50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 12:38 pm
I have no clue what you're saying Bill except that for whatever reason you chose a vulgar way to say it.

How about forming a logical argument against the point of view that illegals should go home and come back legally? Show me how you can allow some illegals to stay without being unfair and/or unjust to others? And tell me where you draw the line on what is acceptable illegal behavior and what is unacceptable legal behavior.

Otherwise you run the risk of sounding an awful lot like emotion-driven, kneejerk, judgmental, irrational liberals who can't formulate any kind of argument that isn't focused on bashing a Republican/conservative/George Bush or whatever.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 12:43 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
emotion-driven, kneejerk, judgmental, irrational liberals


is there any other kind?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 12:44 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
emotion-driven, kneejerk, judgmental, irrational liberals


is there any other kind?


Sure there are, but the language I would use to describe them would get me banned from a Navy ship. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 12:45 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
emotion-driven, kneejerk, judgmental, irrational liberals


is there any other kind?


Yes there are. And I appreciate and enjoy many of them enormously. The ones I can't respect are those that a description would get Baldimo thrown off that ship. Smile
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 02:43 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I have no clue what you're saying Bill except that for whatever reason you chose a vulgar way to say it.
My apologies if that was offensive. I was aiming for comical.

Foxfyre wrote:
How about forming a logical argument against the point of view that illegals should go home and come back legally?
Laughing There is absolutely nothing logical about a trip from point A to point B if your destination is point A.

Foxfyre wrote:
Show me how you can allow some illegals to stay without being unfair and/or unjust to others?
Simple: prove you have the means to stay via Income, Savings or Sponsor, no criminal history beyond immigration nonsense or get out.
Foxfyre wrote:
And tell me where you draw the line on what is acceptable illegal behavior and what is unacceptable legal behavior.
Criminal Codes minus immigration nonsense.

Foxfyre wrote:
Otherwise you run the risk of sounding an awful lot like emotion-driven, kneejerk, judgmental, irrational liberals who can't formulate any kind of argument that isn't focused on bashing a Republican/conservative/George Bush or whatever.
There is nothing irrational in my position, whether you agree with it or not. Irrational is forcing a low income family to spend thousands of dollars on a trip to nowhere for no reason other than to satisfy an archaic law that's been ignored with impunity for decades by millions of productive humans residing in these United States. Irrational is a woman living on the very soil of a man's ancestors looking down her nose at him like he's less deserving of opportunity than she because an arbitrary line in the sand was moved 180 years ago because American settlers in Texas objected to Mexico's outlawing of Slavery in all Mexican Territories. Irrational is using James Knox Polk's gratuitous land grab a few years later as an excuse to perpetuate a holier than thou attitude that has never had any justification whatsoever. Never.

Ever hear Frijolero by Molotov? "Now why don't you look down
to where your feet is planted
That U.S. soil that makes you take **** for granted
If not for Santa Ana, just to let you know
That where your feet are planted would be Mexico
Correcto!"
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 03:08 pm
Wait till you ?'mercans think you can just trundle up on past our well-guarded gates! You'll need at least one comic strip from a Dubble Bubble to get pat our intense scrutiny.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 03:13 pm
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 04:49 pm
Quote:
Quote:
Border Crossers Rarely Prosecuted

Memo: Illegal Immigrants in Texas Must Have 6 Arrests Before Federal Government Will Prosecute


By ELLIOT SPAGAT

Mar 22, 2007 (AP)?- Guidelines issued by U.S. attorneys in Texas showed that most illegal immigrants crossing into the state had to be arrested at least six times before federal authorities would prosecute them, according to an internal Justice Department memo.

The disclosure provides a rare view of how federal authorities attempt to curb illegal immigration. The memo was released this week in response to a congressional investigation of the dismissals of eight U.S. attorneys.

The Border Patrol makes more than 1 million arrests a year on the U.S.-Mexico border. T.J. Bonner, head of a union representing Border Patrol agents, said it's unrealistic to prosecute all violators.

"Let's be honest, there isn't enough jail space to incarcerate everyone who crosses that border," said Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council. "If everyone demanded hearing in front of an immigration judge, it would bring our system to a grinding halt in a matter of days."

It is unclear when the memo was written, but the Justice Department reviewed the guidelines sometime after a February 2005 performance review of Carol Lam, the top federal prosecutor in San Diego from 2002 until she was fired last month. Some Republican lawmakers had complained that Lam failed to aggressively prosecute immigration violations.

Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said Thursday that immigration prosecutions are a high priority and that the government sent 30 additional attorneys to the border region in the second half of 2006. He said U.S. attorneys set guidelines that, in part, reflect local crime issues and staffing.

"Increasing the number of prosecutors will permit districts to adjust their guidelines and take in more cases," he said. "For law enforcement reasons, the department cannot discuss what the present prosecutorial guidelines are concerning the border."

The memo was written in response to Justice Department inquiries about immigration prosecutions by the five U.S. attorney offices that cover the 2,000-mile border San Diego, Phoenix, San Antonio, Houston and Albuquerque, N.M.

Guidelines vary by office, but migrants with no criminal records who have not been deported by an immigration judge will almost certainly be turned back to Mexico "numerous times" before getting prosecuted, according to another Justice Department memo dated Nov. 22, 2005. Those "voluntary returns" are booked on administrative, not criminal, violations.

Parts of the other memo are blacked out so it's unclear whether the document refers to U.S. attorneys in Houston or San Antonio.

The memo says one Texas district prosecutes migrants if the Border Patrol catches them at least six to eight times. The other district prosecutes after someone is caught at least seven times.

In late 2005, the government created a 200-mile zone near Del Rio, Texas, in which every adult arrested for illegal immigration would be prosecuted and jailed before being deported.

The San Diego office, which covers an area stretching from the Pacific Ocean to the Arizona state line, does not prosecute "purely economic migrants" as a general rule, according to the memo.

The Arizona district, the nation's busiest corridor for illegal crossings "almost certainly" declines to prosecute on a first or second offense, the memo says. The New Mexico district makes decisions based on criminal records in the U.S.

There are many exceptions to the rule, including violators with criminal records.

Representatives of the U.S. attorney offices in Houston, San Antonio, San Diego and Albuquerque declined to comment, and a call to the Arizona offices was not immediately returned.

Republican Rep. Tom Tancredo of Colorado, who advocates a crackdown on illegal immigration, said the Texas guidelines underscore a lax enforcement attitude. He said the federal government should contract for more jail space, perhaps with local governments.

"If you made it a priority of the department, you would see a reduction," Tancredo said.

Arizona's Paul Charlton and New Mexico's David Iglesias were also among the eight U.S. attorneys abruptly fired. Justice Department officials have said they were concerned about the prosecutors' approach to immigration cases.
Source
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 07:38 am
Manhunts swamped by fugitive alien toll
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
March 27, 2007




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The federal government has spent $204 million since 2003 to hunt down and remove fugitive aliens from the United States, but it has shown little success in slowing down a burgeoning number of aliens now hiding in cities and towns across America.
More than 623,000 fugitive aliens or "absconders" are loose on the streets of America, according to a report issued yesterday by the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Inspector General -- up from 331,000 after the September 11 attacks and 418,000 in 2003.
Despite the deployment by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) of 50 Fugitive Operations Teams nationwide with the "immediate mission" to eliminate the growing backlog of fugitive aliens -- those ordered deported but who have disappeared -- it has increased annually since the program's February 2002 inception.
"The fugitive alien population is growing at a rate that exceeds the teams' ability to apprehend," said Inspector General Richard L. Skinner, noting the teams' inability "to keep pace with the increase in the backlog of fugitive aliens, not to mention reduce it."
Mr. Skinner said the backlog of fugitive aliens increased an average of 51,228 each year over a four-year period ending September 2005, and that from October 2005 to August 2006, the number jumped by 86,648.
The 68-page report said the effectiveness of fugitive teams was hampered by insufficient detention capacity, limitations of an immigration database and inadequate working space.
It also found that the teams were called on to perform duties unrelated to fugitive operations, contrary to ICE policy. Those duties included serving as firearms instructors, juvenile coordinators, jail inspectors, escorting aliens to their country of origin or from local jails to an ICE facility, taking bonds, escorting special-interest aliens to court appearances, and managing the detained and non-detained dockets.
"While team members are performing non-fugitive operations duties, they are unable to identify, locate or apprehend fugitives," Mr. Skinner said.
He said that as of March 2006, there were 11.5 million to 12 million illegal aliens living in the United States and that by August 2006, ICE estimated a backlog of 623,292 fugitive aliens. He said fugitive aliens made up 5.4 percent of the illegal-alien population.
Mr. Skinner also noted that weekly field office reports sent to ICE headquarters did not always reflect accurately what the fugitive teams had done, adding that they sometimes included apprehensions made by other law-enforcement agencies or cases closed because of an alien's death, voluntary departure from the country or change to legal status.
John P. Torres, director of the ICE Office of Detention and Removal Operations (DRO), said that while the agency agreed with many of the recommendations in the report and had implemented several, Mr. Skinner's office had failed to take into account "many of the positive steps already independently taken by DRO to address" problems within the agency.
The mission of the fugitive teams is to identify, locate, apprehend, process and remove fugitive aliens from the country with the highest priority being those who have been convicted of crimes, including killers, rapists, drug dealers and child molesters.
Coordinated through an ICE initiative known as the National Fugitive Operations Program, the teams translate to about 500 agents looking for more than 623,000 alien fugitives hiding in cities from Seattle and Los Angeles to Miami and Washington


Are these the honest hard working people we continue hear about ??
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 08:52 am
Quote:

He said fugitive aliens made up 5.4 percent of the illegal-alien population.


The honest hard-working part would be in the 94.6%.

We all agree that having a large number of people being forced to live in the shadows is a bad thing.

This is why a path to citizenship, which would let the honest hard-working 94.6% of immigrants come out of the shadows, be background checked and then live a normal life with proper ID is such a good idea.

If only the 5.4% of people who commit serious (i.e. violent) crimes are living in the shadows, it will be much easier to find them.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 08:58 am
Honest? How honest can you be by being here illegally?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 09:00 am
Brown
Brown that is over a half a million fugitives!!! If the immigration laws were enforced they would not be in the US. However, as I suspected your cure as always is to make them all legal.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 09:12 am
au1929 wrote:
Brown
Brown that is over a half a million fugitives!!! If the immigration laws were enforced they would not be in the US. However, as I suspected your cure as always is to make them all legal.


Bull. We are enforcing drug laws (as seen by the fact the incarceration rate in the US is the highest in the developed world).

There are still plenty of drug fugitives...
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 09:27 am
Brown,
We have enough home grown criminals. We have no need to import and support those from other countries.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 02:16 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
If only the 5.4% of people who commit serious (i.e. violent) crimes are living in the shadows, it will be much easier to find them.
Idea Further, were that the case, your efforts wouldn't suffer from sympathetic citizens (like myself) who wouldn't turn a man in for having a 1 in 20 chance of being a criminal. By removing the barrier to legality, you eliminate the hiding places as well. The vast majority of people who'll turn the blind eye to immigration violators would not intentionally do so for criminals. The vast majority of Citizens (whether they are bigots or not) believe in Law enforcement against actual criminals.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 02:33 pm
There is a great disconnect between the reality and the presumption. In most places law enforcement isn't allowed to ask somebody if they are legal or illegal during law enforcement activity. I don't know where that 5% figure came from, but given a disproportionate number of arrests of illegals, incidents of drunk driving, illegal gang activity, drug trafficking plus violent crimes such as rape, assault, battery, armed robbery, murder, etc., a disproportionate number of illegals in this area are committing those crimes.

(And no, I'm not saying that MOST crime is being committed by illegals.)

But consider this:

The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave
Heather Mac Donald

Some of the most violent criminals at large today are illegal aliens. Yet in cities where the crime these aliens commit is highest, the police cannot use the most obvious tool to apprehend them: their immigration status. In Los Angeles, for example, dozens of members of a ruthless Salvadoran prison gang have sneaked back into town after having been deported for such crimes as murder, assault with a deadly weapon, and drug trafficking. Police officers know who they are and know that their mere presence in the country is a felony. Yet should a cop arrest an illegal gangbanger for felonious reentry, it is he who will be treated as a criminal, for violating the LAPD's rule against enforcing immigration law.

The LAPD's ban on immigration enforcement mirrors bans in immigrant-saturated cities around the country, from New York and Chicago to San Diego, Austin, and Houston. These "sanctuary policies" generally prohibit city employees, including the cops, from reporting immigration violations to federal authorities.

Such laws testify to the sheer political power of immigrant lobbies, a power so irresistible that police officials shrink from even mentioning the illegal-alien crime wave. "We can't even talk about it," says a frustrated LAPD captain. "People are afraid of a backlash from Hispanics." Another LAPD commander in a predominantly Hispanic, gang-infested district sighs: "I would get a firestorm of criticism if I talked about [enforcing the immigration law against illegals]." Neither captain would speak for attribution.

But however pernicious in themselves, sanctuary rules are a symptom of a much broader disease: the nation's near-total loss of control over immigration policy. Fifty years ago, immigration policy might have driven immigration numbers, but today the numbers drive policy. The nonstop increase of immigration is reshaping the language and the law to dissolve any distinction between legal and illegal aliens and, ultimately, the very idea of national borders.

It is a measure of how topsy-turvy the immigration environment has become that to ask police officials about the illegal-alien crime problem feels like a gross faux pas, not done in polite company. And a police official asked to violate this powerful taboo will give a strangled response?-or, as in the case of a New York deputy commissioner, break off communication altogether. Meanwhile, millions of illegal aliens work, shop, travel, and commit crimes in plain view, utterly secure in their de facto immunity from the immigration law.

I asked the Miami Police Department's spokesman, Detective Delrish Moss, about his employer's policy on lawbreaking illegals. In September, the force arrested a Honduran visa violator for seven vicious rapes. The previous year, Miami cops had had the suspect in custody for lewd and lascivious molestation, without checking his immigration status. Had they done so, they would have discovered his visa overstay, a deportable offense, and so could have forestalled the rapes. "We have shied away from unnecessary involvement dealing with immigration issues," explains Moss, choosing his words carefully, "because of our large immigrant population."

Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil' Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.'s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

Good luck finding any reference to such facts in official crime analysis. The LAPD and the L.A. city attorney recently requested an injunction against drug trafficking in Hollywood, targeting the 18th Street Gang and the "non-gang members" who sell drugs in Hollywood for the gang. Those non-gang members are virtually all illegal Mexicans, smuggled into the country by a ring organized by 18th Street bigs. The Mexicans pay off their transportation debts to the gang by selling drugs; many soon realize how lucrative that line of work is and stay in the business.

