Exactly the point I am trying to make Hokie...
People who are given access to education so they can have educational success... will also have financial success. The issue has nothing to do with ethnicity (as educated people are usually successful).
The issue is that illegal immigrants, and recent legal immigrants at the bottom of the scale, aren't having educational success, and this keeps them from fully contributing to society. As this study suggests, this is a particular problem in the Mexican immigrant community.
A path to citizenship (and in-state tuition) is a solution to this problem. It makes it easier to take the to education and success.
ebrown_p wrote:Exactly the point I am trying to make Hokie...
People who are given access to education so they can have educational success... will also have financial success. The issue has nothing to do with ethnicity (as educated people are usually successful).
Mexican immigrants are given the same access to education as non-Mexican immigrants, yet over generations continue to have a disproportionately higher drop-out rate (see Table 2).
Quote:The issue is that illegal immigrants, and recent legal immigrants at the bottom of the scale, aren't having educational success, and this keeps them from fully contributing to society.
Not true. The drop-out rate for Mexican immigrants in 2000 was 63%. Contrast that with the 17% drop-out rate for non-Mexican immigrants in the same time period. (See Table 2).
Quote:As this study suggests, this is a particular problem in the Mexican immigrant community.
Which was the point of my answer to Freeduck, who contends that "they give much more than they receive" (paraphrasing here).
Quote:A path to citizenship (and in-state tuition) is a solution to this problem. It makes it easier to take the to education and success.
Except that, as the study shows, this is not true.
Quote:There is little evidence that the influx of Mexican-born workers into the United States is slowing down as we enter a new century, and there is also little evidence that the skill composition of the Mexican influx is changing from what it has been in the past. The continued
migration of Mexican workers into the United States, and the inevitable rapid growth of the group of native-born workers of Mexican ancestry, suggest that the economic consequences of this low-skill migration influx are only beginning to be felt.
So, you are saying that there is something about being Mexican that makes Mexicans unlikely to have educational success even when they are given equal opportunity?
ebrown_p wrote:So, you are saying that there is something about being Mexican that makes Mexicans unlikely to have educational success even when they are given equal opportunity?
No. I believe it's Messrs. Borjas and Katz (along with several pages of credible sources, including statistics from the U.S. Census Bureau, the U.S. Department of Commerce and the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service) who are saying that.
HokieBird wrote:ebrown_p wrote:So, you are saying that there is something about being Mexican that makes Mexicans unlikely to have educational success even when they are given equal opportunity?
No. I believe it's Messrs. Borjas and Katz (along with several pages of credible sources, including statistics from the U.S. Census Bureau, the U.S. Department of Commerce and the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service) who are saying that.
Well I can't argue with that then. (You obviously haven't read or understood the report.)
ebrown_p wrote:So, you are saying that there is something about being Mexican that makes Mexicans unlikely to have educational success even when they are given equal opportunity?
Amazing, isn't it? I wonder if it occurred to anyone producing 'study after study' (that Hokiebird's read) that: people who are forced to live in the shadows are considerably less likely to be able to foot the bill for out of state tuition to send their kids to the schools in their state. Or that they're WAY more likely to need those kids to work sooner to help support the family... which is pretty traditional in most of the cultures of the world. I wonder what emphasis these studies place on the increased burdens overcoming bigotry has on financial success. How do they explain Black people performing even worse as a whole in virtually every category? ... and what ingenious measure do they suggest to adjust that?
Quote of the Century
"The American Indians found out what happens
when you don't control immigration."
Great quote, Advocate. Yes, we did.
e-brown, have you ever stated exactly how you think all of this should be handled point by point? Can you list it out in one post or link me to where you might have done so in the past?
ebrown_p wrote:HokieBird wrote:ebrown_p wrote:So, you are saying that there is something about being Mexican that makes Mexicans unlikely to have educational success even when they are given equal opportunity?
No. I believe it's Messrs. Borjas and Katz (along with several pages of credible sources, including statistics from the U.S. Census Bureau, the U.S. Department of Commerce and the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service) who are saying that.
Well I can't argue with that then. (You obviously haven't read or understood the report.)
I both read it and understood the report.
