What should be done about illegal immigration?

Foxfyre wrote:

I think what the member was saying, however, is that if the immigrants expect to re-create the society they left that was so bad that they wanted to leave it, all they do is put this country on the path to be as screwed up as the one they left.

So in your opinion "societal problems that caused them to become immigrants" just means "bad society" in this context?

Sort of. The only reason somebody would leave their country to come here is that things are better here than where they came from. It logically follows that it would not be then profitable for them to transport all the problems they left to their new country thinking that somehow they wouldn't be problems here.

Foxfyre wrote:

Sort of. The only reason somebody would leave their country to come here is that things are better here than where they came from. It logically follows that it would not be then profitable for them to transport all the problems they left to their new country thinking that somehow they wouldn't be problems here.

I don't think so. I think a reason for many people to leave their country is because they believe they can make more money in this other place than they can in the place they currently live in.

So many go to a place like the US to work, make money and send the money back to their countries to support their families at home.

That doesn't mean that to them, this new place is better than their home country. It's actually often quite the opposite. At home they have a family, friends, familiar surroundings, they know the language etc. etc.

In their new country of choice, they may be treated in a shabby way, they may have difficulties finding their way around, they may have to hide from the authorities.... but they can make more money than where they came from.

But I (and I think MizunoMan) are not talking about temporary workers who are here on work Visas or those who snub our laws by sneaking in uninvited and without permission. We were talking about immigrants who come here permanently. At least in the past these have come because it is a better place than where they were and they have embraced their new country with a fierce patriotism. These are the kinds of immigrants we want. In the past they were not always welcomed with open arms, but we have pretty much outgrown all that just like all of us have outgrown some of our less savory histories.

I am very much in favor of revamping our laws to make it easier for the good ones to get green cards along with a shorter and smoother path to citizenship if that is what they want.

I am still opposed to rewarding in any way those who have violated our laws at the expense of those who are doing their best to obey them.

Foxfyre wrote:

But I (and I think MizunoMan) are not talking about temporary workers who are here on work Visas or those who snub our laws by sneaking in uninvited and without permission. We were talking about immigrants who come here permanently. At least in the past these have come because it is a better place than where they were and they have embraced their new country with a fierce patriotism. These are the kinds of immigrants we want. In the past they were not always welcomed with open arms, but we have pretty much outgrown all that just like all of us have outgrown some of our less savory histories.

I am very much in favor of revamping our laws to make it easier for the good ones to get green cards along with a shorter and smoother path to citizenship if that is what they want.

I am still opposed to rewarding in any way those who have violated our laws at the expense of those who are doing their best to obey them.

I think it's a mistake to try and categorize people and label them "temporary" or "permanent" immigrants. Many people who stay in a country thought they would be back within a couple of months, and many who thought they had finally found their country of choice, the hoped-for paradise, found themselves packing their bags and heading home within less than a year.

I think you're glorifying the "immigrants of yore" - you're painting an unrealistic picture where people who left their country where longing for something better and nobler, and had only the most noble motives to up and leave their countries and, what's more important, to move to a new country and become citizens there.

You forget about the fact that going back simply wasn't a possibility for them, back then. Many despised the new country. Many rather kept their customs and their language and tried to modell the new place to resemble the place they had had to leave rather than accept the fact that they were many thousand miles away from what was still home to them. Just look at the Irish, Italian or German communities (to mention just the European immigrant groups). I doubt you would find an abundance of fierce patriotism and embracing their new country in the first, maybe even the second generation of immigrants.

I just can't agree OE. I think there should be very strong distinctions drawn between permanent immigrants and temporary guest workers. And I have too many fairly recent immigrants in my own family and too much hands on experience teaching citizenship classes to immigrants to believe these people want anything other than to be good Americans. They could and do out-patriot many of our native born citizens.

Of course there have been exceptions in the past and there are doubt exceptions now. It hasn't always gone by the book and it hasn't always worked out wonderfully for all immigrants. That was then. This is now.

