Foxfyre wrote:HokieBird wrote:Foxfyre - if it's any comfort, Kay Bailey Hutchison feels exactly as you (and many, many others) do, so if you're both idiots (according to some name-calling hotheads weighing in here), at least you're in good company
Thank you HokieBird and yes. The reason I know Obill and the little dog yapping bravely from behind him are completely out of ammo is they are incapable of arguing any point without being personally insulting as well as a broken record reciting the same flawed lyrics. (Come to think of it, Little Dog did make a valid point earlier--I meant to compliment him on it though I disagreed with him somewhat--but he is still incapable of not piling on when he can make it a pack attack. At least he seems to agree with me that Obill is now fully integrated into the liberal camp.
)
But for those who actually do care about getting this right, they need to be listening to the Kay Bailey Hutchinson's, etc. who don't have an ax to grind here and who want to accomplish the best possible deal for all concerned including those who actually will want to become legal give the opportunity to do so. We sure won't accomplish that by rewarding those who have been illegal while those waiting for legal admission continue to wait and the American people are stuck with the bill without any of the benefits.
Certainly those who have applied for legal admission through proper channels should be given preference over those who have flouted the law. Everybody else should have to get in line behind them AFTER they have become legal by going home and applying through proper channels.
Neither Carter nor Reagan offered a comprehensive guest worker program and that certainly has to be in place to accommodate whatever labor we need to import for the good of everybody. We haven't had that since Johnson discontinued Eisenhower's guest worker program in the 1960's. Johnson caved in to union pressures and I'm sure the unions are resisting a guest worker program now. Congress needs to stand strong against that.
It doesn't hurt my feelings that you find it necessary to call me names, Foxfyre. My points remain unchanged.
I think part of the problem with the Conservative position is that you/they are all caught up in the question of what
should be, and not what
actually is. You don't feel that these illegals should be here at all, and you're right, but they are here, and should be dealt with according to the realities of the situation, instead of insisting on something which won't work - forcing 12 to 20 million people to leave the country before they come back. It simply will not happen.
Cycloptichorn
OCCOM BILL wrote:Foxfyre wrote: At least he seems to agree with me that Obill is now fully integrated into the liberal camp.
)
That has to be about your dumbest talking point yet. I think you'd agree that Deb is among the most notable liberals on A2K, and the last time we engaged on a subject; she suggested I kill myself.
Don't kid yourself; I remain fiercely independent and you are simply wrong.
Why, just the other day, I accused you of being quite the Republican.
You just can't win here at A2K bill
Cycloptichorn
OCCOM BILL wrote:woiyo wrote:
If you want to make illegal immigration, legal, then you support:
1) Non US Citizens determining when and how they enter this country
2) You support non-citizens taking law into their own hands.
3) You support no boarder control since under you plan, anyone can come and go as they please.
That makes you a traitor to the Constitution.
If you really believe
any of that; you are an idiot. I toyed with offering you the option of illiterate, but you've proven you can read... just can't comprehend.
Don't let the facts get in the way of your fantasy.
Fact is as stated prior.
You can not argue facts, so start dropping names.
Who's the idiot?
OCCOM BILL wrote:Foxfyre wrote: At least he seems to agree with me that Obill is now fully integrated into the liberal camp.
)
That has to be about your dumbest talking point yet. I think you'd agree that Deb is among the most notable liberals on A2K, and the last time we engaged on a subject; she suggested I kill myself.
Don't kid yourself; I remain fiercely independent and you are simply wrong.
If I'm wrong, then get back to being Obill and making reasoned logical arguments instead of slinging insults at people. Insult in lieu of reason, logic, and/or verifiable facts is the liberal way, not the conservative or independent way. When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck. . . .
I have long maintained that immigration is not a liberal/conservative issue. The results of the poll on this thread are a small sample, of course, but graphically illustrate that the issue crosses all socio/political lines. On a forum like A2k where liberals outnumber conservatives easily 3 or 4 to 1, you see a substantial majority supporting pro-enforcement.
When you call those of us who disagree with you racist, bigoted, idiots, and worse, especially those of us who care enough about the poor to be doing hands on work to deal constructively with that, you are much worse than just wrong.
Fox, re-read the thread again. I and others thoroughly debunked virtually every objection you produced. You ignored reams of facts and steadfastly pretend they weren't even presented. That's why I'm so annoyed with you. I couldn't care less that you disagree. Most of my favorite posters disagree with me MOST of the time. It is the denial of proven FACT that I can't stand and the reason you've drawn the kind of disdain a poster like Finn never could, despite the fact that he's rarely as courteous as you almost invariably are.