Cops and prosecutors universally know the immigration status of these non-gang "Hollywood dealers," as the city attorney calls them, but the gang injunction is assiduously silent on the matter. And if a Hollywood officer were to arrest an illegal dealer (known on the street as a "border brother") for his immigration status, or even notify the Immigration and Naturalization Service (since early 2003, absorbed into the new Department of Homeland Security), he would face severe discipline for violating Special Order 40, the city's sanctuary policy.

The ordinarily tough-as-nails former LAPD chief Daryl Gates enacted Special Order 40 in 1979?-showing that even the most unapologetic law-and-order cop is no match for immigration advocates. The order prohibits officers from "initiating police action where the objective is to discover the alien status of a person"?-in other words, the police may not even ask someone they have arrested about his immigration status until after they have filed criminal charges, nor may they arrest someone for immigration violations. They may not notify immigration authorities about an illegal alien picked up for minor violations. Only if they have already booked an illegal alien for a felony or for multiple misdemeanors may they inquire into his status or report him. The bottom line: a cordon sanitaire between local law enforcement and immigration authorities that creates a safe haven for illegal criminals.

L.A.'s sanctuary law and all others like it contradict a key 1990s policing discovery: the Great Chain of Being in criminal behavior. Pick up a law-violator for a "minor" crime, and you might well prevent a major crime: enforcing graffiti and turnstile-jumping laws nabs you murderers and robbers. Enforcing known immigration violations, such as reentry following deportation, against known felons, would be even more productive. LAPD officers recognize illegal deported gang members all the time?-flashing gang signs at court hearings for rival gangbangers, hanging out on the corner, or casing a target. These illegal returnees are, simply by being in the country after deportation, committing a felony (in contrast to garden-variety illegals on their first trip to the U.S., say, who are only committing a misdemeanor). "But if I see a deportee from the Mara Salvatrucha [Salvadoran prison] gang crossing the street, I know I can't touch him," laments a Los Angeles gang officer. Only if the deported felon has given the officer some other reason to stop him, such as an observed narcotics sale, can the cop accost him?-but not for the immigration felony.

Though such a policy puts the community at risk, the department's top brass brush off such concerns. No big deal if you see deported gangbangers back on the streets, they say. Just put them under surveillance for "real" crimes and arrest them for those. But surveillance is very manpower-intensive. Where there is an immediate ground for getting a violent felon off the street and for questioning him further, it is absurd to demand that the woefully understaffed LAPD ignore it.

The stated reasons for sanctuary policies are that they encourage illegal-alien crime victims and witnesses to cooperate with cops without fear of deportation, and that they encourage illegals to take advantage of city services like health care and education (to whose maintenance few illegals have contributed a single tax dollar, of course). There has never been any empirical verification that sanctuary laws actually accomplish these goals?-and no one has ever suggested not enforcing drug laws, say, for fear of intimidating drug-using crime victims. But in any case, this official rationale could be honored by limiting police use of immigration laws to some subset of immigration violators: deported felons, say, or repeat criminal offenders whose immigration status police already know.

The real reason cities prohibit their cops and other employees from immigration reporting and enforcement is, like nearly everything else in immigration policy, the numbers. The immigrant population has grown so large that public officials are terrified of alienating it, even at the expense of ignoring the law and tolerating violence. In 1996, a breathtaking Los Angeles Times exposé on the 18th Street Gang, which included descriptions of innocent bystanders being murdered by laughing cholos (gang members), revealed the rate of illegal-alien membership in the gang. In response to the public outcry, the Los Angeles City Council ordered the police to reexamine Special Order 40. You would have thought it had suggested reconsidering Roe v. Wade. A police commander warned the council: "This is going to open a significant, heated debate." City Councilwoman Laura Chick put on a brave front: "We mustn't be afraid," she declared firmly.

But of course immigrant pandering trumped public safety. Law-abiding residents of gang-infested neighborhoods may live in terror of the tattooed gangbangers dealing drugs, spraying graffiti, and shooting up rivals outside their homes, but such anxiety can never equal a politician's fear of offending Hispanics. At the start of the reexamination process, LAPD deputy chief John White had argued that allowing the department to work closely with the INS would give cops another tool for getting gang members off the streets. Trying to build a homicide case, say, against an illegal gang member is often futile, he explained, since witnesses fear deadly retaliation if they cooperate with the police. Enforcing an immigration violation would allow the cops to lock up the murderer right now, without putting a witness's life at risk.

But six months later, Deputy Chief White had changed his tune: "Any broadening of the policy gets us into the immigration business," he asserted. "It's a federal law-enforcement issue, not a local law-enforcement issue." Interim police chief Bayan Lewis told the L.A. Police Commission: "It is not the time. It is not the day to look at Special Order 40."

Nor will it ever be, as long as immigration numbers continue to grow. After their brief moment of truth in 1996, Los Angeles politicians have only grown more adamant in defense of Special Order 40. After learning that cops in the scandal-plagued Rampart Division had cooperated with the INS to try to uproot murderous gang members from the community, local politicians threw a fit, criticizing district commanders for even allowing INS agents into their station houses. In turn, the LAPD strictly disciplined the offending officers. By now, big-city police chiefs are unfortunately just as determined to defend sanctuary policies as the politicians who appoint them; not so the rank and file, however, who see daily the benefit that an immigration tool would bring.

