What should be done about illegal immigration?

arown
You can rest assured that I am not speaking with illegal aliens. My friends and acquaintances have for the most part lived through the depression and fought for this nation in WW2 and Korea. And not one is on the side of the illegal alien

They are both republican and democrat.
I wonder if the question were addressed by referendum on the 06 election. How the vote would go. IMO it would be a resounding defeat for the pro-illegal alien crowd. pro-illegal alien crowd.

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"I believe that the US became the still powerfull nation they are, not by deporting people, but by receiving their economic aide... as well as their territories..." ?

Foxfyre - Well FF, I remember back in the day when our ambicious northern neighbors invaded our underdeveloped territory in what was the US expansionistic era. Our good General Santana signed some funky agreement to "sell" a big part of Mexican territory. You might know the story. If I remember my history lessons correct, something similar happened to another colonies, like Louisiana. I would definitely need to do some research. That explains the "territories" comment of my post.

Now, are the circumstances much different now to those existing in the 1986 amnisty period? Since when California - home of the majority of our indocumented fellows - is the US richest state? The racial minories are slowly becoming a major sector in some places, let's think L.A.

If America is known for something, is for its cultural diversification. It's a land of working inmigrants, filled with people that have last names with origins from other continents. I always imagine that "It's a Small World" attraction in Disneyland.

I have yet to know an illegal alien that lives on welfare...

However, I totally understand some of your positions. Don't get me wrong, if millions of central-americans find in Mexico their illegal home, I would definitely get mad...

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el_pohl

Quote:

I have yet to know an illegal alien that lives on welfare...

Could it be because they are unable to apply for it?
Who do you think foots the bill for their visits to hospitals and the cost of educating their children?

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Okay, thinking out loud here, what if:

1) The new immigration policy deports anybody here illegally and closes the border, BUT. . . .

2) Those who can document that they have been here for awhile and have kept their noses clean and who have a job are put first in line for a guest work permit. An employer would have to request that the worker be allowed in on the work permit to do a bonafide job. That way they have to go back home first, but they could come right back legally with work permit in hand.

3) Only those in the country legally would be eligible to apply for citizenship and they have to make an application and get in line for admission through standard channels just like everybody else does.

That looks like it would get us past the amnesty issue that is so distasteful to so many and would allow for an orderly re-entry of workers that we might need.

To those (DTOM, W, ebrown, and others) who suggest that employers should be held accountable for hiring illegals, I again refer you to those policies implement under Carter and then again under Reagan that made things worse for employers and workers. Let employers hire and then document, and you have employers who will utilize day workers only and nobody get permanent work. Require documentation first, and the employer can't hire somebody to work that day when he's really in a bind. And with forged documents being a booming cottage industry in just about every state, you need a whole new bureaucracy just to do on-the-spot background checks to keep an employer from 'criminalizing' himself if he hires somebody using phony documents.

Again, all those laws are still on the books but are ignored almost everywhere. Why? Because 12 million undocumented workers have simply overwhelmed the system. Make it much more difficult for undocumented workers to get in, however, and make it much more easy to hire documented workers as needed, and then it might make it possible for employers to obey the law too.

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The solution is very simple but distasteful to many. It is time IMO for a national identity card. One which is similar to an automobile licensee, and would have to be updated periodically.

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tattoo you.

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tattoo no. Chip implant yes :wink:

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the difference being?

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el_pohl wrote:

"I believe that the US became the still powerfull nation they are, not by deporting people, but by receiving their economic aide... as well as their territories..." ?

Foxfyre - Well FF, I remember back in the day when our ambicious northern neighbors invaded our underdeveloped territory in what was the US expansionistic era. Our good General Santana signed some funky agreement to "sell" a big part of Mexican territory. You might know the story. If I remember my history lessons correct, something similar happened to another colonies, like Louisiana. I would definitely need to do some research. That explains the "territories" comment of my post.

Now, are the circumstances much different now to those existing in the 1986 amnisty period? Since when California - home of the majority of our indocumented fellows - is the US richest state? The racial minories are slowly becoming a major sector in some places, let's think L.A.

If America is known for something, is for its cultural diversification. It's a land of working inmigrants, filled with people that have last names with origins from other continents. I always imagine that "It's a Small World" attraction in Disneyland.

I have yet to know an illegal alien that lives on welfare...

However, I totally understand some of your positions. Don't get me wrong, if millions of central-americans find in Mexico their illegal home, I would definitely get mad...

I certainly don't defend every expansionist move made by those who carved a new nation out of the territories that now make up the United States, but then the policies, practices, and activities of the former conquerors of those lands don't always meet the smell test on the nobility meter either.. I doubt you could find an inhabited square mile anywhere on earth that wasn't conquered by somebody at the expense of somebody else. I guess I would say if we are going to give anything back, we'll give it back to the original owners. I think that might be pretty hard to identify however. I think the prudent policy is to appreciate those nations that have learned to prosper without the need to conquer others.

Also we might appreciate those nations that have matured to the point and who value freedom so that the people no longer feel a need to secede from their former owners as did the original colonies, Texas, et al.

