ehBeth wrote:Foxfyre wrote: emotion-driven, kneejerk, judgmental, irrational liberals
is there any other kind?
Sure there are, but the language I would use to describe them would get me banned from a Navy ship.
Foxfyre wrote: I have no clue what you're saying Bill except that for whatever reason you chose a vulgar way to say it.
My apologies if that was offensive. I was aiming for comical.
Foxfyre wrote:How about forming a logical argument against the point of view that illegals should go home and come back legally?
There is absolutely nothing logical about a trip from point A to point B if your destination is point A.
Foxfyre wrote:Show me how you can allow some illegals to stay without being unfair and/or unjust to others?
Simple: prove you have the means to stay via Income, Savings or Sponsor, no criminal history beyond immigration nonsense or get out.
Foxfyre wrote:And tell me where you draw the line on what is acceptable illegal behavior and what is unacceptable legal behavior.
Criminal Codes minus immigration nonsense.
Foxfyre wrote:Otherwise you run the risk of sounding an awful lot like emotion-driven, kneejerk, judgmental, irrational liberals who can't formulate any kind of argument that isn't focused on bashing a Republican/conservative/George Bush or whatever.
There is nothing irrational in my position, whether you agree with it or not. Irrational is forcing a low income family to spend thousands of dollars on a trip to nowhere for no reason other than to satisfy an archaic law that's been ignored with impunity for decades by millions of productive humans residing in these United States. Irrational is a woman living on the very soil of a man's ancestors looking down her nose at him like he's less deserving of opportunity than she because an arbitrary line in the sand was moved 180 years ago because American settlers in Texas objected to Mexico's outlawing of Slavery in all Mexican Territories. Irrational is using James Knox Polk's gratuitous land grab a few years later as an excuse to perpetuate a holier than thou attitude that has never had any justification whatsoever. Never.
Ever hear Frijolero by Molotov? "Now why don't you look down
to where your feet is planted
That U.S. soil that makes you take **** for granted
If not for Santa Ana, just to let you know
That where your feet are planted would be Mexico
Correcto!"
Manhunts swamped by fugitive alien toll
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
March 27, 2007
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The federal government has spent $204 million since 2003 to hunt down and remove fugitive aliens from the United States, but it has shown little success in slowing down a burgeoning number of aliens now hiding in cities and towns across America.
More than 623,000 fugitive aliens or "absconders" are loose on the streets of America, according to a report issued yesterday by the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Inspector General -- up from 331,000 after the September 11 attacks and 418,000 in 2003.
Despite the deployment by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) of 50 Fugitive Operations Teams nationwide with the "immediate mission" to eliminate the growing backlog of fugitive aliens -- those ordered deported but who have disappeared -- it has increased annually since the program's February 2002 inception.
"The fugitive alien population is growing at a rate that exceeds the teams' ability to apprehend," said Inspector General Richard L. Skinner, noting the teams' inability "to keep pace with the increase in the backlog of fugitive aliens, not to mention reduce it."
Mr. Skinner said the backlog of fugitive aliens increased an average of 51,228 each year over a four-year period ending September 2005, and that from October 2005 to August 2006, the number jumped by 86,648.
The 68-page report said the effectiveness of fugitive teams was hampered by insufficient detention capacity, limitations of an immigration database and inadequate working space.
It also found that the teams were called on to perform duties unrelated to fugitive operations, contrary to ICE policy. Those duties included serving as firearms instructors, juvenile coordinators, jail inspectors, escorting aliens to their country of origin or from local jails to an ICE facility, taking bonds, escorting special-interest aliens to court appearances, and managing the detained and non-detained dockets.
"While team members are performing non-fugitive operations duties, they are unable to identify, locate or apprehend fugitives," Mr. Skinner said.
He said that as of March 2006, there were 11.5 million to 12 million illegal aliens living in the United States and that by August 2006, ICE estimated a backlog of 623,292 fugitive aliens. He said fugitive aliens made up 5.4 percent of the illegal-alien population.
Mr. Skinner also noted that weekly field office reports sent to ICE headquarters did not always reflect accurately what the fugitive teams had done, adding that they sometimes included apprehensions made by other law-enforcement agencies or cases closed because of an alien's death, voluntary departure from the country or change to legal status.
John P. Torres, director of the ICE Office of Detention and Removal Operations (DRO), said that while the agency agreed with many of the recommendations in the report and had implemented several, Mr. Skinner's office had failed to take into account "many of the positive steps already independently taken by DRO to address" problems within the agency.
The mission of the fugitive teams is to identify, locate, apprehend, process and remove fugitive aliens from the country with the highest priority being those who have been convicted of crimes, including killers, rapists, drug dealers and child molesters.
Coordinated through an ICE initiative known as the National Fugitive Operations Program, the teams translate to about 500 agents looking for more than 623,000 alien fugitives hiding in cities from Seattle and Los Angeles to Miami and Washington
Are these the honest hard working people we continue hear about ??
