50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 06:27 pm
@dyslexia,
OK, heres what you said...

Quote:
what, to me, is a significant problematic issue is the absolute failure of our (USA) higher education system brought about by the G.I. Bill entitling every g.i. (post WW II) to receive a college education.



Then you said this...
Quote:
The G.I. bill created illegal immigration (I ain't picking no lettuce, I'm a college graduate)


And I said this...

Quote:
So now its the fault of veterans taking advantage of their VA benefits?

After all, the govt made a contract, and those of us who are veterans simply made them honor that contract.

So now you seriously believe that veterans are the cause of illegal immigration?
You cant be serious!!!!!


So you DID blame the GI Bill and veterans for the rise in illegal immigration.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 06:33 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:

That MAY, and I stress MAY, be true.
However, that does not mean that the GI Bill and colleges are responsible for illegal immigration, as dys suggested.


dys is right on this one....you can not imprint expectation on an individual and then fail to meet those expectations, to do so is the quickest method of birthing radicals. Once these kids had been allowed to spend four (or five) years at the university, spend those years expecting that what to them is hard work would be rewarded, the society had to go far to meet those expectations or else face revolution. The need skewed our politics and in turn skewed our economy to the extent that cheap labor was needed for the jobs that were not wanted. And once those jobs got turned over to migrants whom had little or no rights the wages and the working conditions fell even more, to create jobs that no American citizen would take. Had we not allowed so many to go to collage we would have had Americans taking those jobs, and not only would immigration not be as much of a problem as it is today but the class stratification and the corruption of the ruling class would be much less of a problem than it is today.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 06:44 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
I attended university on the GI Bill, what I did not infer but rather stated quite directly as that our higher education dramatically lowered their standards producing illiterate but degree owning numbnuts.


So you are now calling veterans "illiterate but degree owning numbnuts"?
Yet you blame colleges for getting the money from the GI Bill, which was only available to veterans.

You sure dont have much respect or regard for vets, do you?
nice try MM probably even good enough for government work but essentially inane, I do put some blame on universities for wanting a piece of the action and more than happy to accommodate the federally funded plebian hordes by lowering minimal academic standards misleading their consumers into the false belief that they were receiving an education.
In terms of the GI Bill and illegal immigration, my intent was to demonstrate that this "new educated class" living in suburbian found common labor to be beneath them which led to increased illegal aliens seeking work/income on our side of the border.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 08:46 am
@dyslexia,
Quote:
the point is not what dys said or didn't say, the point is that dys said something so it must b e wrong, I assume, spendi, you're familiar with that syndrome.


Very much so. Not that I mind. It discredits those who indulge in the method.

I think the GI Bill was well intentioned. Large numbers of men in that age range which is so important had been de-socialised to a certain extent. Re-integrating them into the American way of life was never goung to be easy. Society, in their absence, had been getting along fine. They were a potentially disruptive force. They had picked up some bad habits on their travels. Necessarily so I might add.

And it is a long time ago. But was there a need to continue with the process once the bulk of them had been re-oriented. The average Joe who,later, had not been away at war was a substitute to enable the business of education to continue to expand even if he had to become a Systems Analysis Co-ordinator or a Logistics Facilitation Supervisor. It blows the head right off the shoulders of the average Joe. Take Colonel Hall for example. And it is well known that the average Joe, one of whom is born every minute, cannot resist flattery of the ego, and nor can his parents because their genetic material is being flattered also. And there were millions of them and, with feminism coming in, a growing and equally average rabble of average daughters of the upthrusting and self-improving average parenthood from whose loins they had sprung.

With the institutions of higher education having succeeded, by devices and strategems which I will refrain from describing, Veblen having already covered the main points, in establishing the principle that a state's universities and colleges were flagships of their excellence, the stage was set for the application of business principles on rather a grand scale.

Anyone who raised any questions was easily labelled a luddite or worse and once media had found jobs for products of the first phase who were now co-ordinatining the analysis of all the new systems they had invented in order for there to be something to co-ordinate, fossil collections for example, some genuine, and supervising the logistical facilitations which the systems analysts had co-ordinated, no small task, as well as writing the articles wande likes to quote, all of which are the utterest drivel simplified to absurdity, such discontents and misfits were easily relegated to the sidelines, marginalised and looked down upon. They were, in short, easily ignored. Systems logistics were put in place to facilitate ignoring them in the simplest ways that can be thought of. Obviously.

