God help me, I'm one of THEM

Cyphercat, no, I didn't take your comments that way at all and I was glad you threw out the ballerina joke -- it gave me a much needed humor break. Both you and flushd are, of course, welcome to hang around and throw in your two cents whenever you feel like it. I've appreciated your input. And I really appreciate that you've all been very respectful.

Osso and DD, I hear you both and agree with you both re: using disappointment only in behaviors and being careful not to mix it up with disappointment in a person.

I had a thought last night just after I turned off the computer (hate it when that happens), will see if I can decipher my notes (yes, I made notes!). It's one of those that may be useful, may not be, just tossing out there...

OK, this was brought to mind by E.G. and I talking about how things had gone that day. He has a work-visitor (someone who's come for a week to see how many papers they can write/ ideas they can come up with), a person who he's been a mentor to. It wasn't a direct advisor-student relationship but he's been instrumental in her success (and she's done very well). (I'll call her Ann.)

She came over yesterday and Ann and E.G. and sozlet went to the North Market for a bit of showing off Columbus (Ann hasn't been here before, she worked with E.G. in Chicago, previously), to get some food for dinner, and to give me a bit of time.

So, in giving a recap of the day, E.G. said that sozlet had been annoying at the North Market, a bit bratty. It came out that their feedback loop had been: E.G. was wanting to show off what a great kid he had... she did some normal but not-particularly-great stuff... he got annoyed... she was annoyed that he was annoyed and got brattier... he was more annoyed... and on it went.

I saw it at dinner, too, which was otherwise fun (I know Ann pretty well.) E.G. would tell sozlet to be more careful, to not do things we usually do at the dinner table (spit out a chicken bone on the plate instead of going elsewhere to spit it out), and she was reacting to all of that, too.

I think a big part of what was going on was he just wanted to show off how great his kid was (not a bad impulse, in and of itself), but how that manifested itself was increased demands and exasperation, which elicited the not-so-good stuff from sozlet.

The part that I think might be instructive (or maybe not) is that I was thinking about times that we've started classes since we moved -- there has definitely been an element of the kid's behavior reflecting on the parent, whether that is deserved or not. As in, when sozlet's sweet and helpful and mature and funny, the parents look at me with interest -- hey, you must be a good mom, and you have a cool kid, I'd like to get to know you better. That's nice, and especially right after we moved, really important for making a place in this community.

In terms of what bothered you about how she acted, it would make sense that your daughter has attributes that you were proud of as a mom -- fearless, fast, aggressive -- and that those attributes say something about you as a mom (what you value) that you looked forward to displaying to other parents there. A simpatico sort of thing.

So I could see how that could be part of why the stakes were higher than usual. I remember one day at cheerleading, sozlet was just not in the mood (as I said earlier, it was just a badly-taught class, too), and kept coming back to me and flopping on my lap and complaining and not wanting to do it, and I certainly remember some sort of embarrassment there, even though that was several classes in and she'd pretty much established who she was already. I can easily imagine that if I arrived at cheerleading the first day and she acted like that it would've been upsetting. As it is, I made some of the best local parent contacts we've had so far at that class. That's not nothing, at all.

By the way, my overriding message with the circling the wagons thing is that if something is over-critical/ unfair, there will probably be a reaction, but I don't want non-parents to feel they can't participate in this stuff, in general. A non-parental perspective is often very valuable.

That makes a lot of sense.

Good! I had a heck of a time wrestling it into something coherent and didn't quite manage it. (That seems to happen often with late-night inspiration that I try to translate the next day...)

No, it was pretty clear to me -- and familiar. You did a good job explaining it.

The stuff about what the kid does reflecting who we are as parents could probably start a whole other thread, and it sort of ties in with the brief subplot of how difficult it can be to talk to parents about their kids and their parenting styles.

FD, it never crossed my mind that you might take my comments regarding disappointment as being directed specifically toward you, or even in your general direction.

My apologies. My comments were sparked by comments from others.

