50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 08:49 am
Sorry I'm posting sporadically lately; busy.
Foxfyre wrote:
Again if you think taking away success, opportunity, and ability from some people will raise up others, you need some fresh grounding in basic economics. It is one of the worst doctrines of liberalism that some people should not be able to succeed or prosper more than others.
Laughing And therein lays the biggest misconception of all. I talk about giving opportunity to people and you interpret it as taking opportunity away from others. NONSENSE. It is you who needs to freshen up on basic economics. Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" was published in 1776, and laid the groundwork for contemporary economic thought. What he theorized, and the United States subsequently proved, is that a system based on currency rather than land is a system without a finite amount of available wealth. In such a system; giving opportunity to additional people DOES NOT take opportunity away from those who already have it.

Your suggestion that I want to take anything from you is FALSE... save unfair advantages over your fellow man. For the record, YES, I do wish to do away with the borders altogether and believe that is what we should be evolving towards. In Lincoln's day, it was a nation divided cannot long endure. IMO, at the rate deadly technology is advancing; a world divided cannot long endure... but that's a topic for another thread. Quite simply; I don't feel I have anything to fear from Mexicans or Canadians and I think Europe has a better idea than great walls of selfishness. I'd like to see a North American Union followed by a North and Central American Union followed by a Union of the Americas etc, etc, etc. At the end of the day; we're all on the same team... or should be. I see no good reason that a single currency shouldn't unite the entire world. I see no good reason that a business man in Timbuktu shouldn't have access to the same markets as one in Kalamazoo. The United States hasn't suffered an "immigration issue'. The United States has enjoyed unprecedented success do in no small part to immigration.

Yes, I believe that many of the best and brightest have immigrated here, both legally and illegally... and contentions quite to the contrary are the foundation on which I base my charge of racism (for lack of a better word). Your assumption that he who is willing to violate immigration laws is more likely to violate other laws is IMO false. A man risking his neck to get to the land of opportunity in order to better provide for himself and/or his family is no criminal in my book.

Again; until you understand that there isn't a finite amount of wealth; you will continue to erroneously fear that every piece of pie enjoyed by another is one less piece for you. This is simply NOT TRUE.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 09:24 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Sorry I'm posting sporadically lately; busy.
Foxfyre wrote:
Again if you think taking away success, opportunity, and ability from some people will raise up others, you need some fresh grounding in basic economics. It is one of the worst doctrines of liberalism that some people should not be able to succeed or prosper more than others.
Laughing And therein lays the biggest misconception of all. I talk about giving opportunity to people and you interpret it as taking opportunity away from others. NONSENSE. It is you who needs to freshen up on basic economics. Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" was published in 1776, and laid the groundwork for contemporary economic thought. What he theorized, and the United States subsequently proved, is that a system based on currency rather than land is a system without a finite amount of available wealth. In such a system; giving opportunity to additional people DOES NOT take opportunity away from those who already have it.

Your suggestion that I want to take anything from you is FALSE... save unfair advantages over your fellow man. For the record, YES, I do wish to do away with the borders altogether and believe that is what we should be evolving towards. In Lincoln's day, it was a nation divided cannot long endure. IMO, at the rate deadly technology is advancing; a world divided cannot long endure... but that's a topic for another thread. Quite simply; I don't feel I have anything to fear from Mexicans or Canadians and I think Europe has a better idea than great walls of selfishness. I'd like to see a North American Union followed by a North and Central American Union followed by a Union of the Americas etc, etc, etc. At the end of the day; we're all on the same team... or should be. I see no good reason that a single currency shouldn't unite the entire world. I see no good reason that a business man in Timbuktu shouldn't have access to the same markets as one in Kalamazoo. The United States hasn't suffered an "immigration issue'. The United States has enjoyed unprecedented success do in no small part to immigration.

Yes, I believe that many of the best and brightest have immigrated here, both legally and illegally... and contentions quite to the contrary are the foundation on which I base my charge of racism (for lack of a better word). Your assumption that he who is willing to violate immigration laws is more likely to violate other laws is IMO false. A man risking his neck to get to the land of opportunity in order to better provide for himself and/or his family is no criminal in my book.

Again; until you understand that there isn't a finite amount of wealth; you will continue to erroneously fear that every piece of pie enjoyed by another is one less piece for you. This is simply NOT TRUE.


I have never said nor suggested that there is a 'finite amount of weath'. That is not something I would even make a mistake saying.

But when you say
Quote:
Perhaps somebody smarter than me (like Thomas) could explain the dynamics of currency in a way that would put the idiotic notion that you have to deny another man opportunity to maintain your own. Short term hits on some people would result in a net gain for more people. This, is the American way. This is nature'


and this is accompanied by a rather length screed accusing those of us who didn't agree with with the necessity for that as racist and/or selfish, what else would one think other than we are racist and selfish in an unwillingness to 'take a hit'?

Admittedly some of the rest of the same screed qualified this remark with your rather patronizing lecture on people being unwilling to share or holding faulty notions that making room for others would take away from the rest. You, like ebrown, absolutely ignored however the pro-border-control people's willingness to make plenty of room for others and wanting to improve current immigrates rules and regs to make it easier for them to get here. We simply insist on it being done legally and in a way that will produce the most positive benefits for all.