Immigration politics have similarly harmed New York. Former mayor Rudolph Giuliani sued all the way up to the Supreme Court to defend the city's sanctuary policy against a 1996 federal law decreeing that cities could not prohibit their employees from cooperating with the INS. Oh yeah? said Giuliani; just watch me. The INS, he claimed, with what turned out to be grotesque irony, only aims to "terrorize people." Though he lost in court, he remained defiant to the end. On September 5, 2001, his handpicked charter-revision committee ruled that New York could still require that its employees keep immigration information confidential to preserve trust between immigrants and government. Six days later, several visa-overstayers participated in the most devastating attack on the city and the country in history.

New York conveniently forgot the 1996 federal ban on sanctuary laws until a gang of five Mexicans?-four of them illegal?-abducted and brutally raped a 42-year-old mother of two near some railroad tracks in Queens. The NYPD had already arrested three of the illegal aliens numerous times for such crimes as assault, attempted robbery, criminal trespass, illegal gun possession, and drug offenses. The department had never notified the INS.

Citizen outrage forced Mayor Michael Bloomberg to revisit the city's sanctuary decree yet again. In May 2003, Bloomberg tweaked the policy minimally to allow city staffers to inquire into immigration status only if it is relevant to the awarding of a government benefit. Though Bloomberg's new rule said nothing about reporting immigration violations to federal officials, advocates immediately claimed that it did allow such reporting, and the ethnic lobbies went ballistic. "What we're seeing is the erosion of people's rights," thundered Angelo Falcon of the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund. After three months of intense agitation by immigrant groups, Bloomberg replaced this innocuous "don't ask" policy with a "don't tell" rule even broader than Gotham's original sanctuary policy. The new rule prohibits city employees from giving other government officials information not just about immigration status but about tax payments, sexual orientation, welfare status, and other matters.

But even were immigrant-saturated cities to discard their sanctuary policies and start enforcing immigration violations where public safety demands it, the resource-starved immigration authorities couldn't handle the overwhelming additional workload.

The chronic shortage of manpower to oversee, and detention space to house, aliens as they await their deportation hearings (or, following an order of removal from a federal judge, their actual deportation) has forced immigration officials to practice a constant triage. Long ago, the feds stopped trying to find and deport aliens who had "merely" entered the country illegally through stealth or fraudulent documents. Currently, the only types of illegal aliens who run any risk of catching federal attention are those who have been convicted of an "aggravated felony" (a particularly egregious crime) or who have been deported following conviction for an aggravated felony and who have reentered (an offense punishable with 20 years in jail).

That triage has been going on for a long time, as former INS investigator Mike Cutler, who worked with the NYPD catching Brooklyn drug dealers in the 1970s, explains. "If you arrested someone you wanted to detain, you'd go to your boss and start a bidding war," Cutler recalls. "You'd say: 'My guy ran three blocks, threw a couple of punches, and had six pieces of ID.' The boss would turn to another agent: 'Next! Whaddid your guy do?' 'He ran 18 blocks, pushed over an old lady, and had a gun.' " But such one-upmanship was usually fruitless. "Without the jail space," explains Cutler, "it was like the Fish and Wildlife Service; you'd tag their ear and let them go."

But even when immigration officials actually arrest someone, and even if a judge issues a final deportation order (usually after years of litigation and appeals), they rarely have the manpower to put the alien on a bus or plane and take him across the border. Second alternative: detain him pending removal. Again, inadequate space and staff. In the early 1990s, for example, 15 INS officers were in charge of the deportation of approximately 85,000 aliens (not all of them criminals) in New York City. The agency's actual response to final orders of removal was what is known as a "run letter"?-a notice asking the deportable alien kindly to show up in a month or two to be deported, when the agency might be able to process him. Results: in 2001, 87 percent of deportable aliens who received run letters disappeared, a number that was even higher?-94 percent?-if they were from terror-sponsoring countries.

To other law-enforcement agencies, the feds' triage often looks like complete indifference to immigration violations. Testifying to Congress about the Queens rape by illegal Mexicans, New York's criminal justice coordinator defended the city's failure to notify the INS after the rapists' previous arrests on the ground that the agency wouldn't have responded anyway. "We have time and time again been unable to reach INS on the phone," John Feinblatt said last February. "When we reach them on the phone, they require that we write a letter. When we write a letter, they require that it be by a superior."

Criminal aliens also interpret the triage as indifference. John Mullaly a former NYPD homicide detective, estimates that 70 percent of the drug dealers and other criminals in Manhattan's Washington Heights were illegal. Were Mullaly to threaten an illegal-alien thug in custody that his next stop would be El Salvador unless he cooperated, the criminal would just laugh, knowing that the INS would never show up. The message could not be clearer: this is a culture that can't enforce its most basic law of entry. If policing's broken-windows theory is correct, the failure to enforce one set of rules breeds overall contempt for the law.

