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What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 03:16 pm
okie wrote:
Cyclops, how does it feel to get a sample of the your own left's insanity?


There's nothing wrong with a diversity of opinions on a subject.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 03:25 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
If we could have them registered, pay taxes, and know who they are, I'd be happy; but I don't see how that's possible without constricting the border in some fashion.

Cycloptichorn


Well, it is possible in Europe, in 15countries practised just now (and 15 more think they could do it).

http://i13.tinypic.com/66ceq9w.jpg
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 03:28 pm
One way of saving social security in the long run is to correct our aging demographics. We can do this by recruiting to citizenship as many hard working young immigrants as possible.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 03:44 pm
JLNobody wrote:
One way of saving social security in the long run is to correct our aging demographics. We can do this by recruiting to citizenship as many hard working young immigrants as possible.


I completely agree (though it just puts the problem off for a while); but they have to be CITIZENS and not just people crashing the party.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 04:39 pm
The latest from our congress.


Immigration deal survives early test By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, Associated Press Writer
8 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - The Senate turned back an early attack on the broad immigration overhaul Tuesday, keeping alive a temporary worker provision that could bring in as many as 600,000 foreign laborers each year.

Senators voted 64-31 to reject a proposal offered by Sen. Byron Dorgan (news, bio, voting record), D-N.D., and supported by some labor unions to delete the program, which is one of the measure's key elements.

The vote was the first big test for the improbable coalition that wrote the measure and is struggling to keep the fragile deal from unraveling under pressure from across the political spectrum.

The bill still faces myriad assaults, including further Democratic attempts to limit or alter the temporary worker program, which would bring in foreign employees on two-year visas.

The bill would also toughen border security, give quick legal status to the estimated 12 million immigrants in the country unlawfully and create a new workplace verification system to bar undocumented workers from getting jobs.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 05:15 pm
Here are some simple truths:

Throughout history; poor hungry people rebel. Sometimes this means protests. Sometimes this means violence. Sometimes this even means, gasp, trespassing. Rolling Eyes

Security:
Truth: If every Mexican who can pass a background check is allowed to come and go as they please; there is no need to sneak over our borders. Were this the case; ONLY CRIMINALS AND TERRORISTS would need to do so. There can be no doubt that Border Patrol would be more effective against thousands of illegal border crossing attempts than they are against millions. This is the simple truth.

Amnesty/Reform:
If the purpose of Amnesty/Reform is to remove the inherent danger in having undocumented workers pervading our country: then the single most important consideration has to be producing a plan that will actually work. This is the barest of common sense, but it seems WAY too many people don't get it. 12 to 20 million people will gladly show up at their local Sheriff's office in exchange for Amnesty. Scarce few, if any, will show up at their local Sheriff's office in exchange for Deportation. Every measure in between will reduce the number of people who show up… hence; every measure in-between reduces the effectiveness of Amnesty/Reform. This is the simple truth.

In both areas of concern, the more liberal policy of reduced restriction reduces the chances of ex-convicts and terrorists running amuck. This means that those who oppose the measure on account of National Security are misguided, lying, or simply wrong. Z visa's for everyone who just wishes to work is a laudable part of the plan. $1,000 fine for simple trespassing seems a little steep to me, but it's reasonable, and shouldn't affect the effectiveness of the plan, providing it isn't required up front. A path of 8 years to citizenship through Green Card, including an additional $4,000 fine and a requirement to learn English, strikes me as quite reasonable as well.

So here we see 4 figure financial punishments for the misdemeanor trespassing offenses. That's neither excessive nor a "free pass". It should satisfy those who wish to see consequences for illegal actions, as well as those who don't want to see excessive consequences for understandable actions. Security-wise; this is the most logical plan.

The Future:
It seems concerns over future offenses is a major point of dispute. Gambling, Drugs, Alcohol, Prostitution, and "Border Crossing for work" are all very similar in that there is a very very simple way to eliminate the vast majority of the crime. 90+ percent of these crimes can be eliminated simply by regulating legal procedures for the acts themselves.