What? No way did I take it that way at all, DD. I've appreciated your comments and I thought you were just saying what I was saying.

Oh, I think you did a good job. Your job was to give your daughter the opportunity to play a team sport and see if she enjoys that. Now she has rejected the opportunity you have given her, so you've found out she doesn't enjoy soccer. Just let her quit, move on, and try the next opportunity. No harm done.

Perhaps you feel cheated because you thought she had volunteered to play soccer -- when she had really just volunteered to cheerlead, and her hatred of organized soccer just wasn't intense enough to break your cheerleading-for-soccer deal.

(And if you still need someone to shoot you -- hey, anytime! That's what friends are for.)

Thanks Thomas. Aim high, will you, so that it goes right between my eyes?

Totally agree with your first post and that's how it went. So on Saturday, while her brother played soccer, she (in her cheerleading uniform) and I just kicked the ball back and forth. She had a good time. Oddly though, she asked me about three times that day if "today is a soccer day" for her. Perhaps she felt it was too good to be true. I hope she didn't think it was a punishment for not trying. I tried to make it clear that she was quitting because she didn't enjoy it. Time will tell, I guess.

Did you outright ask her?

Like, "Do you want to quit soccer?"

It's a dangerous question, because if she's anything like sozlet (or me, when I was a kid), the answer might be "no." Might be that giving her control over whether she goes or not will be enough to make her decide she wants to give it another try after all.

No, I never asked her outright. We talked about it in the car on the way home last week. I told her she doesn't have to play anymore and asked her what she thought of that. She was fine with it and reiterated that she doesn't like to play in front of other people.

But then when the day came, I think she was just feeling me out to see if I really meant it. She does know that if she changes her mind I will let her try it again. But that's a good point, letting her decide might change things a bunch. I'll see if I can find a way to introduce that. At this point, it might be making too much of it.

That sounds pretty conclusive, though. It does sound like you were soliciting her opinion on it, and she had her chance.

From what you've said, what I'd guess will happen is that once this whole incident has receded a bit into the past, and if you're neutral next time it comes up (fine with you if she plays soccer, fine with you if she doesn't), eventually she'll do it of her own accord and be more into it.

That's what I think/hope. She does enjoy kicking the ball and likes to play with her brother. And truthfully, it's fine with me if she only ever plays sandlot soccer (which is more fun anyway) and never plays organized. I was just worried about the whole gender thing, but I think that was unjustified.

Could have been more one aspect among many than completely unjustified.

It's definitely still something I'm struggling with re: sozlet; blanking on how it came up most recently, but there was some reason that we had the discussion, yet again, that yes it was OK that she likes some "boyish" thing (toy or activity or something).

Yeah, I had a thought when we were talking about how kids don't always get the messages we intend (back several pages) and how that's actually kind of how all of this got started in a wierd circular way. I was worried that she would pick up on a subtle message that nobody is really intending to send -- that some things are appropriate for girls and some things are only for boys -- but that is sent nevertheless. I can't even take them to McDonalds's without it coming up because I can't order a happy meal without telling them what gender the child is. I've taken to just telling them they are both boys because the boys' toys are so much better. Kids get signals from all kinds of sources, not just from their parents, and they get unintended signals all the time.

I don't think I articulated that as clearly as I was thinking it.

Did yo usay she is 4. Very few kids let alone boys are interested in Soccer at 4. Most of them can't get a team sport at that age. Please do not be frustrated, The more I grow up with my kids the more I realize that it is about them not you and it is about letting go og your controls and about letting them develope theitr inner ones.

Hy luvmy, thanks for your input. This thread is actually from over a year ago. It turned out to have more to do with the public clinging and my mental confusion of issues than her appreciation for team sports. She has since played and loved it, turning out to be quite good at it. But her activity of choice right now is gymnastics so that's what she's doing. She's quite good at that too. She's an incredibly physical child -- strong and fast -- so there was never a question that she would be involved in some sport or another.