What should be done about illegal immigration?

In the United States, Walter, you can be required to carry identification--the statutes vary from state to state. In most states, you can't be detained just because you can't present identification, since having it in your possession can mean that you keep it in a safe place at home. If you are stopped by the police for any other reason, you could be detained, but not necessarily simply for failing to produce identification.

Quite apart from that, it has long been very simple, if not cheap, to obtain illegal identification. If you are asked for identification, and you present a forged driver's license, you may get away with it. However, many states now have very sophisticated driver's licenses (the most common form of identification), with magnetic data strips which the officer could run through a card reader in the cruiser in the attempt to find out if it is legitimate. This won't even become an issue for most people, illegal immigrants or not, unless they are stopped by the police for a valid reason in the first place. No one goes around asking people for their "papers."

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Isn't Heather MacDonals the one who wrote a book, claiming that racial profiling by law enforcement simply doesn't exist?

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Many Americans, including liberals like myself and a fair number of conservatives (that is real conservatives) find the prospect of being asked for their papers to be quite disturbing.

The only time this really happens in the US (at least the only time I have heard of) is for traffic stops.

There has been a serious backlash against the RealID act (which mandates that magnetic strip on drivers licenses) from both the liberal and conservative sides.

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Thanks, Set.

Yes, I've seen some driver licences: those from New Mexico e.g. carry more data on it than any data protection office would allow here.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Isn't Heather MacDonals the one who wrote a book, claiming that racial profiling by law enforcement simply doesn't exist?

That would be funny.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Many Americans, including liberals like myself and a fair number of conservatives (that is real conservatives) find the prospect of being asked for their papers to be quite disturbing.

Well, we do have a different tradition .... since some centuries already.

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ebrown_p wrote:

That would be funny.

Quoted from an Amazon review:

Quote:

In instances where the police were clearly in the wrong--most notably the much-publicized and tragic Amadou Diallo shooting--Mac Donald posits that these are isolated cases of poor judgment and failure to follow procedure rather than evidence of systemic racism.

Mac Donald looks closely at the misleading statistics that have been used to back up such practices as tabulating the race of drivers pulled over by the police. Mac Donald punches so many holes in the statistics that it's difficult not to concur with her. She further attacks the "collective fairy tale that all groups commit drug crimes at equal rates," arguing that the police are simply going to where the crime is, not willfully picking on one group while ignoring others.

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Blacks and Illegals. hmmmm...

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Hi everybody... Im new to this site and I saw this thread was a couple hundred pages long so I hope this hasnt been brought up before..

But I think America could solve the entire immigration 'problem' by returning to its roots... We should let anybody come into America who wants to and not restrict anybody... But I have one condition. NO Enttitlements. No Freebies.

Immigrants coming here and working hard are what made this country the power that it is, Over the years politicians it seems have resorted to giving handouts to everybody for everything under the sun. That needs to change for this to work. There are towns in America where illegals get welfare checks sent to their PO Boxes once a month.. They come up from Mexico, cash their checks and go back hom to Mexico and spend their money... This is a raping of the country to me. No more handouts and youll see all the freeloaders stay home and only the ambitious people who want to make something of themselves will be coming to America, anbd they will be contributing instead of mooching...

Let me know what you think./

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ebrown_p wrote:

Quote:

t should not surprise anyone to learn that immigrants - both undocumented and otherwise - commit some violent crimes. Even the most jingoistic champion of American values would concede that criminal elements are found in every demographic group.

The real question is whether immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than U.S. citizens. That's the assertion advanced by U.S. Rep. Ted Poe and others, and it's the perfect falsehood around which to build an agenda for stiffer immigration policies. But despite the profound fear that many people have of "foreigners," statistics show that "natives" are more dangerous as a group.

The 2000 U.S. Census data of incarcerated males confirm that foreign-born people commit far fewer crimes per capita than U.S. citizens of every race and ethnicity. All told, U.S.-born people commit crimes at a rate that is approximately four times that of their foreign-born counterparts.

...

One fact is certain: there is a growing chorus of people determined to protect "us" from "them." Before we yield to those who want to paint immigrants as evil interlopers threatening the American way of live, we should stop to consider a truer picture: "they" are actually much less dangerous than "us."

link

It may not have always been the case among all immigrant groups--the Mafia membership for instance once included a large number of immigrants--but I concur with the writer of the linked piece that most foreign born people i.e. immigrants are wonderful, industrious, usually prosperous, and patriotic law abiding people were are blessed to share a country with. I don't know of any specific statistics, but I would give good odds that most legal immigrants are probably below the national average in criminal activity.

MacDonald's piece in no way addressed immigrants in general. I don't know anybody who objects to immigrants.

She was citing the reality of illegal immigrants. It is important to draw a distinction between all people, citizens or non citizens, who are here legally versus those who are here illegally.

We are not talking about immigrants. We are talking about people in the country illegally.