The term "native-born population" used by the authors of the report refer to both white
and black. They provided evidence (not just theories or suggestions) that the Mexican immigrants who have entered the U.S. starting in the second half of the twentieth century are poorly educated and remain so for several generations.
They provided data and reference sources re the educational attainment of these immigrants that have been available since the mid-70's and these data reveal low rates of educational attainment by Mexican immigrants compared with the native-born population (white
and
black).
OCCOM BILL wrote:Or that they're WAY more likely to need those kids to work sooner to help support the family... which is pretty traditional in most of the cultures of the world.
Calm yourself. They also provide data contrasting these findings with the rates of educational attainment by
non-Mexican immigrants (unless you're saying "people who are forced to live in the shadows are considerably less likely to be able to foot the bill for out of state tuition to send their kids to the schools in their state" applies only to Mexican-immigrants.)
I see Advocate has recovered from his embarrassment over
his last bout with idiocy on this thread. Will he now show the integrity to own up to his error and admit how utterly and completely wrong he was? I doubt it.
Advocate wrote:Quote of the Century
"The American Indians found out what happens
when you don't control immigration."
Quote of the Century?
Do you think peddling the irrational fear of a Mexican takeover of the United States is anything but mindless, bigotry-driven, fear-mongering? What's the word that best describes the rationale behind trying to encourage irrational fears of people who are different? Oh ya; BIGOTRY.
HokieBird wrote:FreeDuck wrote:I know what you were referring to. There's just no comparison. We get way more out of them then they get in "services".
Depends on who you mean by "them".
Most of the "illegals" from Mexico are low-skilled and uneducated, yet use public services in the form of public education, fire and police protection, government assistance, etc. Consequently, a "negative" impact on the economy.
Not necessarily. These services benefit from a certain economy of scale and if you are going to assert that Mexican immigration (illegality isn't referenced in the study you quote so I'll leave it out) causes the costs of these services to rise across the board then you'll need to demonstrate at what point that becomes true. How many Mexicans does it take to the increase the cost of a fire station?
When I said we get more from them than they get from us I meant that their being here drives down prices and fattens the wallets of industry.
Quote:Contrast that to well-educated, English-speaking immigrants (a "positive" impact on the economy).
Quote:Second, as we will document, Mexican immigrants tend to have demographic and
socioeconomic characteristics that differ significantly not only from that of the native-born
population, but from that of other immigrants as well. In general, the economic performance of
Mexican immigrants lags significantly behind that of other immigrant groups and this lagging
performance is, to an important extent, transmitted to future generations of native-born workers
of Mexican ancestry.
http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~GBorjas/Papers/w11281.pdf
You haven't, and as far as I have read, the paper also hasn't, shown that higher education = higher economic contribution. The paper demonstrates that Mexican immigrants by and large come to this country with a lower education level than other immigrants and native born workers, and because of that they MAKE less money than the rest of us. I'm still reading it (it's fairly long) but it also makes the point that they drive down prices of eating out and domestic services, which many of us take full advantage of. So it's not as straight forward as you would have us believe.
ebrown_p wrote:The obvious answer for this is to make sure they have access to a good education through college.
Studies strongly correlate college achievement with economic success (regardless of ethnicity).
This is why a path to citizenship (and in-state tuition rates) are such good ideas.
Would you support in-state tuition rates for those citizens that live outside Mass?
I live in KY,can I get the in-state tuition rates if I go to school in Mass?
If not,why not?
Bill, first, I was on a trip, and was not avoiding this thread. Second, I don't recall being wrong about anything. Third, your constant use of the term "bigot" shows your ignorance and desperation.
I, and most opposed to amnesty and open borders, are not opposed to Mexicans coming here legally. However, we do opposed to illegals coming from anywhere in the world. They hurt our country in many ways, and they flout the law. We are supposed to be a country of laws.
Stop being such an obnoxious jerk.
Advocate wrote: Second, I don't recall being wrong about anything.
Click the link I provided. It's like a wormhole to your foolishness.
Browne
What next should we afford those who arrived in the US like thieves in the night. The benefits of Affirmative Action?
