You mean reside illegally?
Avatar ADV wrote:But an illegal immigrant is starting from a completely different position - that the law should, in fact, be ignored whenever it's inconvenient.
I think it has to do with a hell of lot more than inconvenience. Being poor is certainly inconvenient, but that's an understatement. And I think it's fairly safe to say that most illegal immigrants come because they are poor and there isn't really a way to come here legally when you don't have any money.
But that doesn't have a lot to do with the point you were making about schools, which after all, would be valid even if the immigrants were legal, right? So let's frame this debate for what it is. We have a problem dealing with the influx, period. Let's not pretend to be all up in arms because somebody walked across a line when somewhere it's written that they're not allowed to.
Avatar ADV wrote:The cost of fire protection doesn't radically increase with more immigrants, legal or non. Nor police protection, really, any more than an increase in population on the same part of the socio-economic scale (which is to say, dirt poor).
Right, police and fire protection, along with courts, parks, sanitation, and food safety and health inspections are considered population-based programs and generally provide services to a whole group or community.
Studying the fiscal costs of immigration, the National Academy of Sciences uses the term "congestible goods", showing that when the population increases (much like adding a lot of kids to the school system) and service remains fixed, a program will become "congested".
The remedy would be adding more police and firefighters, much like the schools would have to add more teachers to keep pace with a large influx of immigrants.
Right, but while you can just add another firefighter, it's harder to just add teachers (and to a lesser extent, police officers.) Specifically, you don't just need another warm body - you need another warm body who speaks Spanish, which is substantially more expensive.
Teaching (and police work, and a whole lot of other government services) become more difficult when people don't speak the language. It's even more difficult when you're dealing with people who can't give you basic information - like "where do you live"?
The idea that illegal immigrants don't do certain things because they're poor is only half correct. A big part of the problem is that they have trouble investing in the expenses that make people able to take care of themselves, more or less - precisely because of their illegal status, they simply can't spend money on things where they might need to resort to the judicial system in order to gain the benefits. So an illegal immigrant would, in some ways, be stupid to pay for car insurance - there's no guarantee that it would pay them even if they did, and every chance that instead of paying them, their company would just call up Immigration and say "hey, these guys need to be deported". Same for health insurance. Same for retirement savings. Even something as simple as getting a bank account is pretty tricky if you're working off forged ID papers...
Legal immigrants don't have that problem - they have legitimate ID, no reason to hide from people, access to the judicial system, access to jobs that allow them to move up in life. The government gets to know that hey, there's this guy there, which is useful for all sorts of applications, from allocating expenses to being able to phone his next of kin if he turns up dead in an alley somewhere.
In a very real way, it would help significantly if we had the same number of immigrants each year, but all of them legal, instead of some legal and some other amount illegal. This is one of the reasons amnesty would genuinely have a positive effect - granted that we're not going to deport them all, it's actually quite counterproductive to have a huge illegal population sitting around.
Negative effect of amnesty, of course, is the encouragement to the next batch - "come on and hang on until there's enough of you to force another amnesty", and this ain't the first one in that cycle. If I had any confidence that we'd actually get our heads together on border security, I'd say it's worth it - it's a whole lot less disruptive to catch an illegal immigrant at or near the border, rather than wait until they've settled down.
Avatar ADV wrote:But an illegal immigrant is starting from a completely different position - that the law should, in fact, be ignored whenever it's inconvenient.
I agree an illegal immigrant is starting from a different position. That position would be "you can't play by the rules if the rules say you can't play." That's why I detest poor Mexicans illegaly immigrating about as much as black seamstresses illegally sitting in the middle of the bus in 1955 Montgomery.
The same is not true for Germans, where US immigration rules say "you can play, and here is how to play ...". That's why I, being a middle-class German immigrant and not a poor Mexican immigrant, play by the rules. Because America lets me. There are qualifications unworthy of going into here. But this is the big difference between rules that say you can play and rules that say you can't.
I have one question to ask. i dont even need you to answer turthfully.
If YOU were born in mexico, would you stay there living in filth, or break a law and swim your ass across a river to a higher standard of living and a government not corrupt beyond belief?
i bet every person that is pro-deportation totally evades the question.
but do you best to keep people from living better lives.
OGIONIK wrote:I have one question to ask. i dont even need you to answer turthfully.
If YOU were born in mexico, would you stay there living in filth, or break a law and swim your ass across a river to a higher standard of living and a government not corrupt beyond belief?
i bet every person that is pro-deportation totally evades the question.
but do you best to keep people from living better lives.
If you were born in poverty and there was close by a very rich person living in a mansion. Would you break into his house and set up housekeeping? If you did what would you expect to happen. You would be given squatters rights or get booted out on your ass.
lol, that is question evasion my friend. what i would do is ROB THAT ************. i dont like starving.
mansion? country? two different things my friend.