You called us selfish and racist for holding this point of view and for wanting to enforce our borders and let the law decide who will and will not be allowed into this country.

And you still owe us an apology for that.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 09:27 am
Virtually every country claims the right to control who comes in, when, and under what circumstances. Laws should either be enforced or removed from the books, and I do not believe that the immigration laws should be repealed. Bad behavior and disrespect for a country's laws should never be rewarded. Immigrants of every race, creed and country of origin are welcome, but I want all of the illegals, except a few real hardship cases, to get out of my country.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 09:33 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
Virtually every country claims the right to control who comes in, when, and under what circumstances. Laws should either be enforced or removed from the books, and I do not believe that the immigration laws should be repealed. Bad behavior and disrespect for a country's laws should never be rewarded. Immigrants of every race, creed and country of origin are welcome, but I want all of the illegals, except a few real hardship cases, to get out of my country.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 10:28 am
It appears that John McCain is flipflopping on another issue and this time it is immigration. At least, if the NY Times can be trusted to be reporting this accurately and that is a big IF, he is flipflopping to a more realistic position this time.

Quote:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 10:40 am
McCain, described by Laurence Kudlow in the Washington Times (14.03.07, comment, page 14) as:
Quote:
Sen. John McCain, who has been married twice. He is disliked by many social conservatives more for his support of "campaign finance reform," which they regard as an attempt to limit their speech, his work on immigration with Ted Kennedy and past remarks that some evangelical leaders are "agents of intolerance."




From today's Washington Times:

http://i13.tinypic.com/29c718h.jpg
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:23 am
Did ebp draw that?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:26 am
cjhsa wrote:
Did ebp draw that?


Besides that I have serious doubts that he reads the Washington Times or even works for it - if this

http://i11.tinypic.com/449440y.jpg

is his real name, you might be right.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:53 am
Well, I'd be right to say your silliness is showing by comparning a nomadic society with no concept of land ownership to the most powerful modern country in the world trying to protect its borders.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 12:29 pm
cjhsa wrote:
Well, I'd be right to say your silliness is showing by comparning a nomadic society with no concept of land ownership to the most powerful modern country in the world trying to protect its borders.


Thanks for the complement, cjhsa.

Apropos silliness: I did compare nothing but posted - as said and quoted - a carricature from today's Washington Times.

http://i9.tinypic.com/2vigsn6.jpg
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 06:31 am
I appreciate the clear arguments of O'Bill, but this latest discussion puts me in an awkward position. In the latest discussion between O'Bill and Foxfyre between open immigration, and strict control of the borders, I come down in the middle. I am not used to being the moderate.

My primary issue with immigration is compassion. I want the immigrants who are here now to be treated with understanding and compassion, and I want their value as human beings, and their contribution to our economy and communites recognized.

If their crime of crossing a border or overstaying a visa must be punished... it should be a reasonable punishment that doesn't break familes and uproot lives. It should certainly not be a worse punishment than the Americans who benefit from their being here... including family farmers and small businessmen who depend on them.

I don't know what the answer is as far as national borders. For me, people are more important. If you can find an immigration policy that is compassionate, and upholds whatever your view of nation sovreignty is, you will have my support.

But for me, compassion, not causing further hardship to people who weren't born into the position of priveledge and power that you enjoy, is the most important thing.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 06:49 am
Then build a church in Tijuana and preach to them - beg them to stay in Mexico. Why not?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 08:00 am
More than a decade ago, President Clinton was turning back boatloads of people from Cuba and Haiti and elsewhere and not allowing them to approach the U.S. This was not because these people were in any way dangerous or undesirables, but because to allow them to land and become political refugees here would be to encourage untold others to attempt the dangerous journey in which many were dying in the process. Short term tough love translated into longer term compassion.

I am not unsympathetic to the illegals who are good people and already here; I don't think many people are. But to allow them to stay with impunity only encourages untold others to come and many are suffering and dying in the process. To make the only punative measures a stiff fine means that the wealthy illegals are given advantage over the poor illegals. There is no incentive for their countries of origin to clean up their acts meaning that those left behind remain in crushing poverty or worse. Where is the compassion in that? (This is not even considering the truly undesirables who are slipping in with the good people.) Short term compassion translates into much longer term suffering. And in my view, that is not compassion.

It is even more absurd to reward those who have broken our laws the longest and deport only those who have just arrived.

To put a system in place in which everybody has to go home and re-enter legally is the only practical, humane, sensible, fair, and compassionate policy available to us if we are going to retain control of who will and will not be allowed into our country.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 08:15 am
Foxfyre wrote:
It is even more absurd to reward those who have broken our laws the longest and deport only those who have just arrived.


I'm not sure about that, but is the statute of limitations generally unknown in the US Common Law and Criminal Code?