It is of course self-correcting because economics is a science and as such not amenable to the hopes and aspirations of the millions of politically powerful beta minuses who have had their heads blown off their shoulders by skilled weavers of the winds.

Now- while there has been some measure of agreement to the first thesis I put forward, without acknowledgement of course, only a fool would expect the product to allow light to be deflected from his/her person, it is evident that my second idea has been ignored. Consciously or unconsciously I don't know. It is sometimes difficult to distinguish between these entities.

It was, if I may be allowed to remind you all, that your picture of the US which you export at great profit to the world cannot but drive the poor and oppressed to seek the salvation, as they must see it, of your shores. I mean to say--who wants to go to Russia?

There is an old story, it may even be a myth, that the first people to land on Iceland called it by that name in order to discourage others to follow them to this empty island with hot springs and unlimited fish they had happened upon.

What must it do to a young man living in squalor beneath the borderline to see a movie of a handsome, dark-skinned chap, much like himself after a scrub down, cleaning the swimming pool in a Californian ponderosa whilst two ladies on sun loungers sip drinks and snigger about his muscles. Or of one of his nature who made the trip years ago and is shown solving all the nasty crimes in a big city and having true-born Americans under his command.

One might quote many examples of the American way of life being displayed to the marginalised to whom a chicken leg is a once a year treat. There are people who come in my pub who wear shirts showing American football and baseball messages. Your message is so strong that it can overthrow the obvious superiority of our football and cricket to your national sports.

In fact, those sports are themselves designed so any plonker can look good in the exercise of them.

But the better you look, justified or not, it will motivate people with few advantages in life to have a taste of it. With some force.

And a Darwinian evolutionist can do nothing other than approve of it. Just as he can do no other than approve of resistance to it by those in possession even when they are the cause of it.

One doesn't argue with a boulder rolling down a mountainside.

You should bring the poor up to your standards so they have no wish to leave home or present yourselves to the world as something of a malodorous dump. Like Bill Burroughs did.



Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 08:53 am
@Foxfyre,
Send them ALL back!. This includes sending back to their ancestors respective homelands anyone and everyone located in North America who was not here originally. Amer-indian or aboriginal natives stay, of course.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 08:55 am
@Ragman,
Don't send them here Rag. Please.

Don't forget we are subjects here.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 09:36 am
@Ragman,
No. The indians have to go back because they crossed the asian, alaskian land bridge years ago. Everyone has to leave!
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 04:19 pm
We need to give some serious thought to who will get the amnesty Obama wants to offer.


Doing the jobs that Coloradans won't do: criminal aliens and brothels
May 7, 10:18 AM

By Frosty Wooldridge

In the past week, Colorado Attorney General John Suthers’ office indicted 15 illegal criminal alien migrants for running prostitution houses in Denver, Longmont and Glenwood Springs under the name Mi Casa Su Casa. That’s Spanish for, “Visit my place for a really good time!”

Those criminal aliens constitute the people that George Bush said, “Do the jobs that Americans won’t do.”

While a U.S. Senator, Barack Obama voted “Yes” for SB 1639 to give 20 million illegal aliens instant citizenship. That would include 50,000 MS 13 gang members, drug smugglers and criminals! It would include brothel pushers in cities around the nation where Mexican nationals enjoy the more decadent things in life"prostitution.

As president, Obama pushes for the same amnesty in 2009.

"This case involved prostitution in an organized crime context," Suthers said. "Each of the 11 brothels mentioned in our indictment were blights on the community. I am glad to see my office along with our partners in local law enforcement shut down this extensive operation.”

A greater question might be raised as to why Suthers refuses to arrest employers of illegal aliens around the State of Colorado that would stop the supply of customers.

Included in the indictments, Sonia Montoya-Cadena, 54, headed of the illegal enterprise. He collected $40 and $50 for 15 minutes of sex by his ‘ladies of the night’. Cadena split the money between the house and the prostitutes.

Cadena set up his “Best little brothels in Colorado” in middle class neighborhoods in Denver, Longmont, Glenwood and more.