OCCOM BILL wrote:Fox, re-read the thread again. I and others thoroughly debunked virtually every objection you produced. You ignored reams of facts and steadfastly pretend they weren't even presented. That's why I'm so annoyed with you. I couldn't care less that you disagree. Most of my favorite posters disagree with me MOST of the time. It is the denial of proven FACT that I can't stand and the reason you've drawn the kind of disdain a poster like Finn never could, despite the fact that he's rarely as courteous as you almost invariably are.
No, you have NOT debunked every point raised by me or other conservatives on this thread except in your own narrow (at least on this subject) little mind. One posted comment against a dozen others showing different information does not constitute a 'debunking'. You have consistently referred to those with a different opinion as bigots, racists, idiots, etc. etc. etc. while not even attempting to deal with the evidence presented. Your tactic has been to declare anything racist that did not agree with you.
There are some questions that might have been debated to a different conclusion than I now hold if you, ebrown, and a couple of others had been willing to actually argue your point instead of slinging slurs. You chosen not to do that. Meanwhile you have left point after point go by or dismissed them with a slur of some kind.
And that is why I have been major annoyed with you. I don't mind that you want us to keep all the illegals and bring a lot more in. That's where your heart lies. I highly resent being called names because I think that is not the compassionate way to go and have what I believe to be defensible arguments for my point of view.
Foxfyre wrote:Insult in lieu of reason, logic, and/or verifiable facts is the liberal way, not the conservative or independent way.
That sounds like an insult to me.
kickycan wrote:Foxfyre wrote:Insult in lieu of reason, logic, and/or verifiable facts is the liberal way, not the conservative or independent way.
That sounds like an insult to me.
Well is a fact an insult? If so, guilty as charged.
OCCOM BILL wrote:okie wrote:OCCOM BILL wrote:okie wrote:So if I am unemployed, and if I am only trained to make buggy whips, I will remain unemployed forever I suppose? Great reasoning, imposter.
What are you babbling about? CI simply stated that if the unemployed applied to pick fruit or wash dishes; they'd soon find themselves employed. They
choose not to.
Maybe they choose not to because of substandard wages and working conditions compared to every other line of work in this country. I will guarantee you that people will work, given the jobs pay what they are worth. If you have to resort to hiring illegals to do your dirty work that everybody else deems beneath their dignity, who is bigoted here?
Here we see Okie demonstrating his ignorance. Again. The Nation has a minimum wage, and I can tell you first hand NO ONE but kids in relatively prosperous communities work for it. In Wisconsin, the minimum wage is quite a bit higher than the Fed; yet even fast food restaurants have starting wages that are higher. Still, there is a shortage of workers and I know of few restaurants that don't frequently run short staffed for this reason... even with the thousands of immigrant workers (all of whom earn according to their skill, for the 100th time).
I reject the argument that we need illegals to do the work we won't do or can't do. It is a worn out argument and one that deserves no respect. Law abiding citizens do not have to listen to your bigoted line that we have to have illegals to do the work because legal citizens are either too lazy or too good to do the jobs. Maybe it is the employers that are too cheap to pay what is necessary and too dishonest to obey the law. If we need more legal immigration, lets do it, bring them in, the people that want to work and live in this country, and let us treat them with respect instead of treating them like second class citizens. I ask again, who are the bigots here? You like to talk about bigots.
If they are good enough to do the work here, they are good enough to immigrate legally and be Americans like the rest of us. And it is not too much to ask to obey the laws and go through the proper procedure to do it. And if the jobs pay well enough and have decent working conditions, there are always enough law abiding citizens to do the jobs.
Quote:Maybe it is the employers that are too cheap to pay what is necessary and too dishonest to obey the law.
Agreed. But that's also because the consumers, ie you and I, are too cheap to pay what is necessary for the goods to be produced legally.
Now, I personally don't have a problem paying fair wages; but I would think that most Conservatives would be pissed at the prices for food going up by quite a bit.
Cycloptichorn
How are consumers supposed to know which products used substandard hiring practices? Again, it is the Federal Government that has utterly failed us, and it is the crooked employers that persist in illegal practices. There are enough laws already if they would only enforce them. I am fed up with Washington on this.
okie wrote:How are supposed to know which products used substandard hiring practices? Again, it is the Federal Government that has utterly failed us, and it is the crooked employers that persist in illegal practices. There are enough laws already if they would only enforce them. I am fed up with Washington on this.