Anyone whose head isn't thoroughly buried in the sand knows that some people will naturally wish (or at least be willing) to relocate to where there is a better opportunity for themselves and their families. Denying this is simple denial, nothing more. If you don't want them to do it illegally, the most obviously effective solution is to allow them to do it legally. No rocket science and no further tolerance of "illegal" behavior is asked for or necessary.

So, now we've solved the problem of "illegal" immigration, Security is the next thing to address. By all means; increase the border patrol agents, and lower the threshold of tolerance and strengthen the rules of engagement, if you wish. No longer should there be basically innocent people sneaking through, so it is now quite reasonable to assume those that do are threats… and deal with them accordingly. Same goes for employers. No longer is there any justification, moral or otherwise, to hire, house, or otherwise assist undocumented people in any way. Party to the crime of whatever crime these people commit strikes me as reasonable, and would likely prove extremely effective. Do expect a brief increase in reported crime from those who no longer have another avenue of survival. Please bigots, try not to blame the law abiding majority of immigrants for this inevitability.

What I've just laid out is a quite simple, reasonable and effective plan that will remove the National Security Threat from the immigration debate, more effectively than ANY OTHER reasonable plan.

For all of those indignantly proclaiming they are not against LEGAL immigration; this plan should satisfy them, no? Unless of course they are only using that as a cop out, so they don't have to admit they are actually, VERY against immigration in general, if it means the million or so people crossing our borders could do so legally.

Ya, but what if millions of people come every year? So what? This is a recipe for growth, not stagnation. Let's examine our population growth for the last half century, shall we:

Our population has doubled since 1950 and we are that much better off and more powerful for it. Let's watch it grow …Between
1950 and 1960 = 18.5% growth
1960 and 1970 = 13.4%
1970 and 1980 = 11.4%
1980 and 1990 = 9.8%
1990 and 2000 = 13.2%

This means our average population growth for the last half a century is around 13.26%. By today's population, that means we should expect our population to increase by some 40,000,000 people in the next decade. A few million here or there isn't going to hurt us. I believe they are going to come regardless, so you may as well regulate out the criminals and terrorists by allowing the law-abiding to come freely. This should reduce the burden on border patrol immensely. I'm sure all of you who are ONLY against "illegal" immigration will agree with me… unless of course you're bigots, liars or too friggin stupid to recognize the truth. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 05:29 pm
I think the plan you propose is a good one and I support pretty much every part of it.

I would like to see penalties enacted on those who hire illegals, but I'm open to discussion if people don't think that would be a good idea.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 05:37 pm
Cyclo: It is not 'apples and oranges.' Either you expect people to follow the law, or you don't. I expect them to, so it would be quite hypocritical not to go after all those who break it, not just those I disagree with politically.


A far cry from your most recent comment to agree with most of OBill's post.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 05:54 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Cyclo: It is not 'apples and oranges.' Either you expect people to follow the law, or you don't. I expect them to, so it would be quite hypocritical not to go after all those who break it, not just those I disagree with politically.


A far cry from your most recent comment to agree with most of OBill's post.


O'Bill proposes changing the law, something which I am not against doing.

I only insist that we follow our written laws as they are written.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 06:11 pm
That's what I've been saying all along; the congress makes the laws but don't enforce them. We'll have to wait and see what new laws they establish for illegal immigrants, then see if they follow through on them. I have my doubts.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 06:14 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think the plan you propose is a good one and I support pretty much every part of it.

I would like to see penalties enacted on those who hire illegals, but I'm open to discussion if people don't think that would be a good idea.

Cycloptichorn
When skimming through the bill, it does indeed have harsh financial punishments for employers who hire illegals. I'm fine with this providing a legal path has been provided for the job seeker. Otherwise, you are essentially trying to starve them out, after they are already here, and I'd bet my last dollar THAT WILL lead to increased crime. In the cases of the criminals who don't qualify for Amnesty/Reform; we'll already be seeing some blowback from this. It becomes unacceptable to me when you criminalize the pursuit of work itself... which is all the vast majority ever sought. If punishment of employers is the first step of a plan that doesn't legalize the vast majority of those currently here illegally; get ready to watch the ridiculous crime statistics the bigots provide become a stark reality. It is not only morally reprehensible to prevent people from legally earning a living; it is utter idiocy to believe they won't turn to crime if there's no other alternative.