The most disconcerting aspect of those houses of ill repute stems from the actions of Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper who provides “Sanctuary City” status for illegal criminal aliens. They may operate in violation of our laws with immunity from arrest, prosecution and deportation. Examples abound such as Francis Hernandez, a man arrested by Denver police 16 times, but let go until he killed two women and three year old Marten Kudlis last fall. You might visit www.cohd23.com in order to see dozens of Colorado victims from criminal aliens given a free pass via Hickenlooper’s “Sanctuary Policy”. The list grows from the famous such as Officer Don Young being executed by criminal alien Garcia-Gomez who was released after three traffic stops to Dale Englerth run over by Francisco Montero who had been caught and let go 11 times before killing Englerth. Justin Goodman, husband and father, suffered death by a criminal alien who T-boned Goodman, and fled the scene.

In the meantime, criminal alien employers enjoy immunity via Ritter, Hickenlooper and Romer. You won’t see any of them pursuing criminal aliens via enforcing our laws. That’s why 700,000 criminal aliens reside and work in Colorado without concern for our laws being enforced against them. They drive cars illegally with no insurance, their kids attend our schools with free breakfast and lunches, they birth their babies at our expense and they fill our prisons after killing our citizens. Criminal aliens cost Coloradans $1.2 billion annually in extra costs over and above any taxes they may pay via purchases. (Source: www.cairco.org)

Colorado citizens face a growing nightmare already realized by California. In that state, anarchy triumphs, gangs rule, crime pays, schools degrade, prisons burst with criminal aliens and California suffers billions of dollars in deficits.

Coloradans must demand that Hickenlooper, Ritter, Romer and the rest of state legislators stand up for law and order. It’s time to arrest, prosecute and deport criminal illegal aliens. It’s time to arrest, prosecute and jail employers of illegal aliens. Enforce the laws to bring Colorado back into line with the U.S. Constitution.

Otherwise, our teens may be corrupted by the "Best little brothels in Colorado" run by criminal aliens!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 04:55 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate, You're doing the same thing conservatives do well; instill fear that is neither isolated to one group or culture. Who do you think ran the biggest brothels and gangs in our country?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 05:06 pm
@Advocate,
It sounds a bit wild Advocate. Mr Gorer said that California was conducting an experiment in a new form of humanity a long while ago but he hadn't said it was anything like your portrayal.

We thought it was skimpier costumes and suchlike.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 05:38 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Quote:
the point is not what dys said or didn't say, the point is that dys said something so it must b e wrong, I assume, spendi, you're familiar with that syndrome.

Very much so. Not that I mind. It discredits those who indulge in the method.


Yes, it does.
And you will not find any examples of me saying that or even suggesting that.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 09:01 pm
@Advocate,
"Mi Casa Su Casa" means my home is your home.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 09:53 pm
Frosty wrote:

While a U.S. Senator, Barack Obama voted “Yes” for SB 1639 to give 20 million illegal aliens instant citizenship. That would include 50,000 MS 13 gang members, drug smugglers and criminals! It would include brothel pushers in cities around the nation where Mexican nationals enjoy the more decadent things in life"prostitution.

As president, Obama pushes for the same amnesty in 2009.


In addition to being a bigoted extremist... Frosty Woodbridge is also a liar and an idiot.

S 1639 Was the Agjobs Bill. It included the Dream Act which gives kids who were were brought here as minors and finished high school a chance to earn citizenship by going to college or the military... as well as border security and harsher penalties for people who produce false documents. This did not give "instant citizenship" to anyone (and violent criminals are specifically excluded any way). It is wrong to equate high school students (some of them quite successful) who want to go to college with gang members.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-1639&tab=summary

Why Advocate (who allegedly voted for Obama) would repeat such vicious lies from right-wingers attacking Obama is difficult to understand.

Obama's plan combines border security with a path to citizenship for people who "whose only crime" is coming illegally (this precludes violent criminal). Obama also has never proposed "instant citizenship". His plan includes a background check (to weed out violent criminals) and a fine.








Obama's immigration plan would allow a path to citizenship to people who, other than immigration issues, have not broken any laws.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 11:52 am
@ebrown p,
Providing a path to citizenship for those already here and who want to become American citizens would make perfectly good sense IF it was not a gross injusticeto all those who waited patiently and are still waiting patiently for legal admission to the country and who did not break the immigration laws. From a purely practical point of view, to reward those who DID break the immigration laws only encourages more of the same activity. It always has. If we wish to break that cycle we have to do it differently.

