God help me, I'm one of THEM

Gosh, this is some kind of a tinderbox of a thread!

OK, so, nimh, you are just noticing that I tend to speak up when I think that one A2K'er is being unfair to another? I do that all the dang time! And that's not limited to people who happen to be in this little mother-clique you're talking about -- the other two recent instances I can think of that I did it before this were to defend Lash (who I've had many knock-down drag-out arguments with) and Momma Angel (same). Oh and then I spoke up for Wolf in there someplace too I think, just so it's clear that it's not only women I do that with or something.

If you're saying I was, in turn, unfair to Chai or flushd (anyone else?), OK. But you seem to be acknowledging that what I actually was reacting to was, in fact, unfair. (A person says that taking a kid to a class for less than 45/ minutes a week is "constantly" bringing her places for socialization, I'm supposed to say... what? How does the dynamic become more "healthy?" Should I say nothing when I see misrepresentations or inaccuracies? Again, let me emphasize, that's something I do everywhere, not just on this thread and not just with this group of moms.)

If FreeDuck was annoyed by my speaking "for" her, I'd trust her to tell me so. Instead, what she said here was:



Chai -- you have by now noted that FreeDuck isn't forcing her daughter to do something she doesn't want to do, haven't you?

you can't make me answer that.

I won't

I won't

<Presses lips together>

I think this has more to do with being a text-based message board than any kind of unhealthy dynamic.

A recent study showed that probability of understanding the tone of an E-mail is no better than chance.

It is only natural that folks who converse frequently will tend to understand the nuances behind a conversation better than newcomers.

I've never thought of Chai, a favorite poster, as an outsider, except to the extent that every one of us are out here hanging on our own wee ice floes and are outside of each others' life contexts, more or less.

True. We can be a pretty rough bunch... with 3,800-odd posts one would think that she'd be prepared for that by now.

If one reaches into a drawer of knives....

That is exactly right DrewDad.

Having spent yesterday with bio-family, Mo is having a mean/cry/hug day today. A push/pull, hate/love day. That's typical. I expected it.

Because he is having a mean day we aren't going anywhere and none of his little friends can come over to play.

That leaves me for him to bully.

I suppose I could just let him beat me up.

Instead I tell him that if he can't be nice I can't play with him. I say: "I'm sorry but if you're going to hit me and yell at me I don't want to play with you. I'm going to get my book and sit here and read while you play."

I suppose I could just let him think that you can treat anyone any way you want.

But I'm not going to do that.

My "exactly right" is to DrewDad's post at the bottom of the last page.

Frankly osso, it's only in the parenting thread....ditto drewdad....There's been many a time I've wanted to contribute something I've noticed about kids, but I've learned from experience it's most likely going to be disected, critiqued, put back together and found wanting. Then, a few pages later, someone who's around a lot will say basically the same thing, and be applauded.

soz...I noticed long ago you like to jump in and defend...Why? I mean, I think we've all done that at one point or another, but personally, I wait until the people in question get most of their talking done with each other, then, if it's still where I think there's a piece missing, I'll jump in and supply.

Otherwise, I feel we're all adults here, and are totally capable of speaking for ourselves, without an interpreter.

It's like sitting in a room with several people, and you say something, and another person who only casually knows you pipes up and feels they they have to explain to everybody what you just said....It's even more annoying when the others in the room start listening to the interpreter, rather than the original speaker. I've been in situations where I've been asked a question, and before I can get 10 words out, someone starts "helping" me. Sometimes I'll just break back in, sometimes when that happens repeatedly, I'll say to the person, "You know, they were talking to me, not you"....I've also, when I didn't feel like talking anyway, just stopped in mid word and let them take over, sometimes I don't speak again because all of a sudden the dynamics change and all of a sudden, you're not even there anymore....or, sometimes, either the person kindly "helping me" will address me...if it's the "helper" I'll respond, "Well, you seem to be doing a great job on your own, go ahead and contine". If it's another person, before trying to speak again, I'll look at my helper and say, "Well, do you want to answer this for me, or may I?"

Of course I can't speak for anyone else, but I find someone defending or explaining me, well, undesireable.

Perhaps others enjoy relieving themselves of that burden...I don't know.

Personally, I love to see other people jump in and elaborate on my posts. I don't feel that they're trying to speak for me. I think it is simply the nature of conversation.

I'd also like to say that in my experience the parenting forum has been anything BUT a closed circle.

I'm a guardian, not a parent (yet, anyway). My entrance to "parenting" was overnight and bewildering. I knew nothing and I never even pretended that I knew anything.

The people on this fourm essentially adopted and educated me. A lot of us have kids at right about the same ages. Perhaps we are guilty of expecting others to understand without a lot of explaining. The fact that we have talked to each other for years, often about our own doubts and frustrations and some serious angst, I think, give us a little latitude.

I know that a lot of questions I post in the parenting category expect someone to have read for years. Having to try to explain the whole Mo-show in a few paragraphs is impossible.

Last but not least, having reached my 40s before I became a "parent" and never having had any day to day experience with a child, I so seriously underestimated their intelligence and ability and intensity. Therein lies the big difference between theory and practice.

I dunno. We've talked about it before here, it's a personality trait several of us have. In general, it stands me in good stead. I've gotten more surprise/ unsolicited PMs about "Thanks so much for sticking up for me in that situation" (or varitations thereof) than any other single subject.

