50,000 Errors in the Bible...Is Bible God's Word??

@Krumple,

Par for the course for these religious types. All promises and no delivery. Emotional rhetoric vs demonstrable, evidence-based logic. Par for the course, in my experience.

0 Replies

@FBM,

FBM wrote:

What exactly does that explain?

Apparently, that context means something different to me than it does to you.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

FBM wrote:

AKA "liberation theology." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

Liberation theology has a political center not found among the JWs.

Krumple wrote:

He said twice that he had something to refute me with. Fire for my strawmen? Is he still trying to light the hay? Rubbing two sticks together? Can't find any matches? He had to order his flame retardant suit and is waiting for it to arrive in the mail? I really thought he was going to have something. But all we get is a person who opposes you is really just your friend. Nails himself up on a cross next to jesus.

Other than the fact that Jesus was not executed on a cross:

Krumple wrote:

It's like you build a robot and program it to murder your wife and then get upset when it murders your wife. It doesn't make sense. But the entire genesis story does not support a god that is all knowing at all.

neologist wrote:

But we are not robots.

Krumple wrote:

I am not saying we are robots.

Puppets, then?

Krumple wrote:

I am referring to the creator of the robot. If you create something knowing exactly what it's outcome will be, you can't be shocked when it carries out that outcome. You can't understand a simple analogy?

So free will does not exist?

Krumple wrote:

The flood story is a good example. Seeing that the entire Earth is corrupt so he wants to cleanse it? He didn't foresee this happening?

Again, free will.

Krumple wrote:

The list goes on and on. So how christians come to the conclusion that god is all knowing baffles me because the biblical accounts do not support an all knowing god.

Nominal christians have many ideas that I can't explain.
As do you.

1 Reply

@neologist,

You haven't explained your god's selective omniscience and how it relates to your religion's ideas of human free will, either, and your assertion that we have a responsibility towards your god despite the fact that we have free will, for that matter.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

FBM wrote:
What exactly does that explain?
Apparently, that context means something different to me than it does to you.

You're not very good at being specific. It's almost like you're dodging something.

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@InfraBlue,

What makes sense to you?
If God knows our outcomes in advance can we be said to have free will?
If we have no free will how can we have obligation other than that of a puppet?

I believe we have choice. (Deuteronomy 30:19, Joshua 24:15)

2 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

If God knows our outcomes in advance can we be said to have free will?

No one is claiming it works like that. Sure you could have free will if god knows all outcomes. God having absolute knowledge would in no way effect our free will. However; that is not the issue. The issue is that if god is all knowing then he would know all the choices you will ever make and why you made them. No secretes, and nothing hidden. This would mean that there will be a certain percentage of people he created who were destined for damnation.

This means that no matter what he "hopes", "wishes", "desires" for those particular people their choices end them up being "tortured", "abandoned", "damned" for eternity.

You can't claim to be an all compassionate, loving god knowing that you will create beings who are destined for eternal punishment. Those two things can not be true.

neologist wrote:

If we have no free will how can we have obligation other than that of a puppet?

Here is the thing. Even if you have free will yet god has expectations on you then even though you are not technically a puppet. He is placing conditions on to your existence which ultimately turns you into a puppet.

If you are only following god's word because you are afraid of the consequence of not, then you are a puppet. No matter how you spin this, you are a puppet to the theology. You are changing your behavior based on an unverifiable hypothesis to avoid a hypothetical punishment for failure. That makes you a puppet.

neologist wrote:

I believe we have choice. (Deuteronomy 30:19, Joshua 24:15)

Well I believe we don't have free will. Because we generally arrive at choice making which is driven by our emotions, which are in turn derived by biological effects. Every single emotion is based on conditions. If those conditions are not present, then the emotion is not present.

Every choice you make is built upon emotional interaction with reality. Anything from choosing what to eat, to what you are going to wear. This not only means we are limited in the choices but it also impacts the choice. We are led by these emotions to make certain decisions. Not only that but we are biologically driven as well to make choices. There is a huge list of things in which you can't chose or not chose.