In other words; those who are currently gainfully employed need to be able to redefine their status before any real crackdown on the employers of same; or all hell WILL break loose. To the extent they are already cracking down on employers, I'd wager increased crime could be measured as a direct result if all the information could be isolated.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 06:25 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think the plan you propose is a good one and I support pretty much every part of it.

I would like to see penalties enacted on those who hire illegals, but I'm open to discussion if people don't think that would be a good idea.

Cycloptichorn
When skimming through the bill, it does indeed have harsh financial punishments for employers who hire illegals. I'm fine with this providing a legal path has been provided for the job seeker. Otherwise, you are essentially trying to starve them out, after they are already here, and I'd bet my last dollar THAT WILL lead to increased crime. In the cases of the criminals who don't qualify for Amnesty/Reform; we'll already be seeing some blowback from this. It becomes unacceptable to me when you criminalize the pursuit of work itself... which is all the vast majority ever sought. If punishment of employers is the first step of a plan that doesn't legalize the vast majority of those currently here illegally; get ready to watch the ridiculous crime statistics the bigots provide become a stark reality. It is not only morally reprehensible to prevent people from legally earning a living; it is utter idiocy to believe they won't turn to crime if there's no other alternative.

In other words; those who are currently gainfully employed need to be able to redefine their status before any real crackdown on the employers of same; or all hell WILL break loose. To the extent they are already cracking down on employers, I'd wager increased crime could be measured as a direct result if all the information could be isolated.


A starving man won't just sit there and starve, I agree.

I think that upon enactment of the new laws it should be made clear that enforcement will begin post haste, and therefore anyone who isn't sure about their status as an illegal alien had better go sign their paper as quick as they could. I don't want to see a bunch of hardworking people hassled, but it wouldn't hurt to give them an extra incentive to get into the program.

I'm glad we could come to agreement on this issue on many points.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 07:09 pm
Quote:
Q: What is the bill's key provision?
A: The most fundamental -- and most controversial -- would enable all illegal immigrants who entered the U.S. before the first of this year to stay in the country and work under "Z visas" that would be renewable every four years. They would be required to pass criminal background checks and pay a $1,000 fine. Those who wanted to get on track for U.S. citizenship by getting a green card would have to wait more than eight years and return home to apply. They also would have to pay an additional $4,000 and show proficiency in English.


And this is the problem.
There is no incentive for any of the illegal aliens to apply for citizenship.
They are automatically eligible for ALL of the benefits of being in the US legally,such as welfare,medicaid,food stamps,Social Security for those that are "disabled",and everything else,without having to pay for it at all.

If you were offered all of that for free,would you apply for citizenship?

Also,how much is this bill gonna cost?
How much are our taxes going to go up to pay for it?

There are way to many questions to be answered before this bill should be passed.
Why did the Senate try to rush this bill through?
What are they hiding?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 07:29 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Quote:
Q: What is the bill's key provision?
A: The most fundamental -- and most controversial -- would enable all illegal immigrants who entered the U.S. before the first of this year to stay in the country and work under "Z visas" that would be renewable every four years. They would be required to pass criminal background checks and pay a $1,000 fine. Those who wanted to get on track for U.S. citizenship by getting a green card would have to wait more than eight years and return home to apply. They also would have to pay an additional $4,000 and show proficiency in English.


And this is the problem.
There is no incentive for any of the illegal aliens to apply for citizenship.
They are automatically eligible for ALL of the benefits of being in the US legally,such as welfare,medicaid,food stamps,Social Security for those that are "disabled",and everything else,without having to pay for it at all.
This is simply not true. Those who choose not to become citizens will have paid into SS and never be eligible to collect it. SS and Medicaid aren't government handouts, per se... they are essentially a severely mismanaged insurance/savings account. SS pays out relative to the contributions of those who pay into it. The median age of immigrants all but insures they'll pay more in than they'll ever take out... just like you and I. Any problems associated with these programs are problems with the programs themselves, not immigrants. Considering the Baby Boomers are now collecting SS, and our government made the idiotic decision to run the program like a "Ponzi scheme", an excellent argument can be made to demonstrate that immigration is the single best friend or Social Security.