It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to conclude that a person willing to break U.S. laws to be here might be more willing than the average person to break other laws as well.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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I will just point out (again) that all immigrants (including those here illegally) are foreign born.

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I don't know of anybody who has suggested anything otherwise.

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Foxfyre wrote:

It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to conclude that a person willing to break U.S. laws to be here might be more willing than the average person to break other laws as well.

Certainly not: that person already begins a "criminal career' from the first moment onwards she/he is in the USA.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to conclude that a person willing to break U.S. laws to be here might be more willing than the average person to break other laws as well.

Certainly not: that person already begins a "criminal career' from the first moment onwards she/he is in the USA.

Equating one type of crime with another, or claiming that comitting one type of crime makes you any more likely to commit another type of crime is clearly illogical.

Millions of Americans cheat on their taxes, drive a car without a current registration (I have personally done this one), or put illegal religious symbols on public property. There is no reason to believe that any of these people are more likely to commit rape, or murder based on these infractions.

They are completely unrelated.

Nearly everyone (other than Foxfyre of course) commits some kind of crime. That doesn't make us muderers.

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Set's correct about everything but the cost of papers. A kit containing a Drivers License, Social Security Card and Birth Certificate, good enough for employment purposes can be had for a couple hundred dollars. I'm told documents good enough to get you past police cruisers are available for $500 to $1,000. With these documents; only a fingerprint scan will reveal you are not indeed who your papers say you are. The Drivers License is a product of the other two documents, so it is "Legal" in every way.

It wouldn't be technologically difficult to cross reference SS, DL, and BC documents or to add a digital copy of a thumb print to DL's, which would enable police to run an NCIC check (which is regularly performed before releasing prisoners in many jurisdictions) right at the cruiser. This can and may soon be accomplished with a National ID Card.

As for "percentage of criminals"; that's a pretty loose definition. 1 in 15 (6.67%) citizens of the United States will serve time in prison at some point in their life. Something like 10% of Hispanics and 18% of Blacks. If attempting to demonstrate a higher percentage of Illegal Aliens commit crimes; I have to ask higher than what? Just tossing out unreferenced statistics is as useless as those I just provided. Regardless; at the end of the day you'll end up knowing that the vast majority of Illegal Aliens, just like every other walk of life, are basically honest people who want to provide for their families and hug their grandchildren. I have no reservation about identifying arguments to the contrary as bigoted BS.

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Yaknow where many of these false docs come from?

College students who are good with computers. They make fake IDs for other kids who want to drink - no kidding. The business is mega-lucrative and eventually expands; In Austin last year they busted up a ring of 23 year old students who had sold over a thousand fake IDs, including Drivers' Licenses and passports.

Cycloptichorn

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ebrown_p wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to conclude that a person willing to break U.S. laws to be here might be more willing than the average person to break other laws as well.

Certainly not: that person already begins a "criminal career' from the first moment onwards she/he is in the USA.

Equating one type of crime with another, or claiming that comitting one type of crime makes you any more likely to commit another type of crime is clearly illogical.

Millions of Americans cheat on their taxes, drive a car without a current registration (I have personally done this one), or put illegal religious symbols on public property. There is no reason to believe that any of these people are more likely to commit rape, or murder based on these infractions.

They are completely unrelated.

Nearly everyone (other than Foxfyre of course) commits some kind of crime. That doesn't make us muderers.

Spot on. It does take a huge leap of logic to conclude that a person willing to break U.S. laws to be here might be more willing than the average person to break other laws as well. A man bending rules to provide for his family correlates to a violent crime and property crimes not at all. While some may figure they are fugitives regardless, others will consider that the consequences of arrest are infinitely harsher on account of their illegal status.

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ITs 1928 and two men are walking down the street.
One has a gold coin in his pocket the other a bottle of liquor.

Which one is the criminal?

Now, its 1933, 5 years later - same scenario

Which one is the criminal now?

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Foxfyre has done her sharing of speeding, jaywalking, wrong ways, and illegal u-turns. She has even included a deduction on her tax return that she knew was iffy. She has driven a car with expired registration (due to procrastination), expired driver's license (due to stupidity), and once changed the date on a parking ticket that earned me an unpleasant session with a judge who took a very dim view of that sort of thing.

At no time in any of these things, however, did I think I was above the law or entitled to escape the penalties required by law. Sometimes I suffered little or no consequences. Sometimes I paid the full penalty required by law. And none of these things was intended to harm anybody or take anything away from anybody or impose on anybody else's person or property.

I didn't get the drift from MacDonald's piece that she was concerned about jay walking and parking tickets. The comments I picked up on in her piece targeted illegal gang activity, rape, murder, armed robbery etc. or even far lesser crimes that do impose on other people's person or property.

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Quote:

and once changed the date on a parking ticket that earned me an unpleasant session with a judge who took a very dim view of that sort of thing.

Wow, really?

Ballsy move!

Cycloptichorn

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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