What should be done about illegal immigration?

au1929 wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
au1929 wrote:
Aside from the same language, they had the same history and heritage. I might add they were for the most part well educated. The same comparison can not be made with the illegals entering the US. In addition this was the reuniting of a nation not an alien invasion.

I would add your Viet Nam analogy is way off base and in no way comprable to the reuniting of Germany.
However, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Well, it has nothing to do with the subject here but shows quite a bit of ignorance, understandable for an American, though.

No if there is any ignorance it is on your side of the water. In trying compare the illegal alien situation in the US with the reuniting of a nation.

au, nobody compared the reunification with immigration (ridiculous idea).

I merely reject the notion that the reunification was effortless and came without people making essential sacrifices, which you kind of implied when you said

au1929 wrote:

If so how hard could it be assimilating Germans into Germany?

Sure, East and West Germany had a common history. But they have been separated for decades, too. Whole generations were brought up according to completely different political philosophies. East Germany was a communist country, with a communist, centralised, mismanaged economy.

The fact is that the GDR was a communist country, with a population of almost one third of Western Germany. So, compared to that, assimilating a couple millions of Latin Americans should be completely effortless.

Especially for a country with such an excellent economy as the United States, right?

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Foxfyre wrote:

How in the world can you dispute what Au said?

You might perhaps have forgotten that I lived and still live here.

Certainly you might not know that I've actively engaged in polics and history.

What I mean t with the ignorance is in the quote ... same history and heritage .... well educated ...

I really wonder if you have any idea what it meant to get "educated" from kindergarten over vocational training to either factory or (for some) university in the "Farmers and Workers Republic".

I'm sorry if au knows that. In that case I regret deeply my response .... and wonder even more how such could be concluded.

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au1929 wrote:

Aside from the same language, they had the same history and heritage. I might add they were for the most part well educated.

You clearly have no idea about this.

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ahh, that's already being tackled.

but really, marvellous example about how insular people can be.

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I like it how often I got to use the word "communist" in my previous post.

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old europe wrote:

I like it how often I got to use the word "communist" in my previous post.

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Foxfyre wrote:

There are people coming in that should not be here. These are the criminals, the sociopathic, the terrorists, those who want to overythrow America, those who want to diminish America, those who want to make America into something very different from what it is. We want immigration policies that will help us better identify and weed these people out while allowing in law abiding temporary workers and/or good people who will become good American citizens.

This is almost a verbatum reproduction of the cant of the Know Nothings of the 1870s who so opposed the irish and Italian immigrants then coming here by the tens of thousands.

Foxfyre wrote:

There are good people who have been waiting for years to enter the country legally. Some of these should have been here years ago and they would have blessed us all far sooner than has been the case. Some of these are in Mexico even. We want improved policies to expedite the process of immigration for people like this, and we object to anybody who has chosen to hurry up the process by not entering the country illegally to have any advantage on admission and/or a path to citizenship ahead of those who are doing it legally..

We have only ourselves to blame for failing to enforce overly restrictive immigration laws and for tolerating such a hidebound and inept bureaucracy in the Immigration & naturalization service. Moreover we, for decades, ignored our need for foreign workers, willing to work hard in the construction and agricultural industries at jobs our welfare recipients wouldn't take. Most Americans benefitted directly from the labor these peope provided. Indeed they still do. It is a bit late in the day now to become so exorcised at the many who follow them here. We should have established a guest worker program here decades ago.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
How in the world can you dispute what Au said?

You might perhaps have forgotten that I lived and still live here.

Certainly you might not know that I've actively engaged in polics and history.

What I mean t with the ignorance is in the quote ... same history and heritage .... well educated ...

I really wonder if you have any idea what it meant to get "educated" from kindergarten over vocational training to either factory or (for some) university in the "Farmers and Workers Republic".

I'm sorry if au knows that. In that case I regret deeply my response .... and wonder even more how such could be concluded.

I do understand what you're saying Walter, and I'm not saying at all that you're wrong. But Germany was a divided nation from 1945 to 1989 - that's 44 years, certainly not sufficient time for a people to lose all their ethnicity, all sense of history, language, values, or perspective. And the people were receiving an education even if it was grounded in Leninist Communism. And both sides did want the unification and to be one people, not a divided people.