I mean, here this "absurd" fact happens indeed (besides for murder).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 08:17 am
That question was meant more generally re "longest time having broken the law" vs "just broke it".
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 08:51 am
Not sure, Walter, but so long as they are illegal every day, I believe there is a new crime every day. Again, I'm not sure of the principle here.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 09:09 am
Arm the border. Meet them there with guns drawn, not with bottles of spring water.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 09:54 am
roger wrote:
Not sure, Walter, but so long as they are illegal every day, I believe there is a new crime every day. Again, I'm not sure of the principle here.


Here, e.g. person with exceptional leave to remain for humanitarian reasons who have been here for a long(er) time are allowed to stay permanentyl while others, who arrived shortly, are send back. (They are not illegal, so.)

I'm not sure at all if they commit a new crime every day - why not every hour, minute, second? Someone driveng without driving license does it ... per miles? Per day?

The crime is the illegal immigration. And when you stay in the USA ...?


Ooops, just noticed my error when looking at my own example of driving without license Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 07:29 am
Looks like they're getting closer to what I think most Americans want in the way of legislation. I continue to object to ANYBODY being rewarded for breaking our laws, however, and think all should be required to return home before any form of legal status can be considered. I have no problem with a temporary work program that would then allow their employers to bring them right back following an expedited background check. I think the employers should be able to request specific persons they know to have the skills and work ethic etc. that they need.

Posted on Wed, Mar. 21, 2007
IMMIGRATION
Bill offers temporary legal status to undocumented immigrants
By Dave Montgomery
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON - Bipartisan legislation to be unveiled Thursday in the House of Representatives would offer temporary legal status to millions of undocumented immigrants but would require them to leave the country before they could be eligible for permanent residency and U.S. citizenship.


The bill by Reps. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., and Jeff Flake, R-Ariz., is the first major immigration legislation to be introduced in the current session of Congress, as lawmakers address the status of more than 11 million immigrants who are in the country illegally.


A comprehensive Senate immigration bill died in the previous, Republican-controlled Congress amid intense opposition from Republican members, who rebuffed President Bush's call for a sweeping overhaul of immigration laws. With Democrats in control of Congress, Bush again has made immigration a centerpiece of his domestic agenda and thinks he has a strong chance to succeed now.


The Gutierrez-Flake proposal includes many of the ingredients of the failed Senate bill. It would create a guest-worker program that would enable foreign workers to stay in the country for up to six years to hold jobs that U.S. workers have bypassed.


Bush has insisted that a guest-worker program be part of any immigration bill to give U.S. businesses a steady source of foreign workers to fill what they say is a chronic labor shortage in low-skilled and unskilled jobs. Under the Gutierrez-Flake bill, qualified foreign guest workers would get three-year visas that they could renew for another three years, then they'd be required to return home.


Flake said in an interview Wednesday that illegal immigrants who were in the country now also could be eligible to work legally here for up to six years if they paid back taxes and fines, learned English and passed criminal background checks.


If they wanted to stay in the country to be eligible for a green card - denoting permanent legal residence - and eventual citizenship, they'd be required to leave the U.S., most likely for Mexico or Canada, and register back in the United States through a port of entry.


The so-called "touch-back" provision was also in the Senate bill, in an attempt to soften objections among conservatives who oppose blanket legalization of undocumented immigrants. The Senate measure applied different standards for categories of immigrants based on their lengths of stay in the country, but that feature isn't in the Gutierrez-Flake bill.


The bill also would require the Department of Homeland Security to certify that certain steps have been taken to secure U.S. borders before the guest worker and legalization programs go into effect. Those conditions would include a sharp increase in border enforcement personnel and substantial progress on a multibillion-dollar high-tech surveillance shield that's under construction on the U.S.-Mexican border.


Tamar Jacoby, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, a research center that's pressing for an overhaul of the immigration system, said the provisions were aimed at pulling the legislation to the center of the political spectrum by attracting Republicans who might otherwise oppose a comprehensive immigration plan.


"This is a recognition that you can't pass the bill without at least 20 Republicans in the Senate and 40 Republicans in the House," she said.


White House officials have been consulted about the bill, Flake said, but haven't embraced specific legislation. Conservatives in the Senate have been meeting with top-ranking Bush administration officials in discussions that could spawn a White House-sanctioned bill. The meetings have included Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez and two senators who sponsored an alternative to the failed Senate bill: Sens. John Cornyn, R-Texas, and Jon Kyl, R-Ariz.


Bush made immigration a major component of his State of the Union address in January, calling for a "rational middle ground between a program of mass deportation and a program of automatic amnesty."
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 12:30 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
To put a system in place in which everybody has to go home and re-enter legally is the only practical, humane, sensible, fair, and compassionate policy available to us if we are going to retain control of who will and will not be allowed into our country.
Laughing Yeah... that's pure genius. I think I'm going to go wipe my A$$ and take a sh!t right after that. Next I'm going to drive to Canada on my way across town. Later today, I think I'll drop my car keys in a well, because that's a practical, sensible place to leave them until I need them again.

Walter, we do have Statutes of limitations... with more exceptions than just murder... but if they apply to Illegal Aliens; the clock still would start clicking until after the crime was committed, not during.
0 Replies
 
 

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