There are indeed illegals in the United States who are drawing welfare benefits as well as numerous other social services benefits via order of our courts. This has strained the ability of some communities to meet anybody's needs.

But thank you for acknowledging the thorniest issue in this whole debate, however. Indeed I think the good people of Mexico would not appreciate being overwhelmed by large numbers of illegally immigrated Americans willing to work for smaller wages than those paid to the Mexicans, demanding and getting free food, housing, medical benefits, education for their children, and other services that the Mexican are required to pay for themselves If those Americans should demand that the schools teach their children in English and provide then ballots and signs and documents in English so they never needed to learn Spanish, and if those Americans then marched and demonstrated and protested in the streets carrying Mexican flag upside down and demanding that the towns incorporate the American culture. . . . .

If Americans did all that, wouldn't you be really annoyed?

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el_pohl wrote:

However, I totally understand some of your positions. Don't get me wrong, if millions of central-americans find in Mexico their illegal home, I would definitely get mad...

are you okay with legal immigrants coming to live in mexico, el pohl ?

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I have to say that whatever policy Mexico has re illegal immigration has zero bearing on the current US of A policy.

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el_pohl wrote:

If this millions of people DO get deported (which in a logistic matter seems quite a challenge), who's gonna fill their jobs? This is an important productive sector of your economy, not only because the work they do, but because they require services, attend schools, shop in supermarkets... etc, etc, etc.

I don't feel capable of holding a debate in this forums, yet, in my opinion, inmigration problems will always exist if we have common boundaries. Specially if one side holds hungry people of several 3rd world nations, and the other side is the capitalistic leader of the world.

Physical barriers may exist, but if there's a will, there's a way.

I dont like the term America .

Remember "outsourcing" and "global economy." The U.S. has employed half of India (well, it seems) and Pakistan, and we've got them working in China, too.

Where does Mexico come in? My husband worked in one of the auto plants there, as did so many Americans, teaching them then leaving them to run these plants on their own. Suppose we could teach them to mail out all those letters enticing us to get new charge accounts, home equity loans, as do the people of India and Pakistan, etc.

Why is this not happening in Mexico? I still think they should return to Mexico and march in the street for outsourcing. What is the matter with the leaders of that country? Why are the people not up in arms?

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Woah, I've never been that quoted before!

- AU1929 -

Hospitals? Education? Well, well... I have to be honest with you, I believed that illegal aliens don't receive this type of benefits. They dont have social security nor driver's license, right?. On the other hand, they don't pay taxes. That, at a given moment, could be a benefit of legalizing them.

- FOXFYRE -

It is important to have the ability of observing both sides of the coin. That being said, of course I would Foxfyre.

- SUNLOVER -

"Outsourcing" and "Global Economy" are terms that make me shiver. Throughout history, in Latin America, the US has implemented those capitalistic "tools" to various extents. Yes, they have generated millions of workstations, yet, they carry a price that is, sometimes, unseen in a short timeframe. An interesting thread that matter should make.

- DontTreadonMe -

Sure! And we do have them. Senior US citizens have found retirement spaces here in the Baja. In a way, I'm happy that they find something in my country good enough to stay. Sometimes, I ask myself what.

Again... I could never be able of understanding your situation fully, simply because I'm on the other side.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Perhaps the citizens you speak with aren't a representative sample. You certainly didn't ask me.

We talk of the US being a democracy. In the end, this is how we will prevail.

Illegal aliens, not being citizens, don't get to vote in American elections

I'm perfectly happy leaving the decision on illegal immigrants to American voters --are you?

It is a foolish mistake to assume that a even 1 million people marching through the streets of American cities are representative of the will of the American electorate.

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Reporting from Seattle:

Yesterday, I witnessed a large mass of people marching along a street of Seattle to publicly register their opinions on this subject.

The overwhelming majority of these people were Latinos.

Noticeably, they carried with them American flags. Clearly the organizers of the march were careful to try and avoid the PR pitfall of prior marches in which Mexican flags were prevalent.

I watched the throngs move down the street for at least 20 minutes and didn't see a single Mexican flag. What I did see was a fair number of people with massive bunches of American flags handing out the miniature versions of Old Glory to the marchers. I think it's a reasonable assumption that these marchers didn't come to the event with the desire to wave an American flag.

Interestingly enough, today's front page of the Seattle newspaper featured a photo of the crowd waving five & dime store American flag miniatures, but at the forefront of the picture was a huge red banner bearing the image of none other than Che Guevera. A couple of rows back were signs which seemed to suggest illegal Mexican immigrants were, somehow, political refugees.

The whole time I watched the parade, I never saw such banners or signs so it's possible that the front page pictures spoke more to the editorial bias of the newspaper than the prevalent sentiment among the marchers.

Additionally interesting was the fact that during the period of time I was witness to the march, it was inspired by the PA amplified voices of African-Americans chanting in a hip hop cadence that America is a very bad place and needs to be captured by The People.

Of particular note was that a very large percentage of the Latino marchers consisted of entire families: Dad, Mom and little kids. It made a compelling impression.