To compare that as no different from merging people from countries that have been divided ethnically, philosophically and politically for centuries and that also do not share a language or social values or even perhaps even religion is just not reasonable. People of different cultures, language, religion, etc. etc. etc. are becoming successful American citizens all the time, and this is a good thing, but it has to be done at a pace and in numbers that can be assimilated productively into the existing culture.

I think this is what Au was saying. And he was not at all ignorant about anything when he said it.

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Foxfyre wrote:

But Germany was a divided nation from 1945 to 1989 - that's 44 years, certainly not sufficient time for a people to lose all their ethnicity, all sense of history, language, values, or perspective. And the people were receiving an education even if it was grounded in Leninist Communism. And both sides did want the unification and to be one people, not a divided people.

You must have better informations than I do.

On October 3, 1990 we re-united, btw.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
There are people coming in that should not be here. These are the criminals, the sociopathic, the terrorists, those who want to overythrow America, those who want to diminish America, those who want to make America into something very different from what it is. We want immigration policies that will help us better identify and weed these people out while allowing in law abiding temporary workers and/or good people who will become good American citizens.

This is almost a verbatum reproduction of the cant of the Know Nothings of the 1870s who so opposed the irish and Italian immigrants then coming here by the tens of thousands.

Perhaps. I'm told that I descend from some of those Irish who suffered some of the worst discrimination. Before the wedding, my father had to go to the barbershop to explain that my brother-in-law to be was not just another 'wetback' but was rather a full blood (second generation by fourteen months) Italian before he could get a haircut. I've seen the ugliest kinds of discrimination and fuzzy thinking about people up close and personal.

That was then. This is now.

It isn't people who are 'different' or who act 'different' that anybody is objecting to now. We tend to enjoy celebrating different cultures. Here in Albuquerque, each week during the summer is designated for a particular culture and is celebrated on the Civic Plaza down town. Everybody has a great time. We celebrate our strong Spanish/Mexican heritage here. Santa Fe, 50 miles up the road, requires it. We have long gotten past trying to 'keep America white' but we have developed our own unique American culture that is a blend of all the many cultures mixed into it. I honestly don't know any people personally who are 'white supremacists' or who discriminate against any racial or ethnic group these days.

It is people who are ON THE RECORD as saying they 'intend to take back THEIR country' and such as that who we object to now. Or those who boast that they will bury the infidels and all will bow down to Allah. Stuff like that. I sort of pay attention when people talk like that. Shouldn't you? And of course I don't think any of us should be required to be tolerant to the criminal element and/or terrorists who are sneaking in.

Quote:

Foxfyre wrote:
There are good people who have been waiting for years to enter the country legally. Some of these should have been here years ago and they would have blessed us all far sooner than has been the case. Some of these are in Mexico even. We want improved policies to expedite the process of immigration for people like this, and we object to anybody who has chosen to hurry up the process by not entering the country illegally to have any advantage on admission and/or a path to citizenship ahead of those who are doing it legally..

We have only ourselves to blame for failing to enforce overly restrictive immigration laws and for tolerating such a hidebound and inept bureaucracy in the Immigration & naturalization service. Moreover we, for decades, ignored our need for foreign workers, willing to work hard in the construction and agricultural industries at jobs our welfare recipients wouldn't take. Most Americans benefitted directly from the labor these peope provided. Indeed they still do. It is a bit late in the day now to become so exorcised at the many who follow them here. We should have established a guest worker program here decades ago

No argument from there there at all. But the fact that we didn't do it at all in the past or that we've done it so badly for so long is no reason not to come up with the plan and enforcable policy to do it right now.

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Quote:

It is people who are ON THE RECORD as saying they 'intend to take back THEIR country' and such as that who we object to now. Or those who boast that they will bury the infidels and all will bow down to Allah. Stuff like that. I sort of pay attention when people talk like that. Shouldn't you?

This conservative conspiracy theory. There are more Christians who want to overthrow the US government by force to set up a pure white state, than there are Latinos who want to overthrow the country.

Latino citizens are becoming politically active... they are registering to vote and standing up for their rights. They are Americans... and no less American than you are. They almost certainly appreciate their country more than Foxfyre does.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Quote:

It is people who are ON THE RECORD as saying they 'intend to take back THEIR country' and such as that who we object to now. Or those who boast that they will bury the infidels and all will bow down to Allah. Stuff like that. I sort of pay attention when people talk like that. Shouldn't you?