My solution is to put a workable and efficient guest worker program into place, tell everybody illegal to go home, and come back through that. Those with jobs and ability to support themselves and who have been decent people would have no problem at all doing that and it would cost them a far sight less than the fine some think is a suitable punishment for breaking the immigration laws. We could even include a kind of amnesty by forgiving them their offense and not holding it against them when they applied for legal re-entry so long as they weren't allowed to crowd into line ahead of everybody else.

Nobody, and I mean nobody who came here illegally on purpose should be considered for legal status except in extreme hardship cases, and certainly should not be eligible for citizenship. That is the only way we will be able to discourage illegal immigration.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 11:55 am

Quote:
Obama budget nixes aid for jailing illegal immigrants
By Ian Swanson and Walter Alarkon
Posted: 05/08/09 09:24 AM [ET]

President Obama voted in the Senate to provide additional funding for a program targeted for elimination by his budget that provides states a federal subsidy to offset the costs of jailing illegal immigrants.

Killing the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAPP) would save $400 million, according to Obama's budget for fiscal 2010 released Thursday. It's one of the largest non-defense discretionary cuts proposed in the president's budget.

The program is popular with border-state politicians on Capitol Hill, however, making its elimination a tough sell to lawmakers, particularly from California.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) has repeatedly pushed for additional funding for the program, and lawmakers from other states that have costs associated with illegal aliens have also offered support.

A bipartisan trio of House members from California have drafted a letter urging the House Appropriations subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science and Related Agencies to restore funding for the SCAAP program. The three members, Reps. Mike Honda (D), Adam Schiff (D) and Jerry Lewis, the top Republican on the Appropriations Committee, are also asking the rest of the California House delegation to sign the letter, Honda's office said.

As an Illinois senator, Obama co-sponsored an amendment offered by then-Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), now Obama's secretary of state, that would have provided additional funding for the program. It also would have established a grant program to defray local government healthcare and education costs for non-citizens.

"Each year, the SCAAP program is underfunded," Clinton said in 2006 comments urging support for her amendment. She cited a 2005 Government Accountability Office study that found local governments get only 25 percent of their costs reimbursed through the program.

"Throughout our country and in my state, there are counties and municipalities that are covering the costs of dealing with education, healthcare, and law enforcement without adequate or any federal reimbursement," Clinton said. "So we have left our local and state governments to fend for themselves. They should not be left to bear these costs alone because it is not they who are making federal immigration policy."

Another Obama Cabinet member, Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, then a senator from Colorado, was also a co-sponsor.

Obama voted for the amendment, but it was defeated 43-52.

Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that has called for tougher border security, predicted it is "very unlikely" that Obama's proposal to cut the program will be accepted by Congress. He noted that the Bush administration repeatedly tried to zero out the program, but always ran into opposition in Congress.

"It's hard to justify getting rid of it honestly," Krikorian said. "It's a necessary program because the federal government is reimbursing states and localities for the federal government's own mistakes."

Krikorian, like Clinton in 2006, argued immigration enforcement is a federal responsibility, and if state and local jails are incarcerating illegal immigrants, it is because of failed federal policies.

According to the fiscal 2010 budget, Obama's administration thinks resources used for the program could be better used to enhance federal efforts to curb illegal immigration.

"In place of SCAAP, the administration proposes a comprehensive border enforcement strategy that supports resources for a comprehensive approach to enforcement along the nation's borders that combines law enforcement and prosecutorial efforts to investigate arrest, detail, and prosecute illegal immigrants and other criminals," the budget states.

It emphasizes that the budget will provide funding for 20,000
Border Patrol agents, and $1.4 billion for Immigration and Customs Enforcement programs to support the quick identification and removal of illegal aliens who commit crimes in the U.S.

The Office of Management and Budget did not respond when contacted about this story.
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obama-budget-nixes-aid-for-jailing-illegal-immigrants-2009-05-08.html
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 12:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
Actually it's NOT that "Obama budget nixes aid for jailing illegal immigrants" BUT for "jailing illegal immigrants who are also criminal offenders".
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 02:18 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Providing a path to citizenship for those already here and who want to become American citizens would make perfectly good sense IF it was not a gross injusticeto all those who waited patiently and are still waiting patiently for legal admission to the country and who did not break the immigration laws. From a purely practical point of view, to reward those who DID break the immigration laws only encourages more of the same activity. It always has. If we wish to break that cycle we have to do it differently.
As if you give a rat's ass about the people waiting in line…and it need not change their timeline anyway: If I'm in a line one hundred people deep waiting to get into a Summer Festival; I'll arrive at the entry at exactly the same time, regardless of whether 1, 100, or 1,000 people jump the fence at another point. Why is your virtually every argument so obviously one where the conclusion preceded the rationale?

