Rethinking Homosexuality

Would you care to offer support for any of the above statements? Studies? Anything that would give me a reason to consider the validity of your position.

Thanks.

Yes. I will. If you will explain why YOU think so many gay people commit suicide.

I don't know why they commit suicide, otherwise I would not be interested in your belief that they do so because of how they are treated by society.

If I was being a smart-ass about asking, I would have made absolutely sure you would not have mistaken what I wrote. Sorry if you take my sincere interest in knowledge for anything other than that.

I would like to know why people think gay children are killing themselves at such an extraordinary rates.

I can't imagine what they must think.

It's so coldhearted. Have you ever read about one of these children? The horrible teasing, the pile on's, the isolation, parent's embarrassment or worse, total social rejection. Doesn't it break your heart that they'd rather blow their brains out or hang themselves, rather than go to school one more day?

These are children our society has abandoned.

And, you really don't think you know why they kill themselves?

CR, you seem to miss the point of Lash' question, which is why it is that you have come to the conclusion that a great many homosexuals commit suicide. Why do you believe that, not why do you believe homosexuals how commit suicide do so.

Your response shows that you are unable to conceive of a circumstance in which your assumption about suicide by homosexuals is not correct.

Searching for a Way Out
Stopping Gay Teen Suicide
By Ciara Torres

"I never had a low self-esteem that would make me gay. At one point, though, the reverse happened. Being homosexual led me to have a loss of self-esteem when I first became aware of society's attitudes about homosexuality." --Aaron Fricke, Reflections of a Rock Lobster

For a number of years, researchers have known that one-third of all teenagers who commit suicide are gay. In one sense, this statistic is incredibly shocking because, according to the Kinsey Report, gay teