What should be done about illegal immigration?

Walter
Pehaps they should contact Bush for a solution. Laughing

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The ratio is slightly different, but the EU might reach and surpass the US in the next decade - or so.

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This new bill will prove to be a disaster that precludes the worst of the reasonable fears of both sides of the argument.

It will discourage new illegal entries, not at all.
It will break up families... and worse...
Criminalize not taking a Mexican vacation for poor workers whose income would be better spent of food. (A->B to ->A= IDIOCY)

Amnesty? Yep... in the stupidest possible way. The man living in Poverty on the other side of the line in the sand will not be discouraged one iota that there are 'hoops of flames' to jump through, years later if the process is repeated. The idea that he will is a fairytale for bigots.

Families will legally be forced to choose between their own best interest and keeping their families together. There can be no doubt this deliberately targets the very family orientated majority of Mexicans.

The fruit picker/dishwasher who can afford little beyond food and shelter will soon be forced to choose between groceries and an idiotic trip across the border... a trip that will accomplish absolutely nothing beyond appeasing bigots.

Let's look at who this bill helps:
12 million people get an opportunity to come out of the shadows. Anyway you slice it; this is a very good thing.

Business finds a legal alternative to hiring illegals. Yippie. (As if the prevalence of acceptable counterfeit documents hadn't already provided them a defacto legal avenue). Essentially; no change. (Which isn't all bad; I suppose that's what they were aiming for while finding a way to pretend they were actually addressing the situation, to appease the bigots).

Um, who else is helped by this? As 'New Americans' do what 'New Americans' have always done (collectively work their a$$es off until they make their own mark, in some way beyond entry level positions), the positions they vacate will need to be filled. Poor hungry people to our South will be no less desperate for something better; and they'll continue to find a way to fill the void. Will this be done with a "Guest Worker" program? Will the bigots finally be able to proudly look down their noses at the legally defined second-class citizens? Terrific.

Have any of you anti-immigration folks ever known a person on Visa to the United States, devastated by the fact there was no legal avenue to stay? I know; you think there's too many of them, right. So how best to preen that number down? How about a $5,000 fine and a mandatory, unnecessary vacation?... that's fair, right? Tell me so called, self professed, Liberals; can you even think of a more regressive strategy? Is this not punishing the impoverished for poverty? Or, do we really think the poor brave souls who braved the dessert for nothing more than a decent shot at a decent lot in life, are really going to open the checkbooks they shouldn't legally possess and write checks totaling $60,000,000,000 and give our travel industry a 10 billion dollar shot in the arm to boot? Are you sh!tting me? The bi-partisan gathering of fools celebrating this are repugnant in their collective, willful ignorance.

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Shrug. I see it as a starting point, and as time goes along and people from either side complain, aspects will be stricken.

I'm not down with the whole 5k fine, or 'leave and then come back' idiocy. Not at all.

I guess, in fact, that the only thing I really like about this bill is watching the Republican party split over it.

Cycloptichorn

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What I want to know is why are the dems trying to "fasttrack" this bill?
From what I have heard,there will be no committee hearings,no cost benefit analysis,and little to no discussion.
The bill hasnt even been written yet,so I wonder if it will be written before the dems want it voted on.

Also,if 12 million illegal aliens are automatically made legal when Bush signs the bill (and lets face it,thats whats gonna happen) how much will it cost to provide them with all of the social services citizens get?
How many of those now illegal will apply for welfare,Social Security,medicaid,and other govt programs immediately?

As I understand it,there are still way to many questions to be answered about this new bill.
Also,does anyone honestly think the govt will enforce the new provisions of this bill,when they cant or wont enforce the current immigration laws?
I dont.

