50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 08:39 am
If racism is the subject, it is the pro-illegal folks that need to be scrutinized. How come they want their little slaves here to do work that nobody else will do? How often have we heard that, that nobody else will do the work? Well, maybe it is because they aren't being paid wages and being treated like the rest of us. I say, lets end that arrangement and make everybody equal instead of keeping those people on the plantation.

Cut the jobs, they go home and come here legally, and then everyone is treated with dignity. As it is, the untreated problem serves only to deepen the resentments by people that want to obey the law, and we are now seeing the fruit of those resentments. The only logical solution is to enforce the law, for the good of both citizens and illegals.

If we are in a poker game, and some are allowed to play by a different set of rules, what will happen to the attitudes of the players, and what will happen to the game? Simple question. Simple solution. Make the rules the same for all players.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:17 am
okie wrote:
If racism is the subject, it is the pro-illegal folks that need to be scrutinized. How come they want their little slaves here to do work that nobody else will do? How often have we heard that, that nobody else will do the work? Well, maybe it is because they aren't being paid wages and being treated like the rest of us. I say, lets end that arrangement and make everybody equal instead of keeping those people on the plantation.


First of all they are not slaves. They get paid wages. They work along side legal immigrants. They can make a living here and are still able to send money back home. There is large amount of money leaving this country and going to Latin America. So to say they are under slave conditions is outright stupid.

I suppose as an alternative we should not hire illegal immigrants but increase salaries so Americans who would not work for such wages will get the jobs. Well then what do you think will happen to our infrastructure? How much increase in cost will there be to maintain our bridges, roads and everything else local governments have to maintain, as demanded by people like you? Would you be willing to accept the increase in taxes necessary to pay the higher wages?

Depending on the source it is estimated there are 7 to 20 million illegals in America from most all countries in the world. If we had enough jobs for legals only than there should be 7 to 20 million unemployed illegals. However I suspect most all of them are employed at one time or another so if we shipped them all out, very unrealistic I might add, who will take their places? If born Americans are not going to be our "little slaves to do work that nobody else will do" than who?

You should appreciate illegals. They keep the cost down, they do the work "nobody else will do" and they are benefitted by it. By your standards they may get "slave" wages but it's a lot better than what they would get back home.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:44 am
xingu wrote:
okie wrote:
If racism is the subject, it is the pro-illegal folks that need to be scrutinized. How come they want their little slaves here to do work that nobody else will do? How often have we heard that, that nobody else will do the work? Well, maybe it is because they aren't being paid wages and being treated like the rest of us. I say, lets end that arrangement and make everybody equal instead of keeping those people on the plantation.


First of all they are not slaves. They get paid wages. They work along side legal immigrants. They can make a living here and are still able to send money back home. There is large amount of money leaving this country and going to Latin America. So to say they are under slave conditions is outright stupid.

I suppose as an alternative we should not hire illegal immigrants but increase salaries so Americans who would not work for such wages will get the jobs. Well then what do you think will happen to our infrastructure? How much increase in cost will there be to maintain our bridges, roads and everything else local governments have to maintain, as demanded by people like you? Would you be willing to accept the increase in taxes necessary to pay the higher wages?

You have unwittingly admitted the truth of the flaws of your thinking. You have admitted that illegals are essentially propping up our lifestyle because they are willing to work for less than citizens are. You have essentially admitted that I am correct, and it is a point that is abundantly obvious. Yes, my opinion is that we should be willing to pay the wages necessary to attract labor from legal citizens, and immigrants should come here legally and be treated equally. Unequal treatment is essentially wrong and prejudiced. We should be ashamed of the fact that this should even need to be debated.

Quote:
Depending on the source it is estimated there are 7 to 20 million illegals in America from most all countries in the world. If we had enough jobs for legals only than there should be 7 to 20 million unemployed illegals. However I suspect most all of them are employed at one time or another so if we shipped them all out, very unrealistic I might add, who will take their places? If born Americans are not going to be our "little slaves to do work that nobody else will do" than who?

You should appreciate illegals. They keep the cost down, they do the work "nobody else will do" and they are benefitted by it. By your standards they may get "slave" wages but it's a lot better than what they would get back home.