I take a lot of things into consideration before doing so. One quirk on this thread is that for whatever reason, there were a lot of instances where FreeDuck and I posted literally within minutes of each other -- I was typing when she posted, and vice versa. That means that there are more, and more redundant posts than I'd usually purposely do.

In this situation, one of the considerations was that, when I first said wait a minute, the last run of posts had been, I thought, cumulatively more rough/ critical than the situation warranted. I thought that if I had been the one to start the thread, I'd appreciate it if FreeDuck said something supportive at that point. Golden Rule et al.

As DrewDad indicates and as I'm sure we all know, discussion forums just don't work the same as real life in a lot of ways. In that situation, with people all in a room together, I'd never act the way you describe. If someone asked for help, overtly or with body language, I certainly would, and I'd be on the lookout for it. Actually, I guess there is some of that here too -- if someone doesn't seem to want help, I'll stay out of it. If someone seems frustrated and desirous of support, I'm happy to provide it. I don't always read it right, I'm sure. Overall, though, I've gotten far more positive feedback than negative. <shrug>

(Typing while someone else posted just happened again btw... I like what boomer has to say about the conversational aspects.)

You've caught my back several times, soz, and I have always appreciated it.

I appreciate it when other's do it too.

Many people do know me well enough to speak for me here and I can always go back and correct it later.

Eh, yeah, me too. I guess the effect of that - the way it comes across - all depends on proportions. If one poster gets criticized, (partly) unfairly, by five, and you jump in to back him/her up, then thats really cool (and you'll get those grateful PMs you mention and stuff). Thats how the first time you did it in this thread came across too, to me.

Then (from the initial barrage through first Chai Tea's personal posts, then flushd emerging, then me saying something), the proportions just seemed to reverse - to me, anyway. More like, every time someone new dares to say something, he/she immediately gets brushed aside both by the addressee, and by you. Just a bit much, is all.

So, <shrugs back>, of course "overall" you'll get more positive than negative feedback on doing this, cause its basically a nice thing. Just it's all in the proportions whether it is still backing up a piled-on-ee, or turns into just piling on yourself. (And yeah, that's subjective)

Argh, its also a bit unfair to focus this all on you, too - it's just I was already nodding to flushd's piranha remark, so I thought I'd say something. To complete that overdramatic metaphor, it's like, every time someone comes in and seems to make some kind of breach or sumthin, FD, Boom, you and DD will quickly realign so the circle is made whole again. Ah, all's still in order. Vibe like that somehow. <shrugs> But - all subjective, all perception. And that is four posters I generally admire and agree with, so I dunno - perhaps the rest of us is just crazy.

So. Anyway... see ya laters, alligators ... ;-)

We are Borg. Resistance if futile!

You know, I remember my mom recommending some Margaret Atwood book to me. The story turns out to be about some woman who walks away from her family and never looks back. That is one hell of a book to have your mother "LOVE".

One thing I never realized until I started raising a kid:

You love them always. You would lay down in the desert and be eaten by vultures rather than have a hair on their head harmed. You would kill anyone who tried to harm them -- and you even consider buying a gun for this purpose. You would do.... whatever... to see them grow up happy and healthy.

But still there are days when you just don't like them.

This can be verified by looking at the times on the posts, but I think this:



might be related to this:



I remember that at least once I waited for a while to see if FreeDuck would respond, went and did something, nothing, did something else, nothing, then typed and clicked submit and there she was...

OK, just one more question.




OK, I dont get this.

First off, to start with the obvious, I dont get how my "experiencing your parent(s) expressing disappointment [..] is probably one of the worst things for a kid's natural self-image or self-confidence" gets to be oh, "i should just let him think he can treat anyone any way he wants", then?

That sounds like a, err, straw man thingie. I'd say there's a bunch of possibility in between.

But, beyond that. Or, I mean, about that.

Setting rules I get. Thats what you're describing in your post, Boom. "These are the rules - you dont hit me when I play with you - so if you start hitting, then: no playing."

But where does "expressing disappointment" as tool for discipline (need to) get into it?

I mean, isn't there a difference between:

"I'm sorry but if you're going to hit me and yell at me I'm not going to play with you" (paraphrase from Boom)

and

"I'm disappointed that you chose to hit me and yell at me" (paraphrase from DD)?

The second approach - which sounds basically like that horror cliche, "no, Momma isnt angry, she's just sad" - raises red flags for me (I mean, that line's kinda come to stand for all that's bad about a certain kind of parenting, hasnt it? ).

While the former seems pretty straightforward to me, but I dont see where the contradiction between it and avoiding the "expressing disappointment" thing necessarily comes in..?

Heh

So, I have an answer, can I give it? :-)

Please do, soz!

But no, nimh, I don't think there is a difference between the two. When I say "I'm sorry I can't do X because (you're being mean)" it means that "I'm disappointed that I can't do X because you (are being mean to me).


That is how it gets from here to there.

I think a kid's natural confidence and self-image needs to come from understanding that their actions have an effect on others.

Mo's best friend is this insanely scrawny kid who lives across the street. Mo is CONFIDENT that he can take this kid down.

When he is mean to said kid, I am disappointed and I let him know that I am disappointed.

Should I just say "you're bigger, you're stronger - boys are supposed to be big and strong, take the pip-sqeak down"?

Should I feed his natural self-image and confidence by letting him knock this kid around?