.
I agree that enforcement of hiring practices isn't being done, and it's the biggest part of the problem. And it's easy to see why Republicans won't push for this - it's bad for business. And Democrats' won't either - it's bad for the minority vote.
But, something must be done about enforcement...
As for the products, if you're buying a house that you didn't make yourself, or eating vegetables that weren't boutique organic ones, you've bought products that used substandard hiring practices, guaranteed.
Cycloptichorn
okie wrote:OCCOM BILL wrote:okie wrote:OCCOM BILL wrote:okie wrote:So if I am unemployed, and if I am only trained to make buggy whips, I will remain unemployed forever I suppose? Great reasoning, imposter.
What are you babbling about? CI simply stated that if the unemployed applied to pick fruit or wash dishes; they'd soon find themselves employed. They
choose not to.
Maybe they choose not to because of substandard wages and working conditions compared to every other line of work in this country. I will guarantee you that people will work, given the jobs pay what they are worth. If you have to resort to hiring illegals to do your dirty work that everybody else deems beneath their dignity, who is bigoted here?
Here we see Okie demonstrating his ignorance. Again. The Nation has a minimum wage, and I can tell you first hand NO ONE but kids in relatively prosperous communities work for it. In Wisconsin, the minimum wage is quite a bit higher than the Fed; yet even fast food restaurants have starting wages that are higher. Still, there is a shortage of workers and I know of few restaurants that don't frequently run short staffed for this reason... even with the thousands of immigrant workers (all of whom earn according to their skill, for the 100th time).
I reject the argument that we need illegals to do the work we won't do or can't do. It is a worn out argument and one that deserves no respect. Law abiding citizens do not have to listen to your bigoted line that we have to have illegals to do the work because legal citizens are either too lazy or too good to do the jobs. Maybe it is the employers that are too cheap to pay what is necessary and too dishonest to obey the law. If we need more legal immigration, lets do it, bring them in, the people that want to work and live in this country, and let us treat them with respect instead of treating them like second class citizens. I ask again, who are the bigots here? You like to talk about bigots.
If they are good enough to do the work here, they are good enough to immigrate legally and be Americans like the rest of us. And it is not too much to ask to obey the laws and go through the proper procedure to do it. And if the jobs pay well enough and have decent working conditions, there are always enough law abiding citizens to do the jobs.
I am fully behind Okie on this. Farm laborers should be paid appropriately and farms that employ illegals should be fined enough to make the hiring of illegals prohibitive. I would gladly pay more for produce knowing that our countries laws were being enforced. Perhaps we could shift some of ridiculous farm subsidies to actual working farms to help supplement labor costs.
McGentrix wrote:okie wrote:OCCOM BILL wrote:okie wrote:OCCOM BILL wrote:okie wrote:So if I am unemployed, and if I am only trained to make buggy whips, I will remain unemployed forever I suppose? Great reasoning, imposter.
What are you babbling about? CI simply stated that if the unemployed applied to pick fruit or wash dishes; they'd soon find themselves employed. They
choose not to.
Maybe they choose not to because of substandard wages and working conditions compared to every other line of work in this country. I will guarantee you that people will work, given the jobs pay what they are worth. If you have to resort to hiring illegals to do your dirty work that everybody else deems beneath their dignity, who is bigoted here?
Here we see Okie demonstrating his ignorance. Again. The Nation has a minimum wage, and I can tell you first hand NO ONE but kids in relatively prosperous communities work for it. In Wisconsin, the minimum wage is quite a bit higher than the Fed; yet even fast food restaurants have starting wages that are higher. Still, there is a shortage of workers and I know of few restaurants that don't frequently run short staffed for this reason... even with the thousands of immigrant workers (all of whom earn according to their skill, for the 100th time).
I reject the argument that we need illegals to do the work we won't do or can't do. It is a worn out argument and one that deserves no respect. Law abiding citizens do not have to listen to your bigoted line that we have to have illegals to do the work because legal citizens are either too lazy or too good to do the jobs. Maybe it is the employers that are too cheap to pay what is necessary and too dishonest to obey the law. If we need more legal immigration, lets do it, bring them in, the people that want to work and live in this country, and let us treat them with respect instead of treating them like second class citizens. I ask again, who are the bigots here? You like to talk about bigots.
If they are good enough to do the work here, they are good enough to immigrate legally and be Americans like the rest of us. And it is not too much to ask to obey the laws and go through the proper procedure to do it. And if the jobs pay well enough and have decent working conditions, there are always enough law abiding citizens to do the jobs.
