What should be done about illegal immigration?

There are upsides and downsides to every situation and argument. We do benefit from the extra labor and peoples here, but there is also crime, exploitation, death, danger, and poverty that is a result of illegal immigration as well.

I am well aware that the bill currently being proposed legalizes those who are here, and makes it easier to get in if you want to work here; that's one of the reasons I support it.

I disagree with this:

Quote:

Cyclo:
I see no reason to hold Bush et. al responsible for following the laws, but not others. The Rule of Law is what makes our nation strong, and we shouldn't abandon that.

ci: Your mixing apples and oranges here. When Bush breaks the laws, he hurts our Constitution and Bill of Rights, kills thousands of innocents, and spends billions for a cause he still can't articulate. When illegals break the laws, they fill necessary job shortages in our country.

It is not 'apples and oranges.' Either you expect people to follow the law, or you don't. I expect them to, so it would be quite hypocritical not to go after all those who break it, not just those I disagree with politically.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo:
There are upsides and downsides to every situation and argument. We do benefit from the extra labor and peoples here, but there is also crime, exploitation, death, danger, and poverty that is a result of illegal immigration as well.

Sounds to me like this is common with or without illegal immigrants - to any country.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Hokie wrote: Why is it wrong to think that it's in the Mexican people's best interest to solve the underlying problems that cause them to come north illegally?

Have you ever tried to solve the underlying problems we now have in the US? How about the deadlock between Bush and congress/majority of Americans on Iraq?

C'mon, man; just because something is difficult to do doesn't mean it isn't worth trying to do.

You keep peddling this nonsense, Cyclops, but, what have YOU actually done? I seem to remember you dedicating your life to changing this country, and subsequently running your mouth with much conviction for a couple of days... but what have you actually done?

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Hokie wrote: Why is it wrong to think that it's in the Mexican people's best interest to solve the underlying problems that cause them to come north illegally?

Have you ever tried to solve the underlying problems we now have in the US? How about the deadlock between Bush and congress/majority of Americans on Iraq?

C'mon, man; just because something is difficult to do doesn't mean it isn't worth trying to do.
You keep peddling this nonsense, Cyclops, but, what have YOU actually done? I seem to remember you dedicating your life to changing this country, and subsequently running your mouth with much conviction for a couple of days... but what have you actually done?

Not enough, but here's a quick rundown:

I've started to contribute more time and money to my party. I bought a Democracy Bond and have been happily been donating money to the DNC for some time now. When I moved to Berkeley, I got active in the local dem. party and spend about 15 hours a month going door to door talking to people. I write letters to my congressmen and women, to my Senator, and to the WH a few times a month. I keep up with the news and attempt to influence opinion online through my reading and writing. Is it enough? It's something, and more than I was doing before.

I readily admit that after the 2004 elections, I had some hot words, which I regret in retrospect.

None of this is material to my position whatsoever, I might add. If things went south in the US, I would stay and fight to change them.

Noone has given me a convincing reason why we shouldn't have laws which can be enforced and should be enforced. I refuse to let this issue be dominated by the bigots on one side, and the bleeding hearts on the other.

Cycloptichorn

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btw, the position I support - enforcing our currently existing laws, cracking down on employers who hire illegals, giving a path to citizenship for all who are here, and closing the borders - is supported by the vast majority of Americans. It is not a crazy thing to want the borders closed, but a sane and perfectly normal thing. It is not a crazy thing to want to legalize those who are here, but a sane and normal thing.

None of my positions are extreme in the slightest.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo, You've only identified the "bigots" and "bleeding hearts." What ever happened to common sense, respect for our fellow man, and some American generosity to share in our dream?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo, You've only identified the "bigots" and "bleeding hearts." What ever happened to common sense, respect for our fellow man, and some American generosity to share in our dream?

That's the middle road, and exactly the one I support: Increase legal immigration, make the people who are here legal, and close the borders.

'American Generosity' doesn't mean that we can't have secured borders.

'Common Sense' states that we need these people to work, fine, legalize the ones who are here and increase guest worker programs. But 'common sense' will also tell you that it's better for the country to know who is coming and going, and that requires closed borders.

Why exactly, if we are going to legalize those who are here, and increase opportunities for legal immigration and work visas for those who wish to work here, are you so against closing the borders? I have yet to hear a good argument for this.

Cycloptichorn

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At least some Europeans may doubt that "it is not a crazy thing to want the borders closed, but a sane and perfectly normal thing".