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Gee, MM, currently those heads of households who can actually afford a vacation to Mexico and a $5,000 fine are probably, currently, using that dough to support their own families... wouldn't you think? Ah, but the bigots insist on "excruciating" hoops (as if the next generation of poor hungry people will give a rat's ass), so it's probably best to force the bread winners to spend that dough on vacation, while not supporting their own families, right? Rolling Eyes

Incomprehensible idiocy.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Gee, MM, currently those heads of households who can actually afford a vacation to Mexico and a $5,000 fine are probably, currently, using that dough to support their own families... wouldn't you think? Ah, but the bigots insist on "excruciating" hoops (as if the next generation of poor hungry people will give a rat's ass), so it's probably best to force the bread winners to spend that dough on vacation, while not supporting their own families, right? Incomprehensible idiocy.

Without giving any of your usual "crybaby" reasons,answer this...

Why should those who violate our laws,ANY of our laws,be rewarded for violating those laws?

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Because the US needs their labor?

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mysteryman wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Gee, MM, currently those heads of households who can actually afford a vacation to Mexico and a $5,000 fine are probably, currently, using that dough to support their own families... wouldn't you think? Ah, but the bigots insist on "excruciating" hoops (as if the next generation of poor hungry people will give a rat's ass), so it's probably best to force the bread winners to spend that dough on vacation, while not supporting their own families, right? Incomprehensible idiocy.

Without giving any of your usual "crybaby" reasons,answer this...

Please define "crybaby" reasons.

mysteryman wrote:

Why should those who violate our laws,ANY of our laws,be rewarded for violating those laws?

I don't consider a lack of interference in some poor soul's pursuit of happiness a reward. I consider "live and let live" a much better ideal, and don't require my government to mandate advantages over other men. Why do you feel you need to hold the less fortunate down? Are you so ill equipped that you need your government to stand on the necks of other unfortunates to pursue your own happiness? You speak as if another man's pursuit is an affront to your own. Is he somehow less worthy of opportunity than you for having been born on the wrong side of some arbitrary line in the sand?

I think we agree that every American rightfully has the natural right of self determination and the constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness. How did yours become hinged to denying others the same? In an ideal world; would you wish for only those born on American soil to enjoy these rights and everyone born elsewhere not to? How do you suppose they'll react?

Or would you prefer that the citizens of ALL countries get a community clue and copy that which works? How do you propose we get from here to there?

The high value bigots place on "Born in the USA" betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what truly makes this country great: The principle that "All men are created equal". The Class system of Nobles and Commoners was supposedly shattered forever in this Land of the Free, and by golly the most patriotic Americans are the most proud of this remarkable evolution... and rightly so. But wait a minute; isn't it these same proud souls that most adamantly wish to distinguish the natural right's of another man based on where he was born? Huh? How do you reconcile such blatant hypocrisy?

I am proud to think that my country is still sometimes viewed as a beacon of hope to the oppressed masses everywhere. I am ashamed that so many of my countrymen would oppose the granting of opportunity to others. I don't feel I have anything to fear from others seeking opportunity and I have little pity for the pathetic people who do.

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What a load of bullshit o'bill.

Come here legally and enjoy the American dream. Thousands do it every year. You seem to think people that are against illegal immigration are against ALL forms of immigration and that just ain't the way it is.

We have rules and regulations regarding immigration just as we do for driving, paying taxes, getting married, etc. If you want to be here legally, follow the dang rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, then get the hell out.

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McGentrix wrote:

What a load of bullshit o'bill.

Come here legally and enjoy the American dream. Thousands do it every year. You seem to think people that are against illegal immigration are against ALL forms of immigration and that just ain't the way it is.

We have rules and regulations regarding immigration just as we do for driving, paying taxes, getting married, etc. If you want to be here legally, follow the dang rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, then get the hell out.

Ya... and if you don't win the lottery; F*ck you... you're not my equal. I'm better than you and my birth certificate proves it. Sure you're not against immigration, McG. If legislation that legalized millions more new citizens each year was passed; I'd be able to hear your sobbing from here. Say it aint so.

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It aint so. Now get over it. Get over the fact that a few people actually believe in laws still yet today. If you don't like it, then lump it.

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okie wrote:

It aint so. Now get over it. Get over the fact that a few people actually believe in laws still yet today. If you don't like it, then lump it.

