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dyslexia and anarchism

 
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 04:41 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Government isn't needed in every area... there are many areas that the private sector can handle quite well.

But there are other areas where the private sector will fail miserably. In these areas government is indispensible.
Your claim is to some fair degree based on the premise that there must be a short term profit impetus to private enterprise. This is not necessity the case however with tax incentives and grants and government mandated criteria for the project in question. Indispensible?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 04:48 pm
Thomas wrote:
While the source you cite is as inconsistent with your account of the relevant history as it is with mine, and while it clearly states that the "specific purpose" of Galileo's job was teaching Euclidean geometry and Ptolemaic astronomy, but not developing telescopes . . .


You must have read that too quickly, and you must have not carefully read the linked material, or else you would have learned that Sarpi was employed by the Venetian Senate as a consultant, and kept them informed of Galileo's work, and you must have missed the part in which the Venetians made a large increase Galileo's salary for the right to manufacture telescopes based upon his method.

You apparently also missed that the Venetians brought Galileo to the university at Padua at three times his former salary. Do you suggest that he could have done the research suggested to him by Sarpi, the consultant of the Venetian Senate, without the pay he received from the Venetian Republic to teach at Padua? Do you suggest that modern Professors at University in Europe and the Americas and Africa and Asia who are engaged to teach specific subjects, are not also paid to perform the research which constitutes the concentration of their interest?

You usually try to project an image of a dispassionate seeker after the truth in these fora. How beneath that dignity is it to see you carping in such a disingenuous manner to having been busted for making up stories on topics about which you so obviously knew far less than you thought and would have had others believe.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 06:25 pm
So, is the nature of all government pernicious or not? that is my question, answer that and then we can move on to what could a society do to minimize the problem (I'm, course, speaking as an idealist)
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 06:32 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
For large collaborative projects that don't have the necessary economic incentive of short-term financial gain-- governments are very useful. Of course there are great accomplishments that have taken place that don't require this. But for certain projects government is indispensible.

The only way that projects like basic cancer research to take place is with public money. The reason for this is private money needs to have a reasonable amount of confidence of financial return on the investment within a definite period of time. Projects like basic cancer research, although unquestionably important, simply don't provide the economic incentive for private investment.

I would argue the Interstate highway system would be much worse if it were developed privately. The advantage of using public money (and government) is that this large project is then built without a financial return as the primary factor. Private highways could be built, but much less efficiently since presumably many private parties would be involved. Each would have her own financial interests at stake rather than building the most efficient system possible.


I am a software engineer;. Until recently I was working on a government grant to produce educational software.

In the private sector, education material is made by big textbook companies who have an incentive to produce stuff with less quality and effectiveness quickly. The result is lots of slick stuff that is easy to market but have no real effectiveness in the classroom (as shown by scientific studies)

Under a government grant, the pressure on us was to produce material based on research that would be proven effective by an independent study using real students. We were able to show quantitative gains in the classroom.

The research done by government grants does make it way into the public sector. But there is simply no incentive for this valuable research in the marketplace.

There is a clear, demonstrable benefit to this type of government program.


Of course, government has its costs. The question is whether the ability to do large collaborative work.is worth them.


You're assuming that people would choose not to give money to charity in the absence of government funding. which is a little silly. Cancer reseacrh and other forms of research would be paid for by private citizens through charity.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 06:33 pm
Diane wrote:
To me, the pernicious part comes in when government starts to add laws that are not limited to the good of society in general.


Virtually all of the worst atrocities committed by governments were done under the justification of "it's for the good of society." But I'm sure you've got it right this time, right?

You'll have to forgive me for being unconvinced.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 06:46 pm
To me the pernicious part begins when politicians become distracted by issues not related to persuing the public good.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 07:30 pm
anarchrist eh?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 07:40 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
anarchrist eh?

that too.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 07:43 pm
IronLionZion, I'm not sure what you meant by asking me if I got it right this time. I was stating an opinion, certainly not making a statement that was meant to be accepted as anything more than opinion.