The cost of fire protection doesn't radically increase with more immigrants, legal or non. Nor police protection, really, any more than an increase in population on the same part of the socio-economic scale (which is to say, dirt poor).
Education gets a HELL of a lot more expensive, though. You're adding a lot of kids to the school system - it's not unusual for school districts here in Houston to grow 5% a year, every year. But the sort of taxes that even an illegal immigrant pays, schools do not really receive - they're funded from property taxes. Not only that, but the added student population is almost universally poor at English, so you have to hire a lot of bilingual teachers, and watch your standardized test scores free-fall like Bush polling numbers, even though you're working five times as hard as a suburban district with very few immigrants. (THEN you get the fun of dealing with parents who don't speak English, who won't fill out paperwork, who move every year and don't bother telling the school the new address...)
They also add significantly to local government medical services costs. The vast majority of illegal aliens are uninsured (of course), and so they use city/county clinics and emergency rooms as their sole source of care. The cost adds up pretty rapidly. I mean, you can't just turn people away, but at the same time, it definitely affects the quality of care for everybody when half the people in the waiting room for an emergency ward have a frickin' cold.
Finally, virtually no illegal immigrants have auto insurance, so when one of them hits your car, your insurance has to pay. (Oh, they have insurance CARDS, of course. But if you call the insurance company, they'll never have heard of the person, because it's just a fake card. Way cheaper than actually carrying insurance, don't you know!) Happened to more than one friend of mine...
Agree with the auto insurance bit. Jerks.
Disagree with this:
Quote:But the sort of taxes that even an illegal immigrant pays, schools do not really receive - they're funded from property taxes.
Wrongo - most illegals rent, and the property taxes are paid by the property owner. They would pay the same taxes no matter who was living there - the owner passes the cost along as part of rent. They pay it just like anyone else who rents, pays. So their presence doesn't reduce the amount of property taxes paid, and at the same time, making them legal doesn't increase the amount - they aren't going to go out and buy a house.
Maybe if Texas didn't tie school funding TO property tax lowering, why, they wouldn't have such issues
Cycloptichorn
Good points all, Avatar. While Cyclopticorn is right that they pay rent, there does tend to be higher occupancy per property and schools do bear a certain burden if they happen to be in areas with higher concentrations of non-English speaking immigrants, legal or not.
Naturally, the property tax is still paid on properties rented by illegal immigrants.
My point is that the cost of providing education services goes up (because the affected areas have significantly larger than "natural" increases in population, and because educating a poor non-English-speaking child is substantially more expensive than educating a middle-class student with good English skills. Also substantially more challenging.
So the income stays the same, but the expenses rise - that puts a big pinch on school districts. And because we're talking about a population that is uncommonly transient, it's difficult to estimate future needs - essentially, even if you had the money you needed for it, you're never going to keep up on construction efforts. So you'll have kids being educated in trailers all over the place...
I think, though, the "jerks" comment is kind of salient here. We all manage, more or less, to get along in society precisely because we agree on certain rules to follow - even if we don't agree about all of those rules, the legitimacy of those rules isn't really in question. But an illegal immigrant is starting from a completely different position - that the law should, in fact, be ignored whenever it's inconvenient. Certainly, if you're an illegal immigrant, that's a rational statement - you're a lawbreaker whether you follow the rest of the laws or not, so why follow the rest of the laws? But it's annoying as hell to everybody else in society. I have to obey the laws, and if I don't and I get caught, I pay the penalty in those laws. If Jose Average breaks the laws and doesn't get caught, why shouldn't I do the same thing? I mean, I could fake a car insurance form way better than he could! ;p
mysteryman wrote:ebrown_p wrote:The obvious answer for this is to make sure they have access to a good education through college.
Studies strongly correlate college achievement with economic success (regardless of ethnicity).
This is why a path to citizenship (and in-state tuition rates) are such good ideas.
Would you support in-state tuition rates for those citizens that live outside Mass?
I live in KY,can I get the in-state tuition rates if I go to school in Mass?
If not,why not?
This is among the objections I don't even understand. Why would anyone object to in-state tuition rates to someone who DOES reside in that state, let alone turn around and then bitch and moan about illegals contributing less for lack of an education? Hello....
