What should be done about illegal immigration?

Bill, please support your statements about painlessly taking in billions, and desalination on a massive scale. I bet you can't.

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Advocate wrote:

Bill, please support your statements about painlessly taking in billions, and desalination on a massive scale. I bet you can't.

You really must learn to do your own homework.

Your billions statement is a poor paraphrase of a comparison to China. IF 1BILLION PEOPLE MOVED HERE; CHINA WOULD STILL HAVE MORE PEOPLE, LESS SPACE, A LOT LESS MONEY, AND CERTAINLY LESS RESOURCES. This is a fact. China, btw, isn't even close to the most densely populated nation on Earth (73rd). The State of New Jersey is already 3 times more population dense than China. Do you have any idea how much open space there is in this Country? Enough on that. Proving sh!t to you is probably going to prove a waste of time, anyway.

Desalination:
70% of Saudi Arabia (Pop: 27+ million) are served by desalinated water plants... which means they produce enough for over 19,000,000 people right NOW. And there are plans to build more. In other words Massive Scale->Been Done. Do you really think it'll be tough to repeat? Rolling Eyes

http://www.water-technology.net/projects/shuaiba/

CWCO trades on the Nasdaq. See if you guess what they do for a living? There is nothing new about Desalination; it's been done for centuries. There is a town just North of here that relies solely on desalinated water and they estimate the cost is roughly double the old fashion method.

Hence: We don't have a shortage of water; we have a shortage of empathy for our fellow man.

Learn to do your own homework.

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For an satellite image of your SWCC plant at Shoaiba check out 20/40/36 N and 39/31/26 E on Google Earth.

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Advocate wrote:

Bill, please support your statements about painlessly taking in billions, and desalination on a massive scale. I bet you can't.

... and then, of course, there's Israel's desalination master plan. I thought you might appreciate this, Advocate:

Quote:

The Ashkelon unit is the first major step in the Israeli government's desalination master plan.

North Africa and the Middle East are facing water shortage problems. They hold more than six percent of the world's population but less than two percent of the planet's renewable fresh water.

Israel decided to address this problem five years ago by launching a desalination project which plans the construction of several seawater treatment sites along its Mediterranean coastline.

The Ashkelon unit is the first of the series. Its production represents 25 percent of Israel's initial goal of 400 million cubic meters if drinking water a year. By 2020, the country aims to produce 750 million cubic meters.

[...]

The drinking water that is produced in Ashkelon costs around 52.7 cents per cubic meter, which has been evaluated as the lowest price in the world for this kind of operation.

Amazing, innit? 52.7 cents per cubic meter, that's about the price of tap water in California. And 100 million cubic meters/year at the moment and 750 million by 2020, that definitely seems to be "desalination on a massive scale". Wouldn't you agree?

Amazing.

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Interesting OE, but they've apparently shaved that price roughly in half in Tampa, FL http://www.tampabaywater.org/watersupply/tbdesalschedule.aspx
I did some numbers and if they're correct we should all hang our heads in shame....

According to the UN: Water is central to alleviating poverty (big shock, right).
800 million people don't have enough food and water to live healthy lives.

1.1 billion don't an improved water supply, and 2.6 billion lack proper sanitation, which causes between 300-500 million episodes of sickness and 1.6 to 2.5 million deaths.

So, the Saudis serve 19 milllion,, representing 30% of the worlds current desalination beneficiaries. So; some 63 million people are already being served desalinatied water. A 20 fold increase in that output would provide improved water to every human on earth. This is "incredibly stupid"? Not solving the f*cking problem is what's incredibly stupid.

If the prices couldn't be improved upon (absurd, they've been falling for years); I found a super effecient plant going online shortly in Tampa. Using the Tampa facilities figures:
$100,000,000 Per facility 88 facilities totaling $8.8 Billion Dollars upfront.
25,000,000 per day output of drinkable water per... At $2 per 1,000.
Humans need about 1.584 gallons per day let's just say two for inflation and fudge-factoring.
Each plant then takes care of 12,500,000 people daily; so theoretically 88 such plants should serve the 1.1 Billion people in need. (Obviously size and quantity would very, and I'm not figuring for piping)
Daily cost is $50,000 per facility ($.004 per person) = Total $4,400,000.
Yearly cost:$18,250,000 per facility ($1.46 per person)= Total $1,606,000,000 Annually. That's it? Really?

None of this looks undoable. It looks friggin pathetic that it hasn't been done. We'll spend $50 Billion this year to put an unnoticeable dent in drug use, for Dog's sake. Thomas; please tell me it wouldn't be this simple. Sad

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

The simple FACT is; the majority of illegals would like to "follow the dang rules"... but not at the expense of remaining in poverty, indefinitely. Now, you can either understand that, from their perspective; or you're ignorant, bigoted or lying. Do you disagree with that sentiment?