I am fully behind Okie on this. Farm laborers should be paid appropriately and farms that employ illegals should be fined enough to make the hiring of illegals prohibitive. I would gladly pay more for produce knowing that our countries laws were being enforced. Perhaps we could shift some of ridiculous farm subsidies to actual working farms to help supplement labor costs.
I'm adding my amen. Despite still another slur incorrectly thrown at us, one of the points the pro-immigration side has consistently made is that we don't mind paying another quarter for a head of lettuce or a cut of meat or any other product when the cost is necessary for honest production of that product. These extra costs will not be inflationary because decent wages reduce need for costly social services provided by the tax payer. I would far rather see good market driven wages and a booming economy that lifts all boats over a bigger and more costly welfare state any day. (That is a conservative principle but I think some liberals might share it.)
Going back to a previous post (that was ignored by the open borders crowd), those raided meat packing plants in Nebraska had absolutely no problem filling those jobs with legal workers. They did have to significantly raise their wages, however, and that helped not only the workers but the community. And I haven't noticed any significant increase in meat prices while a case of mad cow disease found in Canada sends meat prices up so that we all notice.
A comprehensive guest worker program could provide good wages for workers to take home to their families, would solve any residual labor shortages, and essentially eliminate most of the problems we have with illegals skulking around undetected in the basement of society.
Yeah, screw the people less able to defend themselves - including the handicapped.
That's great that the 3 of you have joined hands in agreement. Perhaps if you bury your heads in the sand real close to each other; you'll still be able to hear each other's nonsense. Cyclops, you may as well join them, because although you at least have the decency to face the truth of the situation as it exists today; you too are in error as to what constitutes "the biggest part of the problem"... poverty... not unscrupulous employers.
On the other side of the proposed fence; people earn 25 cents on the dollar compared to Americans and fully 40% of the population is below the poverty line (usa=12%). There is very little unemployment... but too many jobs don't pay enough to get by. They bust their ass's anyway, because it really isn't that hard to do, the only thing you can do. So they pack 2 and 3 generations into a tiny apartment and get by the best they can... hoping this year will be better than the last. But it won't. And they know it. They're no dumber or less human than you or I and if human beings have one skill animals never will; it's thinking outside of the box. So, you've got a dozen or so intelligent beings, brainstorming daily how they can improve their shitty lot in life. It's no secret where the money is, is it?
Now, travel to the United States, just a chance to maybe brave your way through the dessert seems like the most logical solution to me. But even this requires more money than your average Mexican can reasonably save. So they make pacts and draw straws (quite literally, sometimes, I'm told) to see which of the strongest, most capable among them will go first. They pool their money together and finally have enough money for just one of them to make "a run for the border". Now he needs to be fairly well financed, because with the increased security; it's liable to take him 2 or 3 tries, and he risks getting robbed, beaten down, or disappeared on either side of the border.
He arrives in "The Land of the Free "and immediately gets hooked up with passable papers on the new underground railroad to some form of labor. He doesn't much care what; because anything is better than what he came from. Here he learns the ins and the outs of Illegal American Alien life, probably lives in a similarly overpopulated household (they frequently sleep in shifts), while working 70, 80, or 90 hours a week... not because the pay is so crappy; because he owes it to those he left behind. If he's a drinker, he drinks. If he's a smoker, he smokes... but a massive chunk of his income gets sent back home to mom, who in turn finances the next sibling's trip to opportunity. Now theoretically, they collectively continue this process until all members of their makeshift co-op have made their way to the USA. They dream of making enough money to return to Mexico with enough money to retire and support their families decently. They never stop sending money to the old people who can't make the journey, because they are both very religious and very family orientated as a people.
Now many, as they learn the language they naturally become better at employment negotiation and make more and more money. They intermingle with Americans and before you know it; they've integrated so well that they are living the lives of Americans, while contributing every bit as much as anyone else. The longer this goes on the more they realize how sh!tty it is that this isn't their rightful life... and God Damn it, why not? Because I was born on the wrong side of the river?
Did Uncle Sam not mangle every decent paycheck I ever got? I miss my mom. I miss my grandmother... but I never again want to live in poverty... what do I do? I understand there's a march being organized in conjunction with a "stay home from work day" to let people know that HEY! I'm human too! I contribute! I pay my taxes, I love my children and bleed red just like you do!
