What should be done about illegal immigration?

cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo, When the government of any third world country is corrupt, there isn't much any one citizen can do. Even the potential in Russia is handicapped by the corrupt government and mafia, and those in the professions cannot maximize their potential.

When we visited Romania a couple of years ago, our local guide in Bucharest was a dentist; he could earn more money as a tour guide than he can in his profession.

When we talk about those in third world countries without any skills or the necessary education to earn a "decent" living after decades of trying to improve their country, the next best thing is to find a country where the living standard is better. For most countries in the south of us, that means the US. Even Costa Rica has illegal immigrant problems from their neighboring countries, because they happen to have a much better standard of living. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why they are attracted to Costa Rica.

Good point, CI. I may soon add to their illegal alien population myself. :wink:

A correction: All of Mexico's neighbors are significantly poorer than Mexico save Costa Rica who is not that much better. (That should make the phased annexation more palatable, to them at least Razz

).

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
It's interesting to me, that the poor hungry folks don't try their hardest to sneak into other countries besides the US; this is in part because of the riches we have here and in part because of our geographical boundaries.
Like where? There neighbors are about as poor or worse off than they are and no country offers the opportunity of these United States. You'd be looking at the whole of the European Union to best our individual wealth.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
But this isn't something which is impossible to end. You just have to make it difficult enough to constitute an unacceptable risk.
Landmines? Bullets for poor hungry people?

Cycloptichorn wrote:
It seems to me that if these folks who want a better life so badly would work more on improving the conditions in their own country - and we are talking about people who are willing to work very hard, remember, for a better life - then they wouldn't have to come here. So why don't they do that?
A great deal of them do, and have in vain, but they're as human as you and I and it doesn't take a genius to figure out the path of least resistance. You will find Americans do not have the stomach to put up the resistance that would be necessary to significantly change this equation. If I'm proven wrong on that; then I'll be ashamed to call myself one.

You're correct, the illegal aliens of Middle and South America don't try to sneak into Europe; primarily because it would be too life-threatening to make the attempt. It would not be difficult to make it equally life-threatening to make the attempt here.

Look, as I've said before, if we could make a 50ft tall fence out of pillows, and it would work, I'd be all for it. As it is, we have to do something to regulate the flow of people across the border (even if we are going to let more and more in, we still need to know who they are) and stop those, such as terrorists or gang members, from entering.

I categorically reject the idea that someone who sneaks into America, instead of staying to work on fixing their own country, is noble or respectable in any way. Sure, they take the path of least resistance. Not much honor in that. If they want respect from me, they should earn it - by working tirelessly to change their country. It may (will) take many generations, but so f*cking what? The solution isn't to come to America and live off of our riches, it is to increase the quality of life for people back home.

As I said, I don't blame the man who sneaks into America for trying. But he shouldn't blame us for trying to stop him, either, and he should have more of an eye towards improving the situation of his people instead of abandoning it.

The thing that makes me shake my head, Bill, is that you seem to think that there's something wrong with territorial integrity for the US. There's nothing wrong with defending our borders. I'm a Liberal Democrat, and I can tell you straight up that I have never cried a tear for anyone who died trying to get into America illegally, ever, and I never will. For one simple reason:

When you're doing something that you know is illegal, whether or not you personally believe it should be illegal, only one rule applies: You pays your money, you takes your chances. Noone forces anyone to illegally sneak into America, noone. The fact that people choose to take the path of least resistance and do so, even if they are willing to work hard when they are here, is a moral failure on their part; trying to prevent them from doing so is not a moral failure on mine.

Don't be black-and-white. I'm no bigot, I have nothing against these people. But I also have nothing for them.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo, When you say "take the path of least resistance," I'm not so sure you know what you're saying. Many risk their life; that simply doesn't mesh with your conclusion about "least resistance."

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Cyclo, When you say "take the path of least resistance," I'm not so sure you know what you're saying. Many risk their life; that simply doesn't mesh with your conclusion about "least resistance."