I think what would happen is that the person who owned the mansion, would simply ask me to clean his house for under the table wages.
using my creative imagination like you, im sure you understand my reply.
ty for proving me right though.
au1929 wrote:Browne
What next should we afford those who arrived in the US like thieves in the night. The benefits of Affirmative Action?
You can be sure that the illegals will include affirmative action as part of their RIGHTS. Further, we shouldn't be surprised when they mount major civil disruption, similar to what the French experienced.
The term "La Raza" has its origins in early 20th century Latin American literature and translates into English most closely as "the people," or, according to some scholars, "the Hispanic people of the New World." The term was coined by Mexican scholar José Vasconcelos to reflect the fact that the people of Latin America are a mixture of many of the world's races, cultures, and religions. Some people have mistranslated "La Raza" to mean "The Race," implying that it is a term meant to exclude others. In fact, the full term coined by Vasconcelos, "La Raza Cósmica," meaning the "cosmic people," was developed to reflect not purity but the mixture inherent in the Hispanic people. This is an inclusive concept, meaning that Hispanics share with all other peoples of the world a common heritage and destiny.
THE COMING
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a crisis that could send oil soaring to $150 a barrel - and beyond. But
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Imagine a day - not long from now - when Mexico, America's No. 2 oil
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OGIONIK wrote:lol, that is question evasion my friend. what i would do is ROB THAT ****. i dont like starving.
mansion? country? two different things my friend.
I think what would happen is that the person who owned the mansion, would simply ask me to clean his house for under the table wages.
using my creative imagination like you, im sure you understand my reply.
ty for proving me right though.
No evasion but a perfect analogy. As for would I act like the theives who came in the night or made an effort to improve conditions in my own country I can not say.
I could never understand how the people in the US were able to create a nation as great as the US,,when those people south of our border could not even create a livable one. Is it the water?
au1929 wrote: If you were born in poverty and there was close by a very rich person living in a mansion. Would you break into his house and set up housekeeping? If you did what would you expect to happen. You would be given squatters rights or get booted out on your ass.
This is a bad analogy to the extent that they are paying for their rent, and working for their pay. Would you be fine if the state simply stopped providing schooling, social security and such, but did let them stay?
dyslexia wrote:The term "La Raza" has its origins in early 20th century Latin American literature and translates into English most closely as "the people," or, according to some scholars, "the Hispanic people of the New World." The term was coined by Mexican scholar José Vasconcelos to reflect the fact that the people of Latin America are a mixture of many of the world's races, cultures, and religions. Some people have mistranslated "La Raza" to mean "The Race," implying that it is a term meant to exclude others. In fact, the full term coined by Vasconcelos, "La Raza Cósmica," meaning the "cosmic people," was developed to reflect not purity but the mixture inherent in the Hispanic people. This is an inclusive concept, meaning that Hispanics share with all other peoples of the world a common heritage and destiny.
The link to that definition is from the FAQ on
La Raza's website.
Babelfish translates it (Spanish to English) as "The Race".
Thomas
Question, If you owned the mansion would you invite them to stay or toss them out?
As for paying for their stay. That is indeed questionable. Based upon all the burden they place the areas in which they live. In many instances it is negative balance.
What gauls me most of all is that they have the audacity to demand and demonstrate for their "rights". What imaginary rights do they have?
HokieBird wrote:dyslexia wrote:The term "La Raza" has its origins in early 20th century Latin American literature and translates into English most closely as "the people," or, according to some scholars, "the Hispanic people of the New World." The term was coined by Mexican scholar José Vasconcelos to reflect the fact that the people of Latin America are a mixture of many of the world's races, cultures, and religions. Some people have mistranslated "La Raza" to mean "The Race," implying that it is a term meant to exclude others. In fact, the full term coined by Vasconcelos, "La Raza Cósmica," meaning the "cosmic people," was developed to reflect not purity but the mixture inherent in the Hispanic people. This is an inclusive concept, meaning that Hispanics share with all other peoples of the world a common heritage and destiny.
The link to that definition is from the FAQ on
La Raza's website.
Babelfish translates it (Spanish to English) as "The Race".
La Raza (Mexican Spanish IPA: [la ˈrasa]; Castillian Spanish IPA: [la ˈraza]) is a Spanish-language phrase which, while literally translated as "the race", is more often used as a synonym of "el pueblo" or "la gente", both of which mean "the people".
Interesting; sorry I have no Spanish. Although gente (Italian) or gens (French) appear to be related to "la raza", they're obviously different words, whereas "race" is the same word, etymologically speaking.
Is the connotation similar to the German "das Volk"? Same word as the English "folk" but different idea.
Spanish to German:
la raza = der Menschenschlag (where the German word probably translates, for lack of a better word, to something like "race" in English)(the German word "Rasse" would be the literal translation of the English word "race")
la gente = das Volk
seriously, I think there is really no good term in English for the Spanish word "raza"
language is always interesting to those who are rigidly anal. Sometimes americans go to a garage sale but never to buy a garage.