The sheer number of criminal aliens overwhelmed an innovative program that would allow immigration officials to complete deportation hearings while a criminal was still in state or federal prison, so that upon his release he could be immediately ejected without taking up precious INS detention space. But the process, begun in 1988, immediately bogged down due to the numbers?-in 2000, for example, nearly 30 percent of federal prisoners were foreign-born. The agency couldn't find enough pro bono attorneys to represent such an army of criminal aliens (who have extensive due-process rights in contesting deportation) and so would have to request delay after delay. Or enough immigration judges would not be available. In 1997, the INS simply had no record of a whopping 36 percent of foreign-born inmates who had been released from federal and four state prisons without any review of their deportability. They included 1,198 aggravated felons, 80 of whom were soon re-arrested for new crimes.

Resource starvation is not the only reason for federal inaction. The INS was a creature of immigration politics, and INS district directors came under great pressure from local politicians to divert scarce resources into distribution of such "benefits" as permanent residency, citizenship, and work permits, and away from criminal or other investigations. In the late 1980s, for example, the INS refused to join an FBI task force against Haitian drug trafficking in Miami, fearing criticism for "Haitian-bashing." In 1997, after Hispanic activists protested a much-publicized raid that netted nearly two dozen illegals, the Border Patrol said that it would no longer join Simi Valley, California, probation officers on home searches of illegal-alien-dominated gangs.

The disastrous Citizenship USA project of 1996 was a luminous case of politics driving the INS to sacrifice enforcement to "benefits." When, in the early 1990s, the prospect of welfare reform drove immigrants to apply for citizenship in record numbers to preserve their welfare eligibility, the Clinton administration, seeing a political bonanza in hundreds of thousands of new welfare-dependent citizens, ordered the naturalization process radically expedited. Thanks to relentless administration pressure, processing errors in 1996 were 99 percent in New York and 90 percent in Los Angeles, and tens of thousands of aliens with criminal records, including for murder and armed robbery, were naturalized.

Another powerful political force, the immigration bar association, has won from Congress an elaborate set of due-process rights for criminal aliens that can keep them in the country indefinitely. Federal probation officers in Brooklyn are supervising two illegals?-a Jordanian and an Egyptian with Saudi citizenship?-who look "ready to blow up the Statue of Liberty," according to a probation official, but the officers can't get rid of them. The Jordanian had been caught fencing stolen Social Security and tax-refund checks; now he sells phone cards, which he uses himself to make untraceable calls. The Saudi's offense: using a fraudulent Social Security number to get employment?-a puzzlingly unnecessary scam, since he receives large sums from the Middle East, including from millionaire relatives. But intelligence links him to terrorism, so presumably he worked in order not to draw attention to himself. Currently, he changes his cell phone every month. Ordinarily such a minor offense would not be prosecuted, but the government, fearing that he had terrorist intentions, used whatever it had to put him in prison.

Now, probation officers desperately want to see the duo out of the country, but the two ex-cons have hired lawyers, who are relentlessly fighting their deportation. "Due process allows you to stay for years without an adjudication," says a probation officer in frustration. "A regular immigration attorney can keep you in the country for three years, a high-priced one for ten." In the meantime, Brooklyn probation officials are watching the bridges.

Even where immigration officials successfully nab and deport criminal aliens, the reality, says a former federal gang prosecutor, is that "they all come back. They can't make it in Mexico." The tens of thousands of illegal farmworkers and dishwashers who overpower U.S. border controls every year carry in their wake thousands of brutal assailants and terrorists who use the same smuggling industry and who benefit from the same irresistible odds: there are so many more of them than the Border Patrol.

For, of course, the government's inability to keep out criminal aliens is part and parcel of its inability to patrol the border, period. For decades, the INS had as much effect on the migration of millions of illegals as a can tied to the tail of a tiger. And the immigrants themselves, despite the press cliché of hapless aliens living fearfully in the shadows, seemed to regard immigration authorities with all the concern of an elephant for a flea.

Certainly fear of immigration officers is not in evidence among the hundreds of illegal day laborers who hang out on Roosevelt Avenue in Queens, New York, in front of money wire services, travel agencies, immigration-attorney offices, and phone arcades, all catering to the local Hispanic population (as well as to drug dealers and terrorists). "There is no chance of getting caught," cheerfully explains Rafael, an Ecuadoran. Like the dozen Ecuadorans and Mexicans on his particular corner, Rafael is hoping that an SUV seeking carpenters for $100 a day will show up soon. "We don't worry, because we're not doing anything wrong. I know it's illegal; I need the papers, but here, nobody asks you for papers."

