What should be done about illegal immigration?

Hokie wrote: Why is it wrong to think that it's in the Mexican people's best interest to solve the underlying problems that cause them to come north illegally?

Have you ever tried to solve the underlying problems we now have in the US? How about the deadlock between Bush and congress/majority of Americans on Iraq?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Hokie wrote: Why is it wrong to think that it's in the Mexican people's best interest to solve the underlying problems that cause them to come north illegally?

Have you ever tried to solve the underlying problems we now have in the US? How about the deadlock between Bush and congress/majority of Americans on Iraq?

C'mon, man; just because something is difficult to do doesn't mean it isn't worth trying to do.

Cycloptichorn

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Like our governments inability to arrive at a solution for the illegal immigration "problem." It never satisfies all the people. It's the same with trying to "fix" the problems inherent in one's own country, but is handicapped more often than not by government corruption.

Sure, it's worth trying, but one has to be realistic too! How much of one's time does one spend to change the underlying problems in one's own country? Guess?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Like our governments inability to arrive at a solution for the illegal immigration "problem." It never satisfies all the people. It's the same with trying to "fix" the problems inherent in one's own country, but is handicapped more often than not by government corruption.

Sure, it's worth trying, but one has to be realistic too! How much of one's time does one spend to change the underlying problems in one's own country? Guess?

It depends on how badly you want them to change. If the situation is that bad, the answer should be 'almost all' your time. Nothing else matters if you don't have freedom, nothing.

If we stop letting those who desire change sneak across into America, they will have a much greater incentive to effect their own change.

Cycloptichorn

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If one doean't have freedom, trying to fix that problem usually means at the risk of one's life. You ever hear of China?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

If one doean't have freedom, trying to fix that problem usually means at the risk of one's life. You ever hear of China?

Yes, it means the risk of one's life.

Sneaking into America means the risk of one's life.

I fail to see the distinction between the two, except for the fact that coming to America illegally takes less work and is less dangerous. I propose we fix that.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo, I was only responding to your post: It depends on how badly you want them to change. If the situation is that bad, the answer should be 'almost all' your time. Nothing else matters if you don't have freedom, nothing.

Survival to live is a great motivator.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

If one doean't have freedom, trying to fix that problem usually means at the risk of one's life. You ever hear of China?

Yes. What's your point?

Chinese Riot Against Population-Control Measures

Apparently some in China think it's worth the effort to try.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo, I was only responding to your post: It depends on how badly you want them to change. If the situation is that bad, the answer should be 'almost all' your time. Nothing else matters if you don't have freedom, nothing.

Survival to live is a great motivator.

Yeah, maybe for you. But your family back home? Your kids? Their kids? Your people, your country? If you run out to another country, and don't stay to work on those problems, you are essentially abandoning your people and the problems they have back home. That's not respectable in my book, nor honorable.

I'd never leave America before I fought to keep it, never.

Cycloptichorn

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Well, cyclo, I suppose, you never talked to a single asylum seaker.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, cyclo, I suppose, you never talked to a single asylum seaker.

You suppose incorrectly, my friend, though I can say that the only ones I've spoken with were actually granted asylum.

But, we aren't talking about people who are seeking asylum from an abusive government. We're talking about folks who are poor. Big difference.

As I said before - I understand completely why some would leave instead of stay and put in the hard work to make changes. I just don't find it to be an especially honorable choice to have made.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo, Sitting in the US and saying you'll never leave it is easy. Say that to the people in countries like Russia, Romania, China or many in South America.

Working for change in one own's country is an ideal that is not practical for most humans. Do you know or understand the underlying reasons for the riots in China?

One only needs to put yourself in their "shoes" to understand any situation they are in. If I'm a Mexican in Mexico, I may risk my life trying to come over illegally to the US to better my life - for the sake of my family. I'm not going to spend my time trying to fix my country's economy; that's not practical from many aspects; for one, who's going to support my family while I dedicate my life to politics?

If I live in China, and my government taxes me for having children or to force an abortion, a riot is probably the most practical solution. What would you do in similar circumstances?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo, Sitting in the US and saying you'll never leave it is easy. Say that to the people in countries like Russia, Romania, China or many in South America.

Working for change in one own's country is an ideal that is not practical for most humans. Do you know or understand the underlying reasons for the riots in China?

One only needs to put yourself in their "shoes" to understand any situation they are in. If I'm a Mexican in Mexico, I may risk my life trying to come over illegally to the US to better my life - for the sake of my family. I'm not going to spend my time trying to fix my country's economy; that's not practical from many aspects; for one, who's going to support my family while I dedicate my life to politics?

If I live in China, and my government taxes me for having children or to force an abortion, a riot is probably the most practical solution. What would you do in similar circumstances?

It isn't an and/or situation. You can work to improve your country while still supporting your family.

Look, people aren't starving to death in droves in Mexico. They're just poor, and want a better life. I understand this. But there's a right way to go about getting a better life, and a wrong way.

There are poor people here in America who want a better life. Should they just steal from the rich to get it? Should we encourage this? Obviously not. So I don't see why we should do the same for those in other countries.

You know I'm middle of the road on this one; I don't wish or think anything bad upon those who try to come to America. But they are not acting in an honorable fashion by doing so, period. I guess that doesn't matter to a lot of people, but it does me.

Coming to America has a zero percent chance of solving the endemic problems with the society back home - one which most of them will profess to care about if asked. They aren't interested in solving the problems of their people, and that's not cool.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo wrote: There are poor people here in America who want a better life. Should they just steal from the rich to get it? Should we encourage this? Obviously not. So I don't see why we should do the same for those in other countries.