You can't chose to not eat and expect to continue living. This is a limitation. You are forced to eat if you want to continue living. What you chose to eat is also limited. Most people select it based on previous experience or taste to inhibit a certain emotional response. We are driven biologically to make certain food choices. It is well documented.

We have the illusion of choice, but really the decision making is done internally and highly biased towards emotional fulfillment of some kind.

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@neologist,

neo wrote:

If God knows our outcomes in advance can we be said to have free will?

According to you, he's under no obligation to know anything, and at the same time nothing may be hidden from him, except that which he hides from himself. How does God's self-imposed ignorance function, exactly, in regard to he not knowing about our choices? Is there ever a time when he switches on his full omniscience? If so, does he self-impose amnesia to forget what he had known about our choices?

neo wrote:

If we have no free will how can we have obligation other than that of a puppet?

How is it that on the one hand we have free will, but on the other hand we have obligation?

2 Replies

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

How is it that on the one hand we have free will, but on the other hand we have obligation?

Have you always fulfilled your obligations? We can choose to ignore, can't we?

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

If so, does he self-impose amnesia to forget what he had known about our choices?

Are you asking if he is willing to forget our sins?

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
How is it that on the one hand we have free will, but on the other hand we have obligation?
Have you always fulfilled your obligations? We can choose to ignore, can't we?

That doesn't answer the question. Having free will as given by God necessarily precludes obligations, i.e. requirements/ constraints, otherwise it wouldn't be free will.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
If so, does he self-impose amnesia to forget what he had known about our choices?
Are you asking if he is willing to forget our sins?

No, I'm asking if God self-imposed amnesia to forget what he had already known about our choices during an instance of omniscience, if he has ever had such an instance.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

That doesn't answer the question. Having free will as given by God necessarily precludes obligations, i.e. requirements/ constraints, otherwise it wouldn't be free will.

We have the free will to honor or not honor our obligation. Obligation is not compulsion.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
How is it that on the one hand we have free will, but on the other hand we have obligation?
Have you always fulfilled your obligations? We can choose to ignore, can't we?

That doesn't answer the question. Having free will as given by God necessarily precludes obligations, i.e. requirements/ constraints, otherwise it wouldn't be free will.

Infra is essentially asking the same question that I have been discussing, although in a different way.

It would be like this. A guy asks you to chose between two drinks. You have free will to select one of them. But before you pick he threatens that if you pick the wrong one (he points to the wrong one), he is going to beat you down with a baseball bat.

Wouldn't this freedom of choice be influenced by his threat? Why would you go ahead and select the wrong one knowing that he is going to beat you for selecting it?

It's just like this within the theology of christianity. If you select the "wrong" choice you will be punished for it. So you don't honestly have free will because your choice is biased towards not wanting to be punished.

The ONLY way it would be true free will is if there was no reward or punishment lingering over your options. Because they bias your selection.

We know that this threat is prevalent within christianity because christians constantly remind non-believers and atheists that they are going to be punished for not believing or following the theology.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

. . . I'm asking if God self-imposed amnesia to forget what he had already known about our choices during an instance of omniscience, if he has ever had such an instance.

Would you please explain your question?
What is "self-imposed amnesia"?
What is an "instance of omniscience"?
I don't recall having used those terms.

As for God's willingness to forget our sins. That is something I believe (Acts 3:19)

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
. . . I'm asking if God self-imposed amnesia to forget what he had already known about our choices during an instance of omniscience, if he has ever had such an instance.
Would you please explain your question?
What is "self-imposed amnesia"?
What is an "instance of omniscience"?
I don't recall having used those terms.

As for God's willingness to forget our sins. That is something I believe (Acts 3:19)

Your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking.

Really!?
You explain Blue's word salad.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

. . . The ONLY way it would be true free will is if there was no reward or punishment lingering over your options.

How do you account for criminal acts committed with full understanding of consequences?