Even the newly fortified Mexican border, the one spot where the government really tries to prevent illegal immigration, looms as only a minor inconvenience to the day laborers. The odds, they realize, are overwhelmingly in their favor. Miguel, a reserved young carpenter, crossed the border at Tijuana three years ago with 15 others. Border Patrol spotted them, but with six officers to 16 illegals, only five got caught. In illegal border crossings, you get what you pay for, Miguel says. If you try to shave on the fee, the coyotes will abandon you at the first problem. Miguel's wife was flying into New York from Los Angeles that very day; it had cost him $2,200 to get her across the border. "Because I pay, I don't worry," he says complacently.

The only way to dampen illegal immigration and its attendant train of criminals and terrorists?-short of an economic revolution in the sending countries or an impregnably militarized border?-is to remove the jobs magnet. As long as migrants know they can easily get work, they will find ways to evade border controls. But enforcing laws against illegal labor is among government's lowest priorities. In 2001, only 124 agents nationwide were trying to find and prosecute the hundreds of thousands of employers and millions of illegal aliens who violate the employment laws, the Associated Press reports.

Even were immigration officials to devote adequate resources to worksite investigations, not much would change, because their legal weapons are so weak. That's no accident: though it is a crime to hire illegal aliens, a coalition of libertarians, business lobbies, and left-wing advocates has consistently blocked the fraud-proof form of work authorization necessary to enforce that ban. Libertarians have erupted in hysteria at such proposals as a toll-free number to the Social Security Administration for employers to confirm Social Security numbers. Hispanics warn just as stridently that helping employers verify work eligibility would result in discrimination against Hispanics?-implicitly conceding that vast numbers of Hispanics work illegally.

The result: hiring practices in illegal-immigrant-saturated industries are a charade. Millions of illegal workers pretend to present valid documents, and thousands of employers pretend to believe them. The law doesn't require the employer to verify that a worker is actually qualified to work, and as long as the proffered documents are not patently phony?-scrawled with red crayon on a matchbook, say?-the employer will nearly always be exempt from liability merely by having eyeballed them. To find an employer guilty of violating the ban on hiring illegal aliens, immigration authorities must prove that he knew he was getting fake papers?-an almost insurmountable burden. Meanwhile, the market for counterfeit documents has exploded: in one month alone in 1998, immigration authorities seized nearly 2 million of them in Los Angeles, destined for immigrant workers, welfare seekers, criminals, and terrorists.

For illegal workers and employers, there is no downside to the employment charade. If immigration officials ever do try to conduct an industry-wide investigation?-which will at least net the illegal employees, if not the employers?-local congressmen will almost certainly head it off. An INS inquiry into the Vidalia-onion industry in Georgia was not only aborted by Georgia's congressional delegation; it actually resulted in a local amnesty for the growers' illegal workforce. The downside to complying with the spirit of the employment law, on the other hand, is considerable. Ethnic advocacy groups are ready to picket employers who dismiss illegal workers, and employers understandably fear being undercut by less scrupulous competitors.

Of the incalculable changes in American politics, demographics, and culture that the continuing surge of migrants is causing, one of the most profound is the breakdown of the distinction between legal and illegal entry. Everywhere, illegal aliens receive free public education and free medical care at taxpayer expense; 13 states offer them driver's licenses. States everywhere have been pushed to grant illegal aliens college scholarships and reduced in-state tuition. One hundred banks, over 800 law-enforcement agencies, and dozens of cities accept an identification card created by Mexico to credentialize illegal Mexican aliens in the U.S. The Bush administration has given its blessing to this matricula consular card, over the strong protest of the FBI, which warns that the gaping security loopholes that the card creates make it a boon to money launderers, immigrant smugglers, and terrorists. Border authorities have already caught an Iranian man sneaking across the border this year, Mexican matricula card in hand.

Hispanic advocates have helped blur the distinction between a legal and an illegal resident by asserting that differentiating the two is an act of irrational bigotry. Arrests of illegal aliens inside the border now inevitably spark protests, often led by the Mexican government, that feature signs calling for "no más racismo." Immigrant advocates use the language of "human rights" to appeal to an authority higher than such trivia as citizenship laws. They attack the term "amnesty" for implicitly acknowledging the validity of borders. Indeed, grouses Illinois congressman Luis Gutierrez, "There's an implication that somehow you did something wrong and you need to be forgiven."

Illegal aliens and their advocates speak loudly about what they think the U.S. owes them, not vice versa. "I believe they have a right . . . to work, to drive their kids to school," said California assemblywoman Sarah Reyes. An immigration agent says that people he stops "get in your face about their rights, because our failure to enforce the law emboldens them." Taking this idea to its extreme, Joaquín Avila, a UCLA Chicano studies professor and law lecturer, argues that to deny non-citizens the vote, especially in the many California cities where they constitute the majority, is a form of apartheid.

Yet no poll has ever shown that Americans want more open borders. Quite the reverse. By a huge majority?-at least 60 percent?-they want to rein in immigration, and they endorse an observation that Senator Alan Simpson made 20 years ago: Americans "are fed up with efforts to make them feel that [they] do not have that fundamental right of any people?-to decide who will join them and help form the future country in which they and their posterity will live." But if the elites' and the advocates' idea of giving voting rights to non-citizen majorities catches on?-and don't be surprised if it does?-Americans could be faced with the ultimate absurdity of people outside the social compact making rules for those inside it.