I think it is not unreasonable to want and expect those who come here permanently to respect our laws, assimilate their culture into the American culture, earn their way, and contribute a positive influence to society instead of being a drain on it. I fervently believe the vast majority of immigrants who come here legally do just that.

However, for the record, I believe that the vast majority of those who are staying in the States "illegally" respect your laws, assimilate their culture into your culture, earn their way, and contribute a positive influence to society instead of being a drain on it.

old europe wrote:

However, for the record, I believe that the vast majority of those who are staying in the States "illegally" respect your laws, assimilate their culture into your culture, earn their way, and contribute a positive influence to society instead of being a drain on it.

I agree.

... but also people that are highly questionable as to their motives for being here.

a disproportionate percentage of the rapes, murders, drunk drivers, burglaries, drug trafficking, jail and prison populations in New Mexico and other border states involve people who are here illegally.

Foxfyre wrote:

a disproportionate percentage of the rapes, murders, drunk drivers, burglaries, drug trafficking, jail and prison populations in New Mexico and other border states involve people who are here illegally.

Yes, I've heard that claim made quite frequently. Do you have any actual numbers on that - especially about New Mexico? It's possible that this has been mentioned or posted earlier on this thread, but I hope you wouldn't mind to post these numbers again. It would help to have a more productive discussion on the topic, I think.

Here is a GAO piece that does provide some data but I am not convinced it presents the whole picture:
http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05646r.html

* Number of illegal aliens in our study population: 55,322.

* Results of our analysis pertain only to our study population. Results
cannot be generalized to all illegal aliens that may have been arrested
and therefore cannot be interpreted as representing arrest or offense
rates for all illegal aliens.

Here's a summary and yes, it is Newsmax so the slant is suspect, but the data cited is difficult to dispute:

After Colorado Media Matters initiated a public petition calling on 630 KHOW-AM radio host Peter Boyles to apologize for repeated false, misleading, and dubious claims he and his guests have made on the air about illegal immigration, Boyles on his October 20 show cited a series of questionable statistics on illegal immigration. Frequently, when citing the sources for the statistics, Boyles addressed Colorado Media Matters directly.

After saying he spent time "looking at numbers," Boyles read from three sources: an article from the right-wing news website NewsMax; an article on NewsWithViews.com by Frosty Wooldridge, author of the 2004 book Immigration's Unarmed Invasion and an occasional guest on Boyles's show; and an article by Manhattan Institute John M. Olin fellow Heather Mac Donald, published on the website of the conservative Center for Immigration Studies (CIS). Without disclosing the fact that he was reading from the NewsMax article, Boyles presented questionable statistics contained in that article. In addition, Boyles misstated a statistic from Wooldridge's article and repeated Mac Donald's statistics, even though Mac Donald's claims have been challenged by the Los Angeles Times and conservative columnist Linda Chavez.

Also Foxy, you might what to read your own links. The claim by your second "source" which you labled "from CO" says...

Quote:

After Colorado Media Matters initiated a public petition calling on 630 KHOW-AM radio host Peter Boyles to apologize for repeated false, misleading, and dubious claims he and his guests have made on the air about illegal immigration, Boyles on his October 20 show cited a series of questionable statistics on illegal immigration. Frequently, when citing the sources for the statistics, Boyles addressed Colorado Media Matters directly.

After saying he spent time "looking at numbers," Boyles read from three sources: an article from the right-wing news website NewsMax; an article on NewsWithViews.com by Frosty Wooldridge, author of the 2004 book Immigration's Unarmed Invasion and an occasional guest on Boyles's show; and an article by Manhattan Institute John M. Olin fellow Heather Mac Donald, published on the website of the conservative Center for Immigration Studies (CIS). Without disclosing the fact that he was reading from the NewsMax article, Boyles presented questionable statistics contained in that article. In addition, Boyles misstated a statistic from Wooldridge's article and repeated Mac Donald's statistics, even though Mac Donald's claims have been challenged by the Los Angeles Times and conservative columnist Linda Chavez.