To correct your misconceptions, it is not me that wishes to keep them down. It is you. I want everybody to be here legally. We have no need to ship all of them out. If we punish employers, as has been pointed out numerous times, and require citizenship to gain employment, many or possibly most will return to their country of origin on their own. We could provide free transportation, and we could provide the advice and instructions on how to apply for legal entry. A non-criminal record and other screening must be undergone, just as the laws have always specified, as is totally reasonable by the way. As this process would be gradual, there would not be a huge shock to the labor force, but wages probably would need to rise to help cover the slight shock. I am proposing a very healthy legal immigration program whereby the people that have a good record and qualify can then gain full citizenship over time and of course all the full rights and respect as equals to everyone else.

In the meantime, criminals, drug dealers, gangsters, and potential terrorists can be weeded out with time. We will never catch all, but the atmosphere of more observance of laws will make it easier. Simply enforcing the law will lower the resentments that have been building for a good long time now, and politicians could once again gain some respect for actually enforcing the laws that they take an oath to uphold when they go to Washington.

And the illegals that are here now, once they are able to access the system in a legal way, will be proud and full equal participants in our society. Doing it in any other way will be very negative in terms of future effects upon society and the country.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:48 am
So in order to maintain the higher wages you say we must pay your willing to accept higher taxes and higher cost of goods?
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:50 am
okie wrote:
Cut the jobs, they go home and come here legally, and then everyone is treated with dignity.


Dear illegal immigrants,

please stop working and go home right now. We cannot find you, since you have no contracts and it is unlikely your employers will rat you out. Please go home.... surely you can spare a few thousand dollars to move back home and then apply for legal permit, wait months, and then travel back to the States... We depend upon your conscience, thank you in advance for your cooperation.
Hugs,
...
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:54 am
dagmaraka wrote:
okie wrote:
Cut the jobs, they go home and come here legally, and then everyone is treated with dignity.


Dear illegal immigrants,

please stop working and go home right now. We cannot find you, since you have no contracts and it is unlikely your employers will rat you out. Please go home.... surely you can spare a few thousand dollars to move back home and then apply for legal permit, wait months, and then travel back to the States... We depend upon your conscience, thank you in advance for your cooperation.
Hugs,
...

"... and if you do all that, we'll even treat you with dignity. Honest."
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:54 am
I am in favor of the free market determining what wages will be paid, and what taxes will be paid to do it, based on everyone in the game being legal and all playing by the same rules. I suspect wages might increase, but I have no problem with that, if the market dictates. I don't know what will happen with taxes. If building roads, etc., as you say, costs more, fine, but it might be offset by all the goods and services now provided freely to illegals that will then be curtailed.

The beauty of my plan is simple. Legal and enforce the law. Lower the resentments of people that see the inequities, both citizens and illegals. Make illegals come here legally, they become proud citizens, and they will have wanted to become citizens, and we don't have people here just making some money to send back home. Yes if it costs more, I am willing to pay it. Self respect demands it and we should do it for the future and well being of the country.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:55 am
By the way okie, I still would like to know who will work those jobs nobody else will work if we export all those illegals, what is it; 7 to 20 million?


With that many illegals in this country you had better learn to live with it.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:56 am
Thomas wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
okie wrote:
Cut the jobs, they go home and come here legally, and then everyone is treated with dignity.


Dear illegal immigrants,

please stop working and go home right now. We cannot find you, since you have no contracts and it is unlikely your employers will rat you out. Please go home.... surely you can spare a few thousand dollars to move back home and then apply for legal permit, wait months, and then travel back to the States... We depend upon your conscience, thank you in advance for your cooperation.
Hugs,
...

"... and if you do all that, we'll even treat you with dignity. Honest."

It goes both ways, Thomas. If I come to Germany illegally, is that respecting your country?

Get off it you bleeding hearts. Do any of you ever have the gumption to stand up for any principle ever? It doesn't look like it.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:58 am
xingu wrote:
By the way okie, I still would like to know who will work those jobs nobody else will work if we export all those illegals, what is it; 7 to 20 million?


With that many illegals in this country you had better learn to live with it.

How about you, xingu? Are you willing to get your hands dirty? Or would you rather your little slaves to work doing stuff that is beneath your dignity?