However the nation ultimately decides to rationalize its chaotic and incoherent immigration system, surely all can agree that, at a minimum, authorities should expel illegal-alien criminals swiftly. Even on the grounds of protecting non-criminal illegal immigrants, we should start by junking sanctuary policies. By stripping cops of what may be their only immediate tool to remove felons from the community, these policies leave law-abiding immigrants prey to crime.

But the non-enforcement of immigration laws in general has an even more destructive effect. In many immigrant communities, assimilation into gangs seems to be outstripping assimilation into civic culture. Toddlers are learning to flash gang signals and hate the police, reports the Los Angeles Times. In New York City, "every high school has its Mexican gang," and most 12- to 14-year-olds have already joined, claims Ernesto Vega, an illegal 18-year-old Mexican. Such pathologies only worsen when the first lesson that immigrants learn about U.S. law is that Americans don't bother to enforce it. "Institutionalizing illegal immigration creates a mindset in people that anything goes in the U.S.," observes Patrick Ortega, the news and public-affairs director of Radio Nueva Vida in southern California. "It creates a new subculture, with a sequela of social ills." It is broken windows writ large.

For the sake of immigrants and native-born Americans alike, it's time to decide what our immigration policy is?-and enforce it.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 02:51 pm
Quote:

but given a disproportionate number of arrests of illegals, incidents of drunk driving, illegal gang activity, drug trafficking plus violent crimes such as rape, assault, battery, armed robbery, murder, etc., a disproportionate number of illegals in this area are committing those crimes.


I believe this is a lie. And, for the record Foxfyre, I am accusing you of repeating a lie not of telling one. But, you have been known to repeat exagerrated "facts" with no credible sources that were shown to be untrue.

I also believe that one of the primary tactics of racists is to try to paint a correlation between their target group, and crime. Many times they use shoddy logic and blown up, or fabricated facts.

I am not accusing you of being a racist. I am simply pointing out that the same things you are saying, are being said by clearly racist groups.

But the real issue here is that the point you are making is completely unsupported by facts...

Boston Globe wrote:

It may be surprising, then, to find agreement among several leading criminologists that immigration does not cause crime-and may even reduce it. None of them would argue that immigration is the most important factor everywhere, especially since the recent rise in Boston's murder rate comes as its foreign-born population continues to grow. But the increased flow of immigrants to major American cities nationwide, argues Robert J. Sampson, a Harvard sociologist and lead author of a major recent study on the topic, ''has been one of the more plausible explanations that we've seen for the decrease in the violence rate."


Link

If you stick to fact on your side... that illegal immigration is illegal, you have an OK, not great but OK, argument.

The fact that you continue to feel the need to add clearly false, inflammatory rhetoric, based on one-sided rhetoric that in many cases has been shown to be wildly incorrect is telling.

The connection you are trying to make between illegal immigrants, and increased crime is factually wrong and as it is defamatory toward real people and enforces stereotypes, it is morally wrong.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 02:57 pm
You're entitled to your opinion eBrown and I'm entitled to mine. I think your assertion that there is no disproportionate level of criminality among illegals in this country is also repeating a lie.

If 5% of the population is committing criminal acts, that's 15 MILLION criminals operating in this country. Among those in rural Illinois or Iowa or Arkansas, the proportion of criminals to the general population is probably considerably less than 5%. But is one criminal for every 100 people acceptable? Are you honestly comfortable with that?

Heather MacDonald brings some pretty significant credentials to the debate and she says the situation is far worse among the illegals in LA County. Are you saying she is repeating a lie? On what basis do you draw that conclusion?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 03:08 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
There is a great disconnect between the reality and the presumption. In most places law enforcement isn't allowed to ask somebody if they are legal or illegal during law enforcement activity.


You mean they can't ask for legal papers?

Here, every single policemen can do that (though e.g. searching for illegal workers is done by the customs and/or labour office): you are asked for that and either present your papers or get that cleared at the police station.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 03:11 pm
Quote:

t should not surprise anyone to learn that immigrants – both undocumented and otherwise – commit some violent crimes. Even the most jingoistic champion of American values would concede that criminal elements are found in every demographic group.

The real question is whether immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than U.S. citizens. That’s the assertion advanced by U.S. Rep. Ted Poe and others, and it’s the perfect falsehood around which to build an agenda for stiffer immigration policies. But despite the profound fear that many people have of “foreigners,” statistics show that “natives” are more dangerous as a group.

The 2000 U.S. Census data of incarcerated males confirm that foreign-born people commit far fewer crimes per capita than U.S. citizens of every race and ethnicity. All told, U.S.-born people commit crimes at a rate that is approximately four times that of their foreign-born counterparts.

...

One fact is certain: there is a growing chorus of people determined to protect “us” from “them.” Before we yield to those who want to paint immigrants as evil interlopers threatening the American way of live, we should stop to consider a truer picture: “they” are actually much less dangerous than “us.”


link
0 Replies
 
 

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