50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 12:49 pm
I think that the US Department of Justice is a pretty believable source for data on incarceration rates. That lots of sites with a particular political view parrot the same erroneous statistics isn't that impressive.

I think the US Department of Justice site is definative... unless you can show me another authoritative non-partisan source that can match this.

The 10.1% number is the number of "non-citizens" of which a percentage will be legal immigrants. This means that the percentage of prisoners in California who are illegal immigrants will be part of (i.e. lower than) 10.1%.

Whether this number is high or not is a subjective number.

The fact is that the 30-40% number that conservatives are throwing around to back up their claims is clearly false.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:04 pm
Ok if you won't buy 30% and I can't support that figure, I offer 10% and clain that's a high number. When it comes to factual numbers, I'm flexible.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:20 pm
Actually, I'm really wondering why so many just think that the US Department of Justice's number of 10.1% is wrong - and nobody accuses them of doctoring this number.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:35 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
I think that the US Department of Justice is a pretty believable source for data on incarceration rates. That lots of sites with a particular political view parrot the same erroneous statistics isn't that impressive.

I think the US Department of Justice site is definative... unless you can show me another authoritative non-partisan source that can match this.

The 10.1% number is the number of "non-citizens" of which a percentage will be legal immigrants. This means that the percentage of prisoners in California who are illegal immigrants will be part of (i.e. lower than) 10.1%.

Whether this number is high or not is a subjective number.

The fact is that the 30-40% number that conservatives are throwing around to back up their claims is clearly false.


Okay, I'm pretty dense. Point out the page or location in US Department of Justice Site that indicates a 10.1% illegal prison population in California.

And before you look, let me explain what I said in my previous post. I'll type more slowly this time.

If you have 40% illegal prison population in California
And 30% illegal prison population in New Mexico
And maybe 15% illegal prison population in Texas
And 18% illegal prison population in Arizona,
And lower percentages in other states,

You can still have 10.1% illegal prison population in the USA nationwide.

I have NOT said 30% illegal prison population nationwide.

And while you're at it, show me any credible source to show that those California numbers cited were wrong.

And if that 3% of the USA population figure is illegal is accurate, then a 10.1% illegal prison population nationwide is a huge number.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:37 pm
Immigrants, legal and illegal, are not distributed uniformly across the country. Large local variations in any national statistic involving them should surprise no one. That certain areas of New Mexico, Arizona, California, or Texas should have very high fractions (much higher than the national averages) of incarcerated people of illegal origin is an entirely understandable situation.

For a host of reasons, poor people are generally more frequently involved in criminal behavior than those well-established economically. (I'm not saying that one group or another is better or worse, only noting an empirical fact.) Immigrants are predominantly in this category, and it is not surprising that they share the statistical behaviors of that group.

Could it be that some of those so vociferously pointing to the criminal activity of illegal immigrants are themselves descended from the German, Irish, Italian and Jewish gangsters who so entertained the country during the last century? (It is interesting to note that the Poles were relatively law abiding)
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:37 pm
http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp#1

Citizenship
United States: 141,358 (73.1 %)
Mexico: 32,655 (16.9 %)
Colombia: 3,234 (1.7 %)
Cuba: 1,633 (0.8 %)
Dominican Republic: 3,230 (1.7 %)
Other/Unknown: 11,249 (5.8 %)

26.9% non-US citizens in prison. Not 30%, and assuredly not all illegals, but much higher then 10.1%.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:44 pm
Foxfyre

How much does it take for you to admit you are wrong?

From the US Department of Justice Document I linked to on page five, right there in black and white (near the bottom of the page) are the official statistics on the percent of prisoners that are non-citizens in several border states. This report is for midyear 2005.

Among the states (listing both the number of non-citizen prisoners) and the percentage of the total prison population are the following border states.

California 16,613 10.1%
Arizona 4,179 12.7
Nevada 1,402 12.6

If you are disputing the official US government statistics, please provide another non-partisan source that has any authority on this matter.

You are using statistics that are fabricated. The statement that 30-40% of prisoners in California are illegal immigrants is clearly false.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:49 pm
McGentrix, Your statistics are for federal prisons (which presumably include people whose only crimes are immigration related). The claim that Foxfyre was pushing was for State Prisons.

I notice that in your statistics the percentage of prisoners who were Hispanic is 30%-40%. I am sure this is a coincidence.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:49 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Immigrants, legal and illegal, are not distributed uniformly across the country. Large local variations in any national statistic involving them should surprise no one. That certain areas of New Mexico, Arizona, California, or Texas should have very high fractions (much higher than the national averages) of incarcerated people of illegal origin is an entirely understandable situation.

For a host of reasons, poor people are generally more frequently involved in criminal behavior than those well-established economically. (I'm not saying that one group or another is better or worse, only noting an empirical fact.) Immigrants are predominantly in this category, and it is not surprising that they share the statistical behaviors of that group.

Could it be that some of those so vociferously pointing to the criminal activity of illegal immigrants are themselves descended from the German, Irish, Italian and Jewish gangsters who so entertained the country during the last century? (It is interesting to note that the Poles were relatively law abiding)


This all came up because I dared to say that all people sneaking into the country illegally were not coming with good motives. (I had already agreed that most immigrants, legal and illegal, are essentially hard working, law abiding people.) OE politely asked for some data on that and I offered some.

And yeah, I have some questionable ancesters of my own--one branch where the patriarch had to leave the country and the rest of the family change their name due to an altercation in Walsenburg CO--and some others of dubious credentials all who have produced some pretty decent people in the subsequent generations. That was then. This is now.