You might make a good defense attorney. Why not offer your services to John Henry Brown?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Krumple wrote:
Your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking.
Really!?
You explain Blue's word salad.

neologist wrote:

What is "self-imposed amnesia"?
What is an "instance of omniscience"?
I don't recall having used those terms.

As for God's willingness to forget our sins. That is something I believe (Acts 3:19)

I know you asked infra for input but just to show you lack comprehension skills I will give my input. I'm pretty sure this is what infra meant.

neologist wrote:

What is "self-imposed amnesia"?

We were discussing god's omniscience (all knowing ability). But how can god decide not to know something? To be able to stop knowing something he would have to willfully impose forgetfulness of what is known. Infra just chose to use the word amnesia to describe this method. How can you willingly forget something on purpose? In other words self imposed amnesia.

neologist wrote:

What is an "instance of omniscience"?

If god wanted to turn his omniscience back on it would be full omniscience. How do you decide what not to know and what to know? Is he willfully selecting what not to know? So it would be impossible to turn omniscience on and off. You would know what you chose to ignore or forget. So it doesn't make any sense.

neologist wrote:

I don't recall having used those terms.

Infra isn't claiming you made these statements. Infra is just pointing out an error any time someone attempts to claim that god can selectively chose what he knows and does not know. The whole reason this came up was because I pointed out a flaw in being all knowing.

To have omniscience has a consequence that you would know the actions of all beings you created. You would know the result of all events.

To get around this some people here have suggested that god can willfully chose to turn off his omniscience. But this also has a consequence. It doesn't solve the problem nor answer the issue.

I apologize to Infra if I bastardized the meaning but I think I'm right on those statements.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

I know you asked infra for input but just to show you lack comprehension skills I will give my input. I'm pretty sure this is what infra meant.

neologist wrote:

What is "self-imposed amnesia"?

Krumple wrote:

We were discussing god's omniscience (all knowing ability). But how can god decide not to know something? To be able to stop knowing something he would have to willfully impose forgetfulness of what is known. Infra just chose to use the word amnesia to describe this method. How can you willingly forget something on purpose? In other words self imposed amnesia.

When we refer to knowing in advance, the outcome of our free will decisions, God is under no more necessity than you or I are under compulsion to read the last page of the whodunnit. God also has free will.

neologist wrote:

What is an "instance of omniscience"?

Krumple wrote:

If god wanted to turn his omniscience back on it would be full omniscience. How do you decide what not to know and what to know? Is he willfully selecting what not to know? So it would be impossible to turn omniscience on and off. You would know what you chose to ignore or forget. So it doesn't make any sense.

This is considerably more complex than need be. Suppose you delete something on your computer; where does it go? Recycle bin? Is is in your memory? Not for all practical purposes. I'll speculate here and say God has the power to empty the recycle bin if he chooses to do so. He does have free will, I believe.

neologist wrote:

I don't recall having used those terms.

Krumple wrote:

Infra isn't claiming you made these statements. Infra is just pointing out an error any time someone attempts to claim that god can selectively chose what he knows and does not know. The whole reason this came up was because I pointed out a flaw in being all knowing.

The flaw you pointed out is in the use of the word 'omniscient', which, to many, implies necessity. Nothing may be hidden from God. That is not the same as God must know everything.

Krumple wrote:

To have omniscience has a consequence that you would know the actions of all beings you created. You would know the result of all events.

Assuming omniscience to imply necessity, that would be right.

Krumple wrote:

To get around this some people here have suggested that god can willfully chose to turn off his omniscience. But this also has a consequence. It doesn't solve the problem nor answer the issue.

Turning on/off seems an anthropomorphic assertion; but, OK. You will still have to explain how it does not answer the issue.

Krumple wrote:

I apologize to Infra if I bastardized the meaning but I think I'm right on those statements.

You are probably right about what he said. Subject to correction by Blue, I suppose.

I'm sorry for assuming some of this to be self evident. I have voice loud enough to clear the room. I have no obligation to use it.

1 Reply

50,000 Errors in the Bible...Is Bible God's Word??

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