I was simply quoting Bill, who said:

Quote:

A great deal of them do, and have in vain, but they're as human as you and I and it doesn't take a genius to figure out the path of least resistance

And, let's look past the short-term risk of life for crossing (which obviously isn't that risky, as we have millions of illegal aliens living here and we don't have millions dying on our borders trying to get in). In fact, it's downright statistically safe to try and sneak into America.

No, what would be far more difficult than the short-term gamble, would be the long-term slog of working to change your own situation. That would be the honorable thing to do. I don't expect people to do this, but I don't see why they should be allowed to sneak into our country just because they don't want to do the work to fix their own up.

I am a big believer in equality of the races; and if a bunch of people in our country could get our sh*t together, so could they. They just don't. It is our problem; as Bill has pointed out, we suffer because they suffer. But there are many ways to fix this problem, and sneaking into America does absolutely nothing to fix it.

It's basically abandoning the problem because you don't want to do the work to fix it, and don't care about what happens when you do abandon it. Lame.

Cycloptichorn

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The thing I can't understand is why some think that the illegal way is the ONLY way to help the poor of Mexico or anywhere else earn a living wage. I can't understand why they are so strongly resisting reforming the immigration policy to meet the needs of BOTH sides of the border make it possible to be gainfully employed AND legal.

There are many people in Mexico who are living in crushing poverty and who desperately need help who aren't interested in violating U.S. law. So, a number of us throughout New Mexico and West Texas have been running a rice and beans program for years coordinating our efforts with a visionary and wonderful pastor from the other side. We don't involve any government money in this project because whenever the government from either side gets involved, it seems a lot less, if any, help intended for the poor actually gets to the poor. In the last three years we've delivered maybe 30 tons of beans and rice to the Mexican border. We aren't allowed to take it into Mexico ourselves--their laws won't allow that--but representatives from their side can come across and take it back by the truck load. (This sometimes has to be done in almost a clandestine manner to prevent confiscation by bandits or corrupt officials.)

What happens on that side? The pastor and his assistants distribute the food to those most in need while asking community service in return which is always gratefully provided. Thus the poor are fed and retain their dignity as well. And not one has a criminal record that will prevent him/her from signing up for a temporary work program in the USA when our do nothing Congress gets off the dime and gets one put together.

Meanwhile there are those on this side who are actively promoting major reform in Mexico's government and sociopolitical structures that would allow that wonderful country to lift itself by its bootstraps. EXAMPLE HERE

Meanwhile we need to clean up the corruption on our side of the border too along with implementation of policies that will provide Mexico incentive to clean up theirs.

Do these things and virtually every American will feel a partnership with Mexico and we won't need to be having these ridiculous comparisons of compassion vs practical solutions.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I categorically reject the idea that someone who sneaks into America, instead of staying to work on fixing their own country, is noble or respectable in any way. Sure, they take the path of least resistance. Not much honor in that. If they want respect from me, they should earn it - by working tirelessly to change their country. It may (will) take many generations, but so f*cking what? The solution isn't to come to America and live off of our riches, it is to increase the quality of life for people back home.

Bold admonishment from someone who never walked a mile (through the desert) in their shoes. Rolling Eyes

And you're quite wrong about them doing nothing to improve their own country. Their contribution is the fastest growing industry. :wink:

Nobody said you had to give a rat's ass about your fellow man. I do. And I'll continue to hold in considerably less esteem those who don't. No worries; I'll lose no more sleep over it than you.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

That's great that the 3 of you have joined hands in agreement. Perhaps if you bury your heads in the sand real close to each other; you'll still be able to hear each other's nonsense. Cyclops, you may as well join them, because although you at least have the decency to face the truth of the situation as it exists today; you too are in error as to what constitutes "the biggest part of the problem"... poverty... not unscrupulous employers.