Foxfyre wrote:
My solution is to put a workable and efficient guest worker program into place, tell everybody illegal to go home, and come back through that. Those with jobs and ability to support themselves and who have been decent people would have no problem at all doing that and it would cost them a far sight less than the fine some think is a suitable punishment for breaking the immigration laws. We could even include a kind of amnesty by forgiving them their offense and not holding it against them when they applied for legal re-entry so long as they weren't allowed to crowd into line ahead of everybody else.
Guest Worker Program= Second Class... there is no way around it… and it solves none of the issues with separating families once love occurs within our boundaries, and it always will. You pay lip service of disdain to the shameful fact that some employers exploit the Illegal Aliens, even as you endorse a systematic, government sponsored initiative to do the same. This is pure hypocrisy.

Further; traveling hundreds of miles, only to turn around and come back to where you started is the most infantile, idiotic suggestion I can fathom. Well, wait… I got one! Maybe we should have them circumnavigate the world before resuming their jobs and caring for their families. Rolling Eyes

Foxfyre wrote:
Nobody, and I mean nobody who came here illegally on purpose should be considered for legal status except in extreme hardship cases, and certainly should not be eligible for citizenship. That is the only way we will be able to discourage illegal immigration.
Really? How about the illegal alien who is witness to a violent crime? You want we should discourage him from coming forward? How about the millions of illegal immigrants who were brought here as children, through no fault of their own? How about the siblings of American citizens who were born to illegal immigrants? And yes, how about their parents? A 10 year old should be deported for the sins of his father? Or should he just have the option to go to a foreign land where he’s never been… or watch his family leave him behind?

Your simplistic thoughts are just that; simplistic. Decency requires the collective to consider the ramifications of your heartless suggestions... and decency requires the collective to reject it.

Why can't you people get over the idiotic idea that you can discourage poor hungry people from relocating to the "Land of Opportunity (with or without the possibility of attaining citizenship)? The inherent stupidity in believing the motivation resides in getting their name on an official U.S. document, moreso than in providing for their families and improving their own lots in life, forces me to question your intelligence.

This natural, most predominant of all motivations, existed long before the U.S. Government began issuing I.D. Cards, and will remain predominant with or without the possibility of obtaining said documents for as long as the United States remains the "Land of Opportunity." Anyone with the slightest ability to empathize with the plight of human beings born south of the border (and most everywhere else, for that matter), should recognize this as a simple matter of fact.

It is only when one begins with a conclusion, and then scrambles to fortify it with some kind of reason, that such idiotic justifications are produced. Do some of the people who come here hope to one day be citizens? Of course. Is that the primary reason millions of people walk away from all they’ve ever known and risk their lives to come here? Of course not… and it takes deliberate obstinacy to even pretend otherwise. This is the realm of idiots, bigots, and a handful of basically decent folks who just haven’t properly thought it through.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 03:28 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
When you have worked with as many LEGAL immigrants as I have and helped them prepare themselves to become citizens; when you have helped as many people as I have helped to enter the country LEGALLY; when you console somebody whose loved one was passed over for legal admission again, then you might have some kind of moral justification to judge what I give a rat's ass about.

Until then, I will tell you what I tell other self-righteous and judgmental types that whatever you assume that I think, want, intend, believe, hope for, etc. comes out of your own little tunnel visioned world.

It is people like YOU who are condemning millions of people to second class status by encouraging them to come here illegally. It is people like me who want those who come to be Americans to have the very best shot to assimilate into American culture and achieve the American dream.

Don't assume that your compassion is superior to anybody elses.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 03:37 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wrote:
Quote:
"...I tell other self-righteous and judgmental types..."


ROFLMAO She misses the irony of her own statement.
dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 03:59 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
when you have helped as many people as I have

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Don't assume that your compassion is superior to anybody elses
0 Replies
 
 

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