I don't have the expertise to give an educated opinion on the most successful forms of government. What I say is related to what I read, what friends and relatives have experienced, what I've experienced personally and what I have seen of the government's performance for many years. I am also speaking ideally. I have serious doubts that an anarchy would work any more effectively that a republic.

Our government has done some remarkable good for society. In an ideal world, this would be the norm, with oversight restricting laws to good, not to politics as usual. Atrocities have been performed by all governments--I was speaking of the small, corrosive inclusions that do so much damage. Positive bills introduced to clean up the air, bills for civil rights, for the disabled, for relief from poverty and access to health care should be left alone. If thousands are included for a new highway in Mississippi, those bills which are for the good of society are terribly diluted by totally unrelated and politically motivated, pork.

To me, that is what makes government pernicious in an everyday sort of way. It seems to be the nature of the beast (or of the human politician). On that note, I don't think anarchy or any form of government has a chance to remain focussed soley on the good of society.

Guess I'm getting cynical in my old age.
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 07:44 pm
Perhaps you are ready to move to Home (Colony) Washington.

Well, okay.... perhaps you are ready to create a new Home Colony.....
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 04:47 am
Setanta wrote:
You must have read that too quickly, and you must have not carefully read the linked material, or else you would have learned that Sarpi was employed by the Venetian Senate as a consultant, and kept them informed of Galileo's work, and you must have missed the part in which the Venetians made a large increase Galileo's salary for the right to manufacture telescopes based upon his method.

This is correct, but does not rescue your original description. The relevant facts, according to your source, are these: After eighteen years of employment at his university, never having worked in applied optics as part of his job description, Galileo copied a Dutch telescope design and made improvements to it. After that, he fraudulently licensed to the Venetian Senate the right to manufacture those telescopes -- fraudulently, because part of the invention wasn't his to license, and because the Senate had no way of preventing production in other countries. The Venetian Senate tripled Galileo's salary in exchange for his design. (Later it froze the salary, presumably when it realized Galileo's fraud.)

But Galileo was never employed to develop telescopes: If he had been a private optometrician, the Senate would have found a different way of paying for his invention. If Galileo had never invented a telescope, he would have remained a professor under his old job description, at his old salary. If Venice had not noticed Galileo's fraud, it would have continued to employ him at his new salary, but still under his old job description. (There is no indication in your material that Galileo's job description changed when the salary did.) This is a pretty far shot from your initial account of the matter: "Galileo was in the employ of the Venetian Republic to study optics for the specific purpose of developing more powerful telescopes with the best possible resolution, their intent being to use them for commercial purposes." Contrary to your assertion, Venice never employed Galileo for the specific purpose of developing more powerful telescopes.

Setanta wrote:
You usually try to project an image of a dispassionate seeker after the truth in these fora. How beneath that dignity is it to see you carping in such a disingenuous manner to having been busted for making up stories on topics about which you so obviously knew far less than you thought and would have had others believe.

And you, whether you try it or not, project the image of a well-informed correspondent who often likes to mix thoughtful factual discussions with gratuitous ad-hominem sneers. I appreciate your factual input and thank you for the links you provided here. But I have no interest at all in your moral censure, and I can't be bothered to defend my integrity against your attacks on it. So unless you enjoy talking to yourself, go attack someone else.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 05:52 am
dyslexia wrote:
So, is the nature of all government pernicious or not? that is my question, answer that and then we can move on to what could a society do to minimize the problem (I'm, course, speaking as an idealist)

Yes dyslexia, all government is pernicious. As Thomas Paine put it in his Common Sense:
    "SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher. Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one [...]"

I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 07:15 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Sorry I wasn't clear Thomas. There is an economic incentive educational material for software Engineers (who are quite profitable now with disposible income on their own). I was working on educational material for K-12 public schools. Kids in general, and their parents don't have the resources to develop the material that is needed.