I've about had it with pompous libs.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 09:59 am
okie wrote:
I am in favor of the free market determining what wages will be paid, and what taxes will be paid to do it, based on everyone in the game being legal and all playing by the same rules. I suspect wages might increase, but I have no problem with that, if the market dictates.

If you support market solutions so much, why stop there? Why not adopt a near-complete laissez faire immigration policy (with narrow exceptions for criminals, carriers of infectuous diseases, and other undesirables) and let the market decide where people end up living? It's what America did up till 1921, and the nation thrived during those first 145 years.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 10:03 am
To repeat the same thing, I am in favor of a very liberal immigration policy. I want alot of immigrants from Mexico and from all over the world. Alot of those people have a better work ethic than the spoiled rotten libs that live here, that believe they should be given everything on a silver platter. But the world is far more populated than before 1921, and I don't think the country can handle every single person that wants to come here, so we will have to limit it.

Running the country reasonably and setting limits is a free market, Thomas, just as individual consumers make decisions, or just like homeowners make decisions about how many people their home can accommodate.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 10:46 am
Literally speaking, the illegals are not slaves. However, to a large extent, they may be described as serfs.

Main Entry: serf
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 's&rf
Etymology: French, from Old French, from Latin servus slave
: a member of a servile feudal class bound to the soil and subject to the will of his lord
- serf·age/'s&r-fij/ noun
- serf·dom/'s&rf-d&m, -t&m/ noun

Merriam-Webster
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 10:51 am
okie wrote:
Get off it you bleeding hearts. Do any of you ever have the gumption to stand up for any principle ever? It doesn't look like it.


bleeding hearts? how about realism? how do you propose to go about it? army? sorry, it's in iraq and afghanistan. begging? no? then tell me how.

as for principles - yes i do stan up for what i believe in. it's part of my day to day job. that's what i chose. you?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 10:56 am
Advocate wrote:
Literally speaking, the illegals are not slaves. However, to a large extent, they may be described as serfs.


Certainly your M-W definition is correct and may be okay for a language dictionary entry but not at all about "serfs" as a term used e.g. in history.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 10:57 am
SF to Issue ID Cards to Immigrants
Quote:

"I think it's admitting the reality of the situation that we depend on, our tourist and hotel industry depends on, a labor force that's supplied by, for lack of a better term, undocumented residents," said Tom Ammiano, the supervisor who sponsored the bill.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 10:59 am
THis is already a step into the right direction, Walter.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 11:05 am
Tom Ammiano and his band of supervisors are the biggest bunch of idiots on the planet. This is what happens when you eat too much tofu and sleep with too many members of the same sex.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 11:09 am
okie wrote:
I am in favor of the free market determining what wages will be paid, and what taxes will be paid to do it, based on everyone in the game being legal and all playing by the same rules. I suspect wages might increase, but I have no problem with that, if the market dictates. I don't know what will happen with taxes. If building roads, etc., as you say, costs more, fine, but it might be offset by all the goods and services now provided freely to illegals that will then be curtailed.

The beauty of my plan is simple. Legal and enforce the law. Lower the resentments of people that see the inequities, both citizens and illegals. Make illegals come here legally, they become proud citizens, and they will have wanted to become citizens, and we don't have people here just making some money to send back home. Yes if it costs more, I am willing to pay it. Self respect demands it and we should do it for the future and well being of the country.


that seems simple to you? it seems entirely unprobable to me. it's nice that you have no problems with paying for this 'plan', but nobody will ask you. the american citizenry will not pay. and who tries to make them, will sink.
"lower the resentments" - that's a plan?
how do you go about enforcing the law? should we send some commandos around from shop to shop, service to service? and who will pay for that? also you? if we do not do that, how do you propose to even find out who is violating the law?
how much would this plan end up costing? would it be less than legalizing those immigrants that are demonstrably working in the u.s.? the way for example france does every now and then? if yes, i'm all for it, but i doubt it.

i do agree that wages should be determined by the market and that the workers should be legal. but 'how to get there' differs. "sending them home" strikes me as unrealistic, avoidance of dealing wih the situation here and now.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 11:14 am
cjhsa wrote:
Tom Ammiano and his band of supervisors are the biggest bunch of idiots on the planet. This is what happens when you eat too much tofu and sleep with too many members of the same sex.


wow, what a sound argument...
0 Replies
 
 

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