A 10% non-citizen prison population nationwide and certainly the 30% to 50% numbers in the border states that we're seeing via some sources should not be acceptable to anybody.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:51 pm
McGentrix wrote:

26.9% non-US citizens in prison.


Sorry for my related responses: I didn't get that the question was about US-citizens in prison vs non-citizens.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:53 pm
Foxfyre stubbornly wrote:

A 10% illegal immigrant population nationwide and certainly the 30% to 50% numbers in the border states that we're seeing via some sources should not be acceptable to anybody.


Repeat after me...

According to the any reliable statistic seen on this thread... including the US Department of Justice. The "30% to 50% number in the border states" is a complete fabrication by conservatives for political gain.

That should not be acceptable to anybody.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:59 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Up to a third of the U.S. federal prison population is composed of non-citizens, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics - but not all non-citizen prison inmates are illegal aliens.



I was sourcing this statisc.

That 30-40% were Hispanic as coincidence? What does that matter. I doubt the Bureau of Prisons cares about trying to goose any numbers.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 02:04 pm
Foxy, your stats conveniently ignore the fact that a significant percentage of illegal aliens in prison are there because they are illegal aliens. The states where they are of higher concentration, naturally, are landing states where most of the immigration arrests are made. This is surprising why?

This is a bit old, but relevant. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/iofc00pr.htm

Not only do your stats not account for illegal aliens imprisoned for no other reason than being illegal aliens; how do you explain that Blacks are still two and a half more times as likely to be in prison than Hispanics? (hint: read George's second paragraph again)
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 02:05 pm
The claim Foxfyre persistantly makes; that 30-40% (and now 30-50%) of prison inmates in border states are illegal immigrants, is clearly wrong. All reliable statistics that I have seen, including statistics from the US Department of Justice, refute this.

This is the claim that I am objecting to.

I didn't dispute Foxfyre's claim that up to a third of Federal prisoners are non-citizens (although the numbers you posted are only about a quarter). I am pointing out that this probably includes people whose only crimes are immigration related (i.e. not murderers or rapists).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 02:20 pm
Ebrown I am sincerely looking at the data site you linked and I cannot find percentages for illegals there -- I see breakdown by age, race, etc. but not by citizenship status. If I can find credible numbers to dispute the other sources, I will happily admit the OTHER SOURCES are in question. I haven't offered any numbers myself but have offered numbers others have put together.

Obill, I don't know how it is in Illinois, but in New Mexico people don't go to prison for being here illegally. Very few, if any, are even arrested for being here illegally. Those in jail and prison are mostly incarcerated for the same crimes of crimes that would land a citizen in jail. The border patrol has some holding facilities where illegals are put for awhile before they are deported, but I'm pretty sure those aren't factored into the incarceration statistics. That's the situation here now. I honestly don't know what it was several years ago. (They probably are tougher on the Coyotes though. Those can be some really bad people.)
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 02:26 pm
Foxfyre,

On my link at the bottom of page 5; the lower right hand corner. The table is for the percentage of inmates that are not citizens.

As I have been saying, the percentage for California is 10.1. A couple of other border states have values of around 12 percent.

This is for inmates who are not citizens. All illegal immigrants are not citizens so the percentage of inmates who are illegal immigrants in California is certainly below 10%.

Please Go there now, look at the table and check it out for yourself. If you are able to admit you are wrong, you will realize that the 30%-50% number you are citing is simply not possible (as the real number is below 10% and possibly well below 10%).

Then please stop parroting derrogatory statistics that are clearly fabricated.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 02:29 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Foxfyre stubbornly wrote:

A 10% illegal immigrant population nationwide and certainly the 30% to 50% numbers in the border states that we're seeing via some sources should not be acceptable to anybody.


Repeat after me...

According to the any reliable statistic seen on this thread... including the US Department of Justice. The "30% to 50% number in the border states" is a complete fabrication by conservatives for political gain.

That should not be acceptable to anybody.


Our Attorney General, the same one who ran against Heather Wilson for the First District Congressional seat in November (and almost won it), just this last week cited the 30% number for incarceration of illegals in New Mexico. Her last name is Madrid. You have a problem with the number, please take it up with her.

As far as number 'fabricated by conservatives for politcal gain' please check the poll numbers on this thread. Those represent A2K votes on a site where liberals outnumber the conservatives easily 2 to 1 or more. This is not a conservative or liberal issue. This is a people issue. There are legitimate differences of opinion and all should be heard. I have not insulted you by suggesting you intentionally misrepresent issues to support your side of the argument. I don't either.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 02:29 pm
Oh, good luck with that one

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 02:53 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Our Attorney General, the same one who ran against Heather Wilson for the First District Congressional seat in November (and almost won it), just this last week cited the 30% number for incarceration of illegals in New Mexico. Her last name is Madrid. You have a problem with the number, please take it up with her.


If you could give a link for that, I will try to solve my problems with Erma Sedillo (Deputy Secretary, NM Corrections Department).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 03:02 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Our Attorney General, the same one who ran against Heather Wilson for the First District Congressional seat in November (and almost won it), just this last week cited the 30% number for incarceration of illegals in New Mexico. Her last name is Madrid. You have a problem with the number, please take it up with her.


If you could give a link for that, I will try to solve my problems with Erma Sedillo (Deputy Secretary, NM Corrections Department).


I'm sure there's a link somewhere on the New Mexico site. They usually don't post everything state officials say there though.
0 Replies
 
 

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