I guess you never understood anything about "opportunity." It has nothing to do with "stealing" as you put it. They come here to work hard for some of the lowest pay. If that's "stealing," your concept is all wrong.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

If I'm a Mexican in Mexico, I may risk my life trying to come over illegally to the US to better my life - for the sake of my family.

Makes me think of poor Elian Gonzales, whose mother died trying to get him here, only to have Janet Reno to order him at gunpoint back to Castro's Cuba. Funny, we send a poor kid, whose mother was seeking asylum back, but now we grant amnesty to millions of people just to come here for a job. What side of the fence were you on in that affair, imposter? I can probably guess. How old is Elian now. He is probably good and brainwashed by now. But who knows, maybe not?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo wrote: There are poor people here in America who want a better life. Should they just steal from the rich to get it? Should we encourage this? Obviously not. So I don't see why we should do the same for those in other countries.

I guess you never understood anything about "opportunity." It has nothing to do with "stealing" as you put it. They come here to work hard for some of the lowest pay. If that's "stealing," your concept is all wrong.

I don't equate someone who comes across the border and works here to 'stealing.' I was using an analogy to show that there are proper ways to get ahead in life and improper ways. Obviously there is no honor in choosing an improper way, even if you are willing to work hard to get it.

I have nothing against those who pick my vegetables and build our buildings; but they shouldn't have anything against me, either, and the fact is that they didn't follow the proper procedures to come here and work. They broke the law. I'm okay with that - everyone breaks some laws - but they should be okay with others trying to enforce them.

Cycloptichorn

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They broke the law because they had an incentive, and our government failed to enforce laws they themselves made. Under those circumstances, I probably would have done the same in a similar situation. That you wouldn't is easy for you to say sitting in the US.

The issue is "how much harm did they bring to the US vs the benefit?"

Do you know how to spell "labor shortage?"

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cicerone imposter wrote:

They broke the law because they had an incentive, and our government failed to enforce laws they themselves made. Under those circumstances, I probably would have done the same in a similar situation. That you wouldn't is easy for you to say sitting in the US.

The issue is "how much harm did they bring to the US vs the benefit?"

Do you know how to spell "labor shortage?"

There are three different points here, and I'll address 'em separately.

Quote:

They broke the law because they had an incentive, and our government failed to enforce laws they themselves made. Under those circumstances, I probably would have done the same in a similar situation. That you wouldn't is easy for you to say sitting in the US.

I quite understand why someone would choose to come here instead of fixing things at home, as I said before. But an 'incentive' to break the law is no reason to do so, and no reason to forgive someone for doing so.

I would and do break laws. But I don't expect people to not hold me responsible for doing so.

Quote:

The issue is "how much harm did they bring to the US vs the benefit?"

I agree that they benefit the US, in terms of labor power. I agree that we should make those who are here, legal. I agree that we should have guest worker programs to help people come work here. None of this is incompatible with wanting to close the border at all.

Quote:

Do you know how to spell "labor shortage?"

Of course I do, but we don't currently have one, and certainly not one that couldn't be addressed by legal forms of immigration.

None of our problems, or their problems, provides justification for breaking the law, sorry. There's nothing wrong with working to make the laws better, but that isn't an excuse to break them.

I see no reason to hold Bush et. al responsible for following the laws, but not others. The Rule of Law is what makes our nation strong, and we shouldn't abandon that.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo:
I quite understand why someone would choose to come here instead of fixing things at home, as I said before. But an 'incentive' to break the law is no reason to do so, and no reason to forgive someone for doing so.

ci: Some laws in our country are downright stupid and out of date. They deserve to be "broken." If you like, I can site some examples. There are extremes on which laws have merit and which ones don't. You need to learn how to distinguish them.

I would and do break laws. But I don't expect people to not hold me responsible for doing so.

ci: The laws you are applying to yourself has nothing to do with illegal immigration.

ci:
The issue is "how much harm did they bring to the US vs the benefit?"
+

Cyclo:
I agree that they benefit the US, in terms of labor power. I agree that we should make those who are here, legal. I agree that we should have guest worker programs to help people come work here. None of this is incompatible with wanting to close the border at all.

ci: Our opinions doesn't seem to hold much water: even congress can't agree on what terms to establish for illegal immigrants. This is not a only US issue or problem. Your comment about "here legally" has not much to do with the illegal immigrant issue; that's the crux of the problem.

Do you know how to spell "labor shortage?"

Cyclo:
Of course I do, but we don't currently have one, and certainly not one that couldn't be addressed by legal forms of immigration.

ci: BINGO! If you are still unawares, congress is considering a provisioin which provides amnesty for those illegals. That makes it "legal" for those illegal immigrants.

Cyclo:
None of our problems, or their problems, provides justification for breaking the law, sorry.

ci: Refer to my comment above.

There's nothing wrong with working to make the laws better, but that isn't an excuse to break them.

ci: According to you, but that's not how many Americans and those 12 million illegal immigrants feel. Even congress is making provisions to make them "legal."

Cyclo:
I see no reason to hold Bush et. al responsible for following the laws, but not others. The Rule of Law is what makes our nation strong, and we shouldn't abandon that.

ci: Your mixing apples and oranges here. When Bush breaks the laws, he hurts our Constitution and Bill of Rights, kills thousands of innocents, and spends billions for a cause he still can't articulate. When illegals break the laws, they fill necessary job shortages in our country.

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We all benefit from illegal immigrants who come to work in our fields and restaurants and everyplace else where they are needed.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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