Tell me; how would you feel about the law being changed to allow millions of Mexicans per year to get citizenship? You're either fine with it; or you're a liar... so perhaps you should think before answering... and perhaps even retract your last statement.

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I am in favor of a liberal immigration policy, that would allow law abiding Mexicans to immigrate and gain citizenship, with certain requirements.

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okie wrote:

I am in favor of a liberal immigration policy, that would allow law abiding Mexicans to immigrate and gain citizenship, with certain requirements.

What requirements? And what limits on numbers?

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You must not have a criminal record in the country you come from, and you must pass certain medical requirements before entering, and you should agree to uphold and obey all laws of citizenship in the United States. There should be a period of time before gaining full citizenship, before which time if serious crimes are committed here, they should be deported for good.

Some propose the learning of English be a requirement. I am not sure about that one, but I believe we all should recognize English as the basic language of commerce and government.

I cannot quote a number, but it should be close to adequate to satisfy the requirements of labor in various industries currently worked by immigrants. This can be adjusted as the program progresses, or to fit economic conditions.

These thoughts are pretty preliminary, and I could refine them with additional study.

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okie wrote:

You must not have a criminal record in the country you come from, and you must pass certain medical requirements before entering, and you should agree to uphold and obey all laws of citizenship in the United States. There should be a period of time before gaining full citizenship, before which time if serious crimes are committed here, they should be deported for good.

Some propose the learning of English be a requirement. I am not sure about that one, but I believe we all should recognize English as the basic language of commerce and government.

I cannot quote a number, but it should be close to adequate to satisfy the requirements of labor in various industries currently worked by immigrants. This can be adjusted as the program progresses, or to fit economic conditions.

These thoughts are pretty preliminary, and I could refine them with additional study.

Your thoughts mirror McG's not at all, so you shouldn't be answering for him, nor aligning yourself with him.

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His opinions are usually pretty reasonable. And I agree with this quote that you attacked him for:

"Come here legally and enjoy the American dream. Thousands do it every year. You seem to think people that are against illegal immigration are against ALL forms of immigration and that just ain't the way it is.

We have rules and regulations regarding immigration just as we do for driving, paying taxes, getting married, etc. If you want to be here legally, follow the dang rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, then get the hell out. "

Makes perfect sense to me. I fail to see why anyone could disagree with that. And get use to the fact that tens of millions of people in this country are getting tired of being accused of being called racists if they want the laws enforced, and that includes alot of hispanic citizens as well. Those are fightin words, and people are getting tired of the demagoguery.

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okie wrote:

His opinions are usually pretty reasonable.

I agree. This isn't one of those times.

okie wrote:

And I agree with this quote that you attacked him for:

"Come here legally and enjoy the American dream. Thousands do it every year. You seem to think people that are against illegal immigration are against ALL forms of immigration and that just ain't the way it is.

We have rules and regulations regarding immigration just as we do for driving, paying taxes, getting married, etc. If you want to be here legally, follow the dang rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, then get the hell out. "

Makes perfect sense to me. I fail to see why anyone could disagree with that. And get use to the fact that tens of millions of people in this country are getting tired of being accused of being called racists if they want the laws enforced, and that includes alot of hispanic citizens as well. Those are fightin words, and people are getting tired of the demagoguery.

"Send them all home" is bigotry, whether it's the brown man or the black man. The "law" can be changed to welcome them all, and if such a bill was proposed you'd find virtually the exact same people opposing it. McG's complaint may look good to you on paper; but it's a cop out that allows him to keep his actual complaint to himself.

The simple FACT is; the majority of illegals would like to "follow the dang rules"... but not at the expense of remaining in poverty, indefinitely. Now, you can either understand that, from their perspective; or you're ignorant, bigoted or lying. Do you disagree with that sentiment?

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Quote:

The simple FACT is; the majority of illegals would like to "follow the dang rules"...

How is that possible if they start their pursuit of the "American dream" and how can they want to "follow the dang rules" if they start by doing something illegal?

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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