So poverty in Mexico is suddenly our problem to solve? And I suppose we are bigots if we don't think it is? How ridiculous are you going to take this debate, Bill?

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Contrary to what I used to think about this issue, I now think we should by hook or crook make all "illegal aliens" from Mexico who are already here and working to improve their chances at life, legal. Build another Ellis Island, line them up and issue citizenship papers. THEN, close the borders.

For God's sake, these are our neighbors. What a f****** mess. Bill Clinton let these people in to stay so he could get their votes. George Bush, the same. (Hopefully, neither had the heart to turn them away) Since it is our own fault, give them amnesty, at least those who are working. Enough, enough!

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Foxfyre wrote:

Do these things and virtually every American will feel a partnership with Mexico and we won't need to be having these ridiculous comparisons of compassion vs practical solutions.

We don't need to have these ridiculous comparisons of compassion vs practical solutions. They are one in the same. Where you prefer to feed the animals, I prefer to recognize them as human animals and not look at them through a fence. Where you prefer to have cops running all over God's creation trying to catch a million people a year; I think things would go smother if they concentrated on the few thousand that weren't allowed to simply present their ID at the appropriate location. Doesn't seem like much of a comparison practically or compassionately to me.

Ps. Couldn't resist the crack, but I do think it's terrific that you go to the trouble to feed hungry people. Nods.

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sunlover wrote:

Contrary to what I used to think about this issue, I now think we should by hook or crook make all "illegal aliens" from Mexico who are already here and working to improve their chances at life, legal. Build another Ellis Island, line them up and issue citizenship papers. THEN, close the borders.

For God's sake, these are our neighbors. What a f****** mess. Bill Clinton let these people in to stay so he could get their votes. George Bush, the same. (Hopefully, neither had the heart to turn them away) Since it is our own fault, give them amnesty, at least those who are working. Enough, enough!

I would agree and did agree when this was done twice before. Both times were well intentioned but produced much in unintended bad consequences. I think we have to do it differently this time to avoid the same unintended bad consequences.

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okie wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
That's great that the 3 of you have joined hands in agreement. Perhaps if you bury your heads in the sand real close to each other; you'll still be able to hear each other's nonsense. Cyclops, you may as well join them, because although you at least have the decency to face the truth of the situation as it exists today; you too are in error as to what constitutes "the biggest part of the problem"... poverty... not unscrupulous employers.

So poverty in Mexico is suddenly our problem to solve? And I suppose we are bigots if we don't think it is? How ridiculous are you going to take this debate, Bill?

Yep, it's been a couple hours, so here comes Okie to re-re-re-demonstrate his ignorance. Listen closely, Okie. Their poverty is the reason they come here. If you don't want them trying to come here; you might want to address the problem. Well, you might not get it... but the concept isn't lost on everyone, I assure you.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I would agree and did agree when this was done twice before. Both times were well intentioned but produced much in unintended bad consequences. I think we have to do it differently this time to avoid the same unintended bad consequences.

And therein lies your biggest folly. They didn't come here because of anything we did in the past. They came because they are poor.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I categorically reject the idea that someone who sneaks into America, instead of staying to work on fixing their own country, is noble or respectable in any way. Sure, they take the path of least resistance. Not much honor in that. If they want respect from me, they should earn it - by working tirelessly to change their country. It may (will) take many generations, but so f*cking what? The solution isn't to come to America and live off of our riches, it is to increase the quality of life for people back home.
Bold admonishment from someone who never walked a mile (through the desert) in their shoes. And you're quite wrong about them doing nothing to improve their own country. Their contribution is the fastest growing industry. :wink:

Sending money doesn't help their country one bit. It doesn't change the government, it doesn't reform the police, it doesn't help their environment or help make their economy more competitive. It's like throwing money at poor folk here in America. It doesn't improve the situation. You need systemic change and that will come through masses of people working to make it happen, and not money.

No, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.