There is also an economic incentive to write childrens books like Tom Sawyer and Little House in the Prairie -- which children can then read in class. There is an economic incentive to write novels for the enjoyment of grown-ups, which school children can borrow in the library and read. (They range from The Catcher in the Rye, to Grapes of Wrath to In Cold Blood. There is a competitive market for teaching foreign languages to grown-ups. Children can learn foreign languages from these. As for math, I know for a fact that one of my great-grandfathers has learned geometry directly from Euclid's Elements, and learned it well. Euclid's Elements, to my knowledge, were not commissioned by the city of Athens, and certainly not by the kingdom of Württemberg. As for social sciences, there are treaties, inaugural addresses, and Supreme Court opinions, downloadable for free from the web. The teacher can just download them, assign them to his students, and ask them to develop their own opinions about them. Considering all this, I see no need of writing educational material specifically for K12 highschools at all.

ebrown_p wrote:
Public education is a great example. Providing a public education to children in your society is a clear benefit for all involved.

Compared to what? Providing no education at all, or providing a good private education? If you mean the former, I have no quarrel with you. Education is better than no education. But if you mean the latter, I'd like to see your evidence you may have for it. As for myself, the evidence I've seen so far comes from E.G. West: Education and the Industrial Revolution. Batsford (1975). It compares the 19th century educational history of England, the last European country to nationalize education, with Prussia, the first European country to do so. Looking at metrics like enrolment, literacy, and so forth, he finds that England was doing slightly better. He also finds that his data is not conclusive enough to prove that England actually did better. But if the currently prevailing opinion about public schooling was correct, Prussian schools should have cleaned England's clock, and they haven't. That's a bit of a disappointment for me, because I'd expect a privatized school system to do much better than a public one. But it also refutes that you need government to give your country's children a decent education.

Do you have more conclusive evidence than that?

ebrown_p wrote:
The private sector is not a very good model to provide education at a national level as there is no short-term individual market for it. Private solutions tend to provide education that benefits a small proportion of society in a focussed limited way.

I would have said that the benefit from an education mostly goes to the person who gets it. There is a complication because the person here is a child, and letting the parents decide produces a principal-agent problem. But this problem seems much less grave to me when the parents are the agent than when the government is.

ebrown_p wrote:
How do you end slavery in an anarchy?

You don't need to, because you need a government to establish slavery in the first place. How do you deport Dred Scott from Illinois back to Missouri without a government? How do you suppress Spartacus's slave riot without a government? You would have a much stronger case if you had asked how an anarchy can protect private property that people have a rightful claim to. But the example of slavery cuts both ways at best, and cuts against your argument in the worst.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 07:25 am
Thomas wrote:
You don't need to, because you need a government to establish slavery in the first place.


Just as a short note and as an aside: no. At least, history tells different. (The first slaves were all in family relations, later - in Greece and Rome - it was always private business .... until "the state" thought, it was something more to regulate (which wasn't bad, since life for slaves became better by that).

But established wasn't slavery by a government - not in first place or second.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 07:33 am
That's interesting, Walter. What kept those early slaves from running away?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 07:41 am
<I knew that once - but only for the 'Intermediate Examination in Ancient History :wink: >

World order - to name it in two words.
[At those times, the distinction between a wife and a slave wasn't a very large one - nowadays .... :wink: ]
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 07:43 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
<I knew that once - but only for the 'Intermediate Examination in Ancient History :wink: >

World order - to name it in two words.
[At those times, the distinction between a wife and a slave wasn't a very large one - nowadays .... :wink: ]

Ah ... those were the days ... Sic transit gloria mundi, or something like that. Wink
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 07:54 am
Yes Crying or Very sad



Laughing
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 08:16 am
"If we want things to stay as they are, they will have to change,"
Giuseppe di Lampedusa
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Mar, 2006 09:32 am
Dys
Dys' topic post reminds me what I see happening today. It appears we are moving post haste into the world of Populists versus the Elite Establishment. Long overdue, I must add.

BBB
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