 100% and I know I am not the only one. Many Americans also feel the same way and will continue to oppose illegal immigration.

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It is never surprising that you think anything I say is racist or inappropriate or wrong, Walter, as you never pass up an opportunity to say so.

Ebrown has made his point quite clearly that I am the scourge of all America because I believe that most Americans do want people who visit, work, and live here to do so legally. And if others point out the protests as somehow being the majority opinion or what will figuratively 'bring us to our knees', I will point out that Americans tend to be made of stronger stuff than that and there is a limit to how much they can be bullied and intimidated.

I believe the protests accomplish nothing but increase negative feelings and animosity. I believe that if we do not enforce our laws, we will lose most of what makes us a great nation.

And I believe those who are unable to see that are just plain wrong.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thanks, but your response doesn't give a hint at all to more understanding why "little was said when the number of people in this country illegally was not as high as it is today".

Because one says less about a small problem than later when it becomes a big problem.

But this has nothing to do with the idea that the US, like every other country, has the right to control and limit immigration, and that breaking the law should not be rewarded.

I find it rather odd, for you, a non-citizen, to be seeming to say to us that we must let in anyone and everyone who wishes to come here, and in whatever numbers occur, something that probably not many countries do. Does Germany allow anyone and everyone who wishes to to immigrate without even asking permission?

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Walter, as Setanta would say, is just stirring the turd at this point. Best to simply ignore his postings when he gets like that.

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Foxfyre wrote:

And I believe those who are unable to see that are just plain wrong.

Nothing to do with any views on immigration but this kind of assertion reminds me those religionists that say:

If you dont believe the Qu'ran you are wrong.
If you dont believe the Bible you are wrong.
If you dont believe what I believe you are wrong.

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Foxfyre and McG.

As you both probably know, the immigration fight is part of a larger cultural "war" about what America means.

What I disagree with you all is the political landscape. I don't expect people like you to ever support immigrant rights (or the rights of any minority like homosexuals or minorities).

McG said the magic words. The fight is for what "most Americans" think. Foxfyre seems to think that she represents "most Americans", but (thank God!) the polls and the political movement don't support this view. Most Americans are ambivalent but most Americans support the idea of "earned citizenship" which is the core of what I want.

But what offends McG or Foxfyre doesn't really matter since you are both clearly solidly on the other side and the middle is what we want. I don't think most Americans share this offense (but we will see won't we).

A BATTLE FOR HEARTS AND MINDS
The immigrant rights movement is winning simply by having the other side be uglier.

In the past couple of weeks, the anti-immigrant people are screaming because pro-immigrant folks are singing songs in Spanish. In the same time period, the anti-immigrants folks make headlines at CNN for publishing a video game the features shooting pregnant Mexican woman (called "breeders" in the game) at the border. Which of these two things will most Americans find more offensive.

And, don't forget that racist or not racist, the KKK is on your side. I don't mind this at all.

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Francis wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
And I believe those who are unable to see that are just plain wrong.

Nothing to do with any views on immigration but this kind of assertion reminds me those religionists that say:

If you dont believe the Qu'ran you are wrong.
If you dont believe the Bible you are wrong.
If you dont believe what I believe you are wrong.

Or, in this case, it means that those who think that it is racist or uncompassionate or wrongheaded or dangerous to insist that our laws be obeyed are seen as being completely wrong.

Or how about America sending all its criminally inclined, poor, and underemployed to France, in unlimited numbers, where they will avail themselves of whatever social services France offers its citizens, will depress wages, and will demand that everything be offered in English as well as French and that the French respect and assimilate their flag and culture all the while your new immigrants thumb their noses at French law? If you objected to that or said that it would be wrong for us to do it and for you to allow it, would your objection be out of racism or religious fanaticism?

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Foxfyre wrote:

Or, in this case, it means that ...

Or how about America sending all its criminally inclined, poor, and underemployed to France, in unlimited numbers, where they will avail themselves of whatever social services France offers its citizens, will depress wages, and will demand that everything be offered in English as well as French and that the French respect and assimilate their flag and culture all the while your new immigrants thumb their noses at French law? If you objected to that or said that it would be wrong for us to do it and for you to allow it, would your objection be out of racism or religious fanaticism?

While I might get your first point - how do you come to that second? What has France to do with it?

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I was responding to Francis's post, Walter.

And I am pretty sure Francis wouldn't consider a influx of American illegal immigrants singing La Marseillaise in English as an affirmation of their French patriotism.

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It seems funny, doesn't it, that American Conservatives are now wanting usto be like France.

If I understand correctly, France is not very good to its immigrant workers... they have consistantly refused to let them become full citizens even thought the French economy relies on their labor.

Now they have a persistant underclass that is causing problems in society.

I don't want the US to be like France. This is one reason I insist on a path to citizenship for immigrants (legal or not) who work, and build lives here.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Or, in this case, it means that ...

Or how about America sending all its criminally inclined, poor, and underemployed to France, in unlimited numbers, where they will avail themselves of whatever social services France offers its citizens, will depress wages, and will demand that everything be offered in English as well as French and that the French respect and assimilate their flag and culture all the while your new immigrants thumb their noses at French law? If you objected to that or said that it would be wrong for us to do it and for you to allow it, would your objection be out of racism or religious fanaticism?

While I might get your first point - how do you come to that second? What has France to do with it?

I wouldn't worry yourself over it Walter. It obviously wasn't intended for your attention, but Fracis', who happens to live in France.

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I have no problem with a path to citizenship. In fact we already have one. It might need looking at it, adjusting it, amending it, or improving it. I am just in favor of everybody having to abide by it. Those here illegally didn't.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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