So now the talk is everywhere about immigration reform. You bet your ass if I think I can get away with it; I'm going to join it (I did, just because it was the right thing to do). The funny thing is, and this'll really get you. The one's who want me gone the most; don't even realize that my presence here is all about me, and mine, not them. They actually think when I was scheming to get here, when I was hiding out in the friggin desert, that it made a shred of difference if I might one day be offered citizenship. Don't get me wrong, I want it... I want it bad and would likely respect it more than the haters ever have. But do they really think that's why I came? Really? Because some old President de Estados Unitos once gave an amnesty. Are you shitting me?
Guess what Gringo; that aint it. If you were jailing employers of illegals and had gun turrets on the fence; I'd have probably came anyway... because as dangerous as it may be; it aint hard to do the only thing you can do. I needed the work. My family needed the money. My baby sister needed shoes.
Pass all the laws you want. Punish whomever you wish. Poor hungry people will always do whatever they do. And if you think their trespassing on your precious soil is an unforgivable crime; than I say you are bigots... as well as misguided fools.
The economic picture of the United States has only ever been improved by immigration and while there's no guarantees, neither is there any reason to assume past performance won't be indicative of future results. IF we're becoming too close to a welfare state; change the laws making it into a welfare state... but remember; People like Ebrown, myself, and most of the decent people I know are going to fight tooth and nail if you try to take away our friend's rice bowl... and we're Americans too. In my experience; Mexicans on average equal 1.25 to 2 US-Americans in the workplace and are a hell of a lot more appreciative of everything you give them. I consider the "welfare complaint" as trumped up as the bogus "crime stats" the bigots attempt to peddle.
Decriminalization is the solution to drugs, prostitution, gambling, and most illegal immigration. Do that, and you'll have more than enough leftover peace officers and jail space to go after the people who really need to get got.
When I look out my window and see that 40% of my next-door neighbors are living in poverty because of a crappy landlord; I start thinking about a massive campaign on their airwaves to get staged-annexation on the next ballet... NOT a good reason to turn my back.
But ya'll go ahead and continue to pretend it has anything to do with you and your stupid laws.
Shrug. I'm not against the people who make up the illegal alien population, I'm against the societal problems both caused and experienced by them.
I'd like to see a solution to the problem which appeals to both sides AND works in the real world: amnesty for those who are here, and a closing of the border for those who aren't.
Although I don't want to see the US annex Mexico, I don't want to see us ignore them either. I would support an effort to increase their quality of life to the point where they don't feel it is necessary to attempt to come here.
It's interesting to me, that the poor hungry folks don't try their hardest to sneak into other countries besides the US; this is in part because of the riches we have here and in part because of our geographical boundaries. But this isn't something which is impossible to end. You just have to make it difficult enough to constitute an unacceptable risk.
It seems to me that if these folks who want a better life so badly would work more on improving the conditions in their own country - and we are talking about people who are willing to work very hard, remember, for a better life - then they wouldn't have to come here. So why don't they do that?
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote: It's interesting to me, that the poor hungry folks don't try their hardest to sneak into other countries besides the US; this is in part because of the riches we have here and in part because of our geographical boundaries.
Like where? There neighbors are about as poor or worse off than they are and no country offers the opportunity of these United States. You'd be looking at the whole of the European Union to best our individual wealth.
Cycloptichorn wrote: But this isn't something which is impossible to end. You just have to make it difficult enough to constitute an unacceptable risk.
Landmines? Bullets for poor hungry people?
Cycloptichorn wrote:It seems to me that if these folks who want a better life so badly would work more on improving the conditions in their own country - and we are talking about people who are willing to work very hard, remember, for a better life - then they wouldn't have to come here. So why don't they do that?
A great deal of them do, and have in vain, but they're as human as you and I and it doesn't take a genius to figure out the path of least resistance. You will find Americans do not have the stomach to put up the resistance that would be necessary to significantly change this equation. If I'm proven wrong on that; then I'll be ashamed to call myself one.
Cyclo, When the government of any third world country is corrupt, there isn't much any one citizen can do. Even the potential in Russia is handicapped by the corrupt government and mafia, and those in the professions cannot maximize their potential.
When we visited Romania a couple of years ago, our local guide in Bucharest was a dentist; he could earn more money as a tour guide than he can in his profession.
When we talk about those in third world countries without any skills or the necessary education to earn a "decent" living after decades of trying to improve their country, the next best thing is to find a country where the living standard is better. For most countries in the south of us, that means the US. Even Costa Rica has illegal immigrant problems from their neighboring countries, because they happen to have a much better standard of living. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why they are attracted to Costa Rica.