Quote:
He said fugitive aliens made up 5.4 percent of the illegal-alien population.
The honest hard-working part would be in the 94.6%.
We all agree that having a large number of people being forced to live in the shadows is a bad thing.
This is why a path to citizenship, which would let the honest hard-working 94.6% of immigrants come out of the shadows, be background checked and then live a normal life with proper ID is such a good idea.
If only the 5.4% of people who commit serious (i.e. violent) crimes are living in the shadows, it will be much easier to find them.
Honest? How honest can you be by being here illegally?
Brown
Brown that is over a half a million fugitives!!! If the immigration laws were enforced they would not be in the US. However, as I suspected your cure as always is to make them all legal.
au1929 wrote:Brown
Brown that is over a half a million fugitives!!! If the immigration laws were enforced they would not be in the US. However, as I suspected your cure as always is to make them all legal.
Bull. We are enforcing drug laws (as seen by the fact the incarceration rate in the US is the highest in the developed world).
There are still plenty of drug fugitives...
Brown,
We have enough home grown criminals. We have no need to import and support those from other countries.
ebrown_p wrote:If only the 5.4% of people who commit serious (i.e. violent) crimes are living in the shadows, it will be much easier to find them.
Further, were that the case, your efforts wouldn't suffer from sympathetic citizens (like myself) who wouldn't turn a man in for having a 1 in 20 chance of being a criminal. By removing the barrier to legality, you eliminate the hiding places as well. The vast majority of people who'll turn the blind eye to immigration violators would not intentionally do so for criminals. The vast majority of Citizens (whether they are bigots or not) believe in Law enforcement against
actual criminals.
There is a great disconnect between the reality and the presumption. In most places law enforcement isn't allowed to ask somebody if they are legal or illegal during law enforcement activity. I don't know where that 5% figure came from, but given a disproportionate number of arrests of illegals, incidents of drunk driving, illegal gang activity, drug trafficking plus violent crimes such as rape, assault, battery, armed robbery, murder, etc., a disproportionate number of illegals in this area are committing those crimes.
(And no, I'm not saying that MOST crime is being committed by illegals.)
But consider this:
The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave
Quote:
but given a disproportionate number of arrests of illegals, incidents of drunk driving, illegal gang activity, drug trafficking plus violent crimes such as rape, assault, battery, armed robbery, murder, etc., a disproportionate number of illegals in this area are committing those crimes.
I believe this is a lie. And, for the record Foxfyre, I am accusing you of repeating a lie not of telling one. But, you have been known to repeat exagerrated "facts" with no credible sources that were shown to be untrue.
I also believe that one of the primary tactics of racists is to try to paint a correlation between their target group, and crime. Many times they use shoddy logic and blown up, or fabricated facts.
I am not accusing you of being a racist. I am simply pointing out that the same things you are saying, are being said by clearly racist groups.
But the real issue here is that the point you are making is completely unsupported by facts...
Boston Globe wrote:
It may be surprising, then, to find agreement among several leading criminologists that immigration does not cause crime-and may even reduce it. None of them would argue that immigration is the most important factor everywhere, especially since the recent rise in Boston's murder rate comes as its foreign-born population continues to grow. But the increased flow of immigrants to major American cities nationwide, argues Robert J. Sampson, a Harvard sociologist and lead author of a major recent study on the topic, ''has been one of the more plausible explanations that we've seen for the decrease in the violence rate."
Link
If you stick to fact on your side... that illegal immigration is illegal, you have an OK, not great but OK, argument.
The fact that you continue to feel the need to add clearly false, inflammatory rhetoric, based on one-sided rhetoric that in many cases has been shown to be wildly incorrect is telling.
The connection you are trying to make between illegal immigrants, and increased crime is factually wrong and as it is defamatory toward real people and enforces stereotypes, it is morally wrong.
You're entitled to your opinion eBrown and I'm entitled to mine. I think your assertion that there is no disproportionate level of criminality among illegals in this country is also repeating a lie.
If 5% of the population is committing criminal acts, that's 15 MILLION criminals operating in this country. Among those in rural Illinois or Iowa or Arkansas, the proportion of criminals to the general population is probably considerably less than 5%. But is one criminal for every 100 people acceptable? Are you honestly comfortable with that?
Heather MacDonald brings some pretty significant credentials to the debate and she says the situation is far worse among the illegals in LA County. Are you saying she is repeating a lie? On what basis do you draw that conclusion?
Foxfyre wrote:There is a great disconnect between the reality and the presumption. In most places law enforcement isn't allowed to ask somebody if they are legal or illegal during law enforcement activity.
You mean they can't ask for legal papers?
Here, every single policemen can do that (though e.g. searching for illegal workers is done by the customs and/or labour office): you are asked for that and either present your papers or get that cleared at the police station.