Quote:

Nobody said you had to give a rat's ass about your fellow man. I do. And I'll continue to hold in considerably less esteem those who don't. No worries; I'll lose no more sleep over it than you.

Your definition of 'giving a rat's ass' is different than mine, is all. I don't believe that we are obligated to do anything to help people who are not willing to work to help themselves. If the average Hispanic man or woman doesn't like the situation in their society, the proper course of action is to work to fix it, not to abandon it and go live in rich America.

I give a rat's ass about a lot of people, but don't think that those people are exempt from laws - or from their moral duties as citizens of other countries.

Cycloptichorn

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Do these things and virtually every American will feel a partnership with Mexico and we won't need to be having these ridiculous comparisons of compassion vs practical solutions.
We don't need to have these ridiculous comparisons of compassion vs practical solutions. They are one in the same. Where you prefer to feed the animals, I prefer to recognize them as human animals and not look at them through a fence. Where you prefer to have cops running all over God's creation trying to catch a million people a year; I think things would go smother if they concentrated on the few thousand that weren't allowed to simply present their ID at the appropriate location. Doesn't seem like much of a comparison practically or compassionately to me.

Ps. Couldn't resist the crack, but I do think it's terrific that you go to the trouble to feed hungry people. Nods.

No you don't think it's terrific or you wouldn't have made the crack. I don't presume to allow people I've met face to face to be human beings. They don't need my permission (or yours) to be human beings. They are smart, capable, strong, and can make something of their own country so that there is no need for anybody to invade ours. I prefer that solution to your solution of making them permanent wards of the United States.

And you are religiously avoiding any suggestion that we actually create and enforce a workable immigration program that eliminates the problems Sunlovr mentioned but which you would apparently would perpetuate. Most of us on the pro-enforcement side prefer to facilitate problem solving on both sides of the 'fence'.

The liberal way is to use somebody else's money to buy appreciation from victims they presume to rescue and they call that compassion.

The conservative way is to provide food and water that is needed, but just as important is to facilitate the tools for people to produce whatever is needed and think that is far more compassionate than making people second class citizens beholden to (and dependent on) their benefactors.

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Foxfyre wrote:

And you are religiously avoiding any suggestion that we actually create and enforce a workable immigration program that eliminates the problems Sunlovr mentioned but which you would apparently would perpetuate. Most of us on the pro-enforcement side prefer to facilitate problem solving on both sides of the 'fence'.

What are you talking about? If we allow everyone who isn't a criminal or terrorist in at the checkpoints; they won't be crossing elsewhere at their peril. Border Patrol will have a much simpler time picking up the relative handful that does have to cross elsewhere. Problem solved, more humanely, more efficiently and almost certainly more effectively. Sorry that simple fact doesn't mesh well with your desire for less admission. For as long as you're keeping good people out; the bad people will be able to blend with them when they come anyway. And they will.

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Mexicans come here because they're poor, but also because they're encouraged to by the corrupt Mexican government, who take their cut from the billions sent every year.

Exporting their people, as shameful as it should be to them, only makes them richer and more corrupt.

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Foxfyre wrote:

No you don't think it's terrific or you wouldn't have made the crack.

Btw, that's nonsense and you know it. You've followed enough of my threads to have an inkling how much I do for charity, so OF course I appreciate yours. Don't let your frustration make you pretend otherwise.

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Senate puts off action on immigration

By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 22 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Senate leaders agreed Monday that they would wait until June to take final action on a bipartisan plan to give millions of unlawful immigrants legal status.

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o'bill wrote:

Immigration-> (A->B->A=IDIOCY)

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Cycloptic:

Quote:

If the average Hispanic man or woman doesn't like the situation in their society, the proper course of action is to work to fix it, not to abandon it and go live in rich America.

It's fine to say they should "work to fix" their society, but someone struggling to literally clothe and feed himself isn't very likely to be able to muster much energy for social/political advocacy.
Do you know what poverty and struggle for survival are?

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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