This conservative conspiracy theory. There are more Christians who want to overthrow the US government by force to set up a pure white state, than there are Latinos who want to overthrow the country.

Latino citizens are becoming politically active... they are registering to vote and standing up for their rights. They are Americans... and no less American than you are. They almost certainly appreciate their country more than Foxfyre does.

Don't you feel really silly when you say stuff that you can no more back up than you can prove there are little green men on Mars? Do you suppose you'll ever evolve into a person who can debate without being personally insulting or throwing out all those really stupid red herrings?

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Foxfyre wrote:

It is people who are ON THE RECORD as saying they 'intend to take back THEIR country' and such as that who we object to now. Or those who boast that they will bury the infidels and all will bow down to Allah. Stuff like that. I sort of pay attention when people talk like that. Shouldn't you?

From reading along, I kind of thought your objection involved all illegal immigrants, not just those who said they wanted to take back their country or bring down the United States...

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I should have included the Native Americans in the regular cultures that we recognize (and exploit in a good way) here though the downtown festivals include other cultures from all over the world and people who came out of or descend from those cultures go whole hog to make these truly wonderful events.

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You are repeating lies that demonize people.

I don't know if you know they are lies... it could be that you are just repeating whatever your side says without checking if they are facts, or if you are deliberately slandering.

You did this earlier when you claimed that 50% of California inmates were illegal immigrants. This, of course, turned out to be false.... an invention of the anti-illegal immigrant to demonize people.

Now you are repeating the lie that the immigrants who are trying to become Americans are really trying to take it over.

You are willing to slander people... go ahead, Foxfyre. Back it up.

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Foxfyre wrote:

It is people who are ON THE RECORD as saying they 'intend to take back THEIR country' and such as that who we object to now. Or those who boast that they will bury the infidels and all will bow down to Allah. Stuff like that. I sort of pay attention when people talk like that. Shouldn't you? And of course I don't think any of us should be required to be tolerant to the criminal element and/or terrorists who are sneaking in.

I agree with you there. It is all the soppy diversity nonsense that induces us to require multilingual government functions and the like that is the principal threat to what has been the world's most successful system for adapting people of different cultures and developing a unique synthesis of all of them.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

It is people who are ON THE RECORD as saying they 'intend to take back THEIR country' and such as that who we object to now. Or those who boast that they will bury the infidels and all will bow down to Allah. Stuff like that. I sort of pay attention when people talk like that. Shouldn't you? And of course I don't think any of us should be required to be tolerant to the criminal element and/or terrorists who are sneaking in.

I agree with you there. It is all the soppy diversity nonsense that induces us to require multilingual government functions and the like that is the principal threat to what has been the world's most successful system for adapting people of different cultures and developing a unique synthesis of all of them.

Really?

As we don't require people to speak English, shouldn't we make sure that some activities such as voting are presented in the clearest manner possible?

Avoids confusion

Cycloptichorn

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old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
It is people who are ON THE RECORD as saying they 'intend to take back THEIR country' and such as that who we object to now. Or those who boast that they will bury the infidels and all will bow down to Allah. Stuff like that. I sort of pay attention when people talk like that. Shouldn't you?

From reading along, I kind of thought your objection involved all illegal immigrants, not just those who said they wanted to take back their country or bring down the United States...

Just this once, me being such a liar and all, I'll respond to this.

I DO object to ALL illegal immigrants no matter where they are from.

I do NOT object to legal immigrants from anywhere. I do think they should obey our laws and that those seeking citizenship should want to be Americans who love and respect our country.

I DO NOT THINK CRIMINALS AND TERRORISTS SHOULD BE IMMIGRANTS ILLEGAL OR LEGAL OR BE ALLOWED INTO THIS COUNTRY FOR ANY PURPOSE.

It is because I hold these convictions that I support a practical and comprehensive immigration policy and also support rigid enforcement of that policy.

Got it?

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Quote:

people who are ON THE RECORD as saying they 'intend to take back THEIR country'

I want you to have the guts to say who you are slandering here.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Really?

As we don't require people to speak English, shouldn't we make sure that some activities such as voting are presented in the clearest manner possible?

Avoids confusion

Cycloptichorn

The side effects are worse. They destroy the practiucal incentive for assimilation.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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