Not only will they assist in propping up the poorly planned Ponzi that is SS today, given the median age of the immigrants themselves, you can rest assured that they will have long since over paid their dues by the time they collect... assuming they stick around and jump through the requisite hoops to collect at all.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 07:59 pm
mysteryman wrote:

And this is the problem.
There is no incentive for any of the illegal aliens to apply for citizenship.
They are automatically eligible for ALL of the benefits of being in the US legally,such as welfare,medicaid,food stamps,Social Security for those that are "disabled",and everything else,without having to pay for it at all.


True, and I've been advocating severe punishment for employers hiring illegals as a way to dry up the demand, thus fixing the supply. I should add to that severe punishment for the bureaucrats. Throw them in jail too for breaking their own laws. This would also dry up the demand for free services.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 08:10 pm
there's already a problem with the "harsh penalties" idea before any bill gets past;

Quote:
Federal judge halts enforcement of Farmers Branch ordinance

By MARK AGEE
[email protected]

FARMERS BRANCH -- The battle over Farmers Branch's ban on renting to illegal immigrants escalated Monday afternoon as a federal judge issued a restraining order preventing the ordinance from going into effect.

The ordinance, approved by voters May 12, was to become enforceable Tuesday, but U.S. District Judge Sam Lindsay found reason to believe that a lawsuit filed to overturn the ordinance would succeed in federal court and issued an injunction.

Supporters say illegal immigration has placed too much of a burden on schools and other local services. They say that the federal government isn't enforcing immigration laws, so the duty falls to local officials.

Opponents of the referendum say that immigration is a matter for the federal government and that Farmers Branch's stance is alienating Hispanics. They also say landlords shouldn't be responsible for verifying citizenship.


judge issues restraining order
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 08:27 pm
okie wrote:
mysteryman wrote:

And this is the problem.
There is no incentive for any of the illegal aliens to apply for citizenship.
They are automatically eligible for ALL of the benefits of being in the US legally,such as welfare,medicaid,food stamps,Social Security for those that are "disabled",and everything else,without having to pay for it at all.


True, and I've been advocating severe punishment for employers hiring illegals as a way to dry up the demand, thus fixing the supply. I should add to that severe punishment for the bureaucrats. Throw them in jail too for breaking their own laws. This would also dry up the demand for free services.
This position defines ignorance. What do you suppose 12 to 20 million people would do if they can't work? Throw up their hands, admit they're defeated, and thumb their way back to Mexico? Here on planet earth; intelligent beings know better than that.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 10:53 pm
dude, ya gotta get past declaring anyone who disagrees with ya about this issue a bigot or ignorant or both.. or whatever.

if anyone here, on a2k was saying shite like, "i'm cool with any illegals being here except mexicans, or salvadorans, or chinese" or whatever; then that would be bigotry or racism.

but noone on this thread has said anything like that. not that i've noticed anyway.

you're just hurting the cause that you seek to champion when ya do that. Idea
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 11:26 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
dude, ya gotta get past declaring anyone who disagrees with ya about this issue a bigot or ignorant or both.. or whatever.

if anyone here, on a2k was saying shite like, "i'm cool with any illegals being here except mexicans, or salvadorans, or chinese" or whatever; then that would be bigotry or racism.

but noone on this thread has said anything like that. not that i've noticed anyway.

you're just hurting the cause that you seek to champion when ya do that. Idea
That just means you haven't noticed. Bigotry is amply demonstrated by McG's "beaner" slur, countless bogus reports of ridiculously exaggerated crime statistics and CJHSA's pronouncement that 30 million Mexicans need a ride out of the country (NO estimate of illegals is that high). Anyone who thinks 12 to 20 million people being forced into joblessness won't increase crime is indeed displaying ignorance, pure and simple. My case is diminished not at all by pointing these things out.

You are giving bigots, liars and idiots a free pass by pretending my use of mostly conditional invectives is without due cause.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 11:37 pm
On the cost of illegal immigration/amnesty etc., the following should be revisited:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/bg1936.cfm
0 Replies
 
 

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