For all I know, few members of these families understood a single word of the political rhetoric being spouted by organizers and guest rappers. Rather, it appeared that they were there to take part in an event which they believed might possibly influence their individual fates.

It is, I would argue, tough to find fault with families marching in the streets to register an expression of their hopes and dreams. If at all possible, I would happily have granted citizenship to all such alien families on the spot. I am quite content to welcome such folks to the American Family of citizens.

It's tough to consider this issue without taking into account the perverse rhetorical nonsense of the Left, but the vast majority of immigrants, legal or illegal are decent people who want only to improve the lot in life of their families. Why would we not want such people to be part of our nation?

My bet is that the vast majority of them are more than willing to follow a route of reasonable assimilation, and would not be marching in the streets if the Law required them to learn English and, in certain ways, blend themselves into our society. Unfortunately they, instead, are being led afield by misguided Liberals who encourage them to believe that they deserve to live in America as Mexicans, irrespective of the laws of the land from which they hope to prosper.

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el_pohl writes

Quote:

Sure! And we do have them. Senior US citizens have found retirement spaces here in the Baja. In a way, I'm happy that they find something in my country good enough to stay. Sometimes, I ask myself what.

But all or virtualy all Americans living in Mexico are there legally too. Mexico takes a very hard line and can deal quite harshly with those who presume to thumb their noses at any Mexican law. I have friends who retired in Mexico for whatever reasons, but they applied for the proper permissions, papers, and jumped through all the necessary hoops to do so. Your country has much to commend it and is appreciated by many on our side of the border. And I can see how it could be appealing and advantageous to some to live there. I and mine will be vacationing there later this year.

Likewise there are many Mexican citizens living legally in the United States too. They applied for the proper permissions, papers, and jumped through all the necessary hoops to do so. These people are absolutely not a problem.

It is those who ignore or defy the law of the land in either country that is the issue here.

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Finn writes

Quote:

My bet is that the vast majority of them are more than willing to follow a route of reasonable assimilation, and would not be marching in the streets if the Law required them to learn English and, in certain ways, blend themselves into our society. Unfortunately they, instead, are being led afield by misguided Liberals who encourage them to believe that they deserve to live in America as Mexicans, irrespective of the laws of the land from which they hope to prosper.

Based on the changing tactics of marchers in other places, too, I think these are being organized and orchestrated by people who may or may not have the best interests of the United States at heart.

I also suspect that the vast majority of the marchers are a) school kids few personal convictions and little political understanding who just want to fit in with others and enjoy getting out of school and doing something different for a day; b) people with little or no understanding of the issues involved but who are paid, bullied, cajoled to participate or who just don't want to offend their neighbors by sitting out. (This is confirmed in my mind after seeing or hearing a number of 'man on the street' interviews with some of these folks.)

The vast majority of Mexican-born people, both naturalized citizens and those here with green cards, who call into our local radio station, have expressed strong sentiment that any others who come should do so legally, not illegally. They do not believe that people who have broken the law should be rewarded in any way. This suggests that there may not be as much "Latino backlash' as some are predicting if we simply enforce our laws. Certainly a majority of American citizens are not in favor of any measure that is or looks like amnesty at this time.

That puts our elected representatives in a tough spot, but we can hope they can rise to the occasion and deal with it.

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Foxfyre,

You are awfully deluded. Which of your categories does the ADL fall into?

Quote:

"As a community that has suffered the consequences of a restrictive immigration policy, we are committed to ensuring that America's immigration policy is fair, humane, and serves our nation's interests," said Barbara B. Balser, ADL National Chair, and Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director.

The ADL leaders stressed that, "the tenor and outcome of our national debate over the fate of undocumented persons in the U.S. will speak volumes about how America welcomes and embraces foreigners from many lands who come here seeking refuge and opportunity."

Following the resolution's passage, ADL joined other Jewish organizations in a letter calling on Senators to adopt an immigration reform package that addresses the reality of the large population of undocumented workers living in our communities who currently lack meaningful rights under our law and are subject to exploitation.

ADLUSA

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And what about the Catholic Church.

Quote:

One of the goals of the campaign is to try to change laws “so that immigrants can support their families in dignity, families can remain united, and the human rights of all are respected,” Cardinal McCarrick stated.

“However, before we can change our laws we must also change attitudes, including those of many of our own flock,” the Cardinal said.

Cardinal McCarrick said the U.S. Bishops have grown increasingly concerned with the current public discourse surrounding immigrants, in which newcomers are characterized as a threat to the nation and not a benefit. “Anti-immigrant fervor on TV and radio shows, citizens attempting to enforce immigration laws, and, most disturbingly, the enactment of restrictive immigration laws are evidence of this negative public environment,” the Cardinal said.

“We are here today to add the voice of the Church to the public discourse and to remind Catholics, as well as all Americans, that we are, and should remain, a nation of immigrants,” Cardinal McCarrick stated.

Council of Catholic Bishops

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The march I attended included Catholics, Bible-believing Christians, Asian-American citizens, Union members as well as college students and friends of immigrants.

Ghandi said it well "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win".

I am in a very optimistic mood right now.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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