I blong to those who believe that the problem lies not in having more men in jeeps and helicopters along the borders (or a fence in case of the USA) but instead in combating the underlying social causes for the mass movement of people.

I know that some Europeans would like more police-type measures, though.
(But even those still like our concept of open borders :wink: )

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

At least some Europeans may doubt that "it is not a crazy thing to want the borders closed, but a sane and perfectly normal thing".

I blong to those who believe that the problem lies not in having more men in jeeps and helicopters along the borders (or a fence in case of the USA) but instead in combating the underlying social causes for the mass movement of people.

I know that some Europeans would like more police-type measures, though.
(But even those still like our concept of open borders :wink: )

I agree with this as well, Walter; I support combating the social problems in the various Hispanic countries who contribute to our illegal immigration through both direct and indirect aid.

It's a wonderful long-term goal; but it will take a tremendous amount of effort, the vast majority of which must come from the interior of the societies themselves. We cannot mandate change on other countries; we can only affect those things which are under control, and one of them is the status of our border and immigration policy.

Illegal immigration serves as a release-valve and money-making device for the countries who encourage their disaffected populace to move to America, and then send money back into the economy of Mexico. It neatly handles their side of the problem. I'm not for supporting this.

It is inconceivable to me that people don't expect anyone to attempt to make their own country better, at all. I think it's a reflection of the laziness we've become accustomed to here in America.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo, A 20 feet cement fence with barbed/electric wires around the US is not only ugly in terms of sight, but it's a narrow-minded way to control our borders.

Your work to change the politics in our country is admirable, but not everyone has the time nor money to dedicate to causes that are controversial from either sides of the isle. It's called, being realistic.

I vote in all elections; that's my contribution to our democratic republic. I have also volunteered on nonprofit organization boards, and the Santa Clara Grand Jury. I also served in a criminal trial that lasted for three months, one of the longest in our county.

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ASny guestworker program will do the same namely send disaffected populace to move to America, and then send money back into the economy of Mexico.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

ASny guestworker program will do the same namely send disaffected populace to move to America, and then send money back into the economy of Mexico.

Sure; but we will know who is here, and they will pay taxes equivalent to what an American would pay, and they would be controlled in the same fashion as other immigrants.

This solves the vast majority of the problem for me.

Cycloptichorn

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Quote:

Cyclo, A 20 feet cement fence with barbed/electric wires around the US is not only ugly in terms of sight, but it's a narrow-minded way to control our borders.

I believe in the technological solution, the 'soft fence.' Hard fences don't work as well as technology and manpower.

Cycloptichorn

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Come on, Cyclo. Paying taxes is no guarantee they are crimeless. If you draw that conclusion, you need to study human behavior 101.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Come on, Cyclo. Paying taxes is no guarantee they are crimeless. If you draw that conclusion, you need to study human behavior 101.

Relax, noone said anything about guaranteeing anything. Just that we have to make the best efforts we can to find a palatable solution to a complex equation.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclops, how does it feel to get a sample of the your own left's insanity?

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sure; but we will know who is here, and they will pay taxes equivalent to what an American would pay, and they would be controlled in the same fashion as other immigrants.

We have open borders = people entering from more than a dozen countries aren't controlled at the borders at all (same in those other countries).

But of course they are registered, pay taxes and authorities know who they are: that's more a problem or non-problem of (local) bureaucracy than of border contropl.

Surem there are quite a few here (and there) illegally. But you can't close borders 100% neither.

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Your analogy in Europe is probably more akin to our border with Canada. We need enforcement there as well, but the problem is not nearly on the same scale of shear numbers as the Mexican border.

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okie wrote:

Your analogy in Europe is probably more akin to our border with Canada. We need enforcement there as well, but the problem is not nearly on the same scale of shear numbers as the Mexican border.

How many Canadians work in the USA and how many US-Americans in Canada? Shocked

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sure; but we will know who is here, and they will pay taxes equivalent to what an American would pay, and they would be controlled in the same fashion as other immigrants.

We have open borders = people entering from more than a dozen countries aren't controlled at the borders at all (same in those other countries).

But of course they are registered, pay taxes and authorities know who they are: that's more a problem or non-problem of (local) bureaucracy than of border contropl.

Surem there are quite a few here (and there) illegally. But you can't close borders 100% neither.

If we could have them registered, pay taxes, and know who they are, I'd be happy; but I don't see how that's possible without constricting the border in some fashion.

Cycloptichorn

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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