Why do you insist upon accusing people of being bigots, liars, and ignorant, if they do not agree with you on illegal immigration? Law abiding citizens are really getting tired of that nonsense. You should have better reasoning than simply resorting to that. Look up the meaning of demagoguery, Bill.

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okie wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

The simple FACT is; the majority of illegals would like to "follow the dang rules"... but not at the expense of remaining in poverty, indefinitely. Now, you can either understand that, from their perspective; or you're ignorant, bigoted or lying. Do you disagree with that sentiment?

Why do you insist upon accusing people of being bigots, liars, and ignorant, if they do not agree with you on illegal immigration? Law abiding citizens are really getting tired of that nonsense. You should have better reasoning than simply resorting to that. Look up the meaning of demagoguery, Bill.

Okie; I asked if you could understand why the man crosses the border; not to "agree with me". Are you saying you can't understand? If you can; we've made progress. If you can't; I've little choice but to consider one of those labels. <shrugs>

As for your repeated accusation that I'm falsely calling people bigot; read up a bit to where McG substitutes Beaners for Mexicans and tell me again how I was wrong. Idea

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I don't know McG. Hispanics probably use the term about each other. I think you are becoming a bit hypersensitive. I would not use the term myself, and I agree it is ill advised. But calling people bigots every time they say something slightly politically incorrect is a bit over the top in my opinion.

Look, people cross the border to find better conditions for themselves and their families, but it is illegal, Bill. It isn't as if they are doomed to a sentence of starvation in Mexico. I could rob a bank to help my family live better, but I don't because it is illegal. I used to think laws meant something, but apparently I was wrong.

But please do not add insult to injury by calling people bigots that still believe in the rule of law, even if you don't. People are fed up with the politicians in Washington that apparently just don't get it. There are enough laws already to enforce, which are not being enforced, but somehow we are supposed to pat them on the back for making new laws to fix the problem? Utter nonsense and more hypocrisy.

To tell you the truth, I know a few illegals, and if they are hardworking law abiding citizens, I respect them, and I don't report them. The people I have no respect for are the politicians that refuse to fix the problem. And I would just as soon see the employers arrested as I would the illegals, and frankly in the long run, it would do more good to fix the problem. We must shut down the demand, and the supply will be fixed.

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I think its time for a little plain talk to the leaders of Mexico. Something like:

Hey guys, you're our friends and neighbors and we love you but it's time you had a little dose of reality. A sovereign nation loses that status if it cannot secure its own borders and we are going to do whatever is necessary to do so, although our policies won't be as harsh as yours are along your southern border. And criticizing the U.S. for alternately doing too much and too little to stop your illegal activities is not going to set too well with Americans of good will who are trying to figure a way out of the mess that your and our open borders policy has already created.

My friends, it's also time for a little introspection. Since we all agree that improving Mexico's economy will help with the illegal-immigration problem, you might want to consider your own left-of -center policies. For example, nationalized industries are not known for enhancing economic growth. Just a thought. But here's something even more to the point that you might want to think about: What does it say about the leadership of a country when that country's economy and politics are dependent upon the exportation of its own citizens?

~Fred Thompson

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We need a leader that has the Reaganesque ability to face reality and have the guts to enforce policies that need to be enforced. As it is, we have spineless politicians that are afraid of their own shadows, and afraid of offending a voter or anybody they perceive as possibly not liking them. Your quote of Thompson come closer to what we need in a president.

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What we need to do is recognize that america is not a gated community and search for ways to integrate a dynamic society into the 21st century. (oh, and stop living in the extremely bigoted and ethnocentric 18th century.)

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okie wrote:

Thompson come closer to what we need in a president.

another actor? but i thought you guys hated hollywood. Laughing

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

okie wrote:
Thompson come closer to what we need in a president.

another actor? but i thought you guys hated hollywood.

I hate the Yankees also,but I like Roger Clemens.

It is possible to dislike an organization,yet like some of the people in that organization.

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Bill, if you make a claim, it is for you to support it.

It is cute that you link to a water company for support of your desalination claim. BTW, it says that desalination provides DRINKING WATER for 70 % in SA, and says nothing about water needed for sanitation, mining, agriculture, etc. Keep in mind that Saudi Arabia is wealthy and can afford such a costly project. Here is a balanced statement on water:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3752590.stm

If you really did a little research, you would find that desalination has tremendous related economic, environmental, and cultural problems. Often, it just doesn't work.

BTW, since it appears that illegals will get amnesty, can I cheat on my taxes and not get prosecuted?

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It is quite annoying and not constructive to the debate when those who want us to open up our borders and let everybody and anybody in play the racism card whenever anybody else objects to that. It is NOT bigotry of any kind to support secure borders and a sensible immigration policy.

It IS bigotry bordering on pure racism to say that any group of people of a different color, nationality, or ethnicity are incapable of helping themselves and they need "Whitey" or reasonable facsimile to rescue them.

Further it is not only poor Mexican who will pour into the United States if there are no sensible and enforcable immigration laws or policy in place. Mexico just happens to be in close proximity affording great opportunity and less chance of detection. Open our borders as Obill proposes and there are billions of poor people around the world who would love to be here.

We who look further than the end of our own nose want to help, but we know that turning the USA into another socialist country with a stagnant economy or, worse, into another third world country will make us just one more country struggling to survive and incapable of helping anybody else. The far more humane and practical approach is to give poor countries an incentive to help their people become richer.

Thompson is right. We don't help Mexicans or Mexico by condoning their policy of dumping their unwanted on us and we make life more miserable for those who stay behind. A comprehensive guest worker program takes care of the 'starving'. It will also take in as many workers as are needed to fill jobs. As far that that being interpreted as a 'lottery', perhaps so, but if there are not jobs for those who don't make the cut, what are they going to be doing here anyway? How is starving here any better than starving in Mexico? Or would some do what many without jobs are already doing and turn to burglary and car theft and worse?

It is not racism nor prejudice nor bigotry to prefer that Mexico keep its own crooks, thieves, and others who prey on the weak. We already have quite enough of our own homegrown variety of those thank you very much.

But I would prefer the bigots and racists who think Mexicans are somehow inferior and therefore must be allowed to come here to be taken care of just shove that stupid logic and get on board with helping support the best possible immigration policy that is best for the USA and best for the immigrants who come here.

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I don't think Fred Thompson is much worried whether or not some happy, clappy liberal all hot for open borders and making this country the dumping ground for the Mexican government's surplus people thinks he's a bigot or racist.

Fact is, he's right. By allowing what's presently going on, we just help the Mexican elite delay their day of reckoning. Bad for us - bad for them. Mexicans need to stand up to their corrupt government. That's all he's saying and I agree with him.

Lou Barletta, a small town mayor in Hazelton, PA cracked down on illegals (causing the ACLU's panties to bunch-up) and won not only the GOP's nomination in Tuesday's primary, but so many Dems wrote in his name, he won both tickets.

Bigots Laughing

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Advocate wrote:

Bill, if you make a claim, it is for you to support it.

It is cute that you link to a water company for support of your desalination claim. BTW, it says that desalination provides DRINKING WATER for 70 % in SA, and says nothing about water needed for sanitation, mining, agriculture, etc. Keep in mind that Saudi Arabia is wealthy and can afford such a costly project. Here is a balanced statement on water:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3752590.stm

If you really did a little research, you would find that desalination has tremendous related economic, environmental, and cultural problems. Often, it just doesn't work.

BTW, since it appears that illegals will get amnesty, can I cheat on my taxes and not get prosecuted?

No,but you can rob a bank and as long as you dont hurt anyone you can not only keep the money,but you will also be rewarded for robbing the bank by being given more money.

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The major problem is that business, large and small, (including Bill) love having the IA slave labor. The IAs can be paid less, with no benefits, and they never complain. Bush, of course, buys into this.

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mysteryman wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Bill, if you make a claim, it is for you to support it.

It is cute that you link to a water company for support of your desalination claim. BTW, it says that desalination provides DRINKING WATER for 70 % in SA, and says nothing about water needed for sanitation, mining, agriculture, etc. Keep in mind that Saudi Arabia is wealthy and can afford such a costly project. Here is a balanced statement on water:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3752590.stm

If you really did a little research, you would find that desalination has tremendous related economic, environmental, and cultural problems. Often, it just doesn't work.

BTW, since it appears that illegals will get amnesty, can I cheat on my taxes and not get prosecuted?

No,but you can rob a bank and as long as you dont hurt anyone you can not only keep the money,but you will also be rewarded for robbing the bank by being given more money.

This example only works if the bank is handing out money.

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ebrown_p wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Bill, if you make a claim, it is for you to support it.

It is cute that you link to a water company for support of your desalination claim. BTW, it says that desalination provides DRINKING WATER for 70 % in SA, and says nothing about water needed for sanitation, mining, agriculture, etc. Keep in mind that Saudi Arabia is wealthy and can afford such a costly project. Here is a balanced statement on water:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3752590.stm

If you really did a little research, you would find that desalination has tremendous related economic, environmental, and cultural problems. Often, it just doesn't work.

BTW, since it appears that illegals will get amnesty, can I cheat on my taxes and not get prosecuted?

No,but you can rob a bank and as long as you dont hurt anyone you can not only keep the money,but you will also be rewarded for robbing the bank by being given more money.

This example only works if the bank is handing out money.

No,it works the way I presented it.
You say that it only works if the bank is giving away money.
You seem to be assuming that the US is "giving away" its social services and its safety net to anyone that asks.
You seem to think that the US's largesse should be free to anyone that asks.
It shouldnt.It must be paid for somehow.

Obeying our laws (including immigration laws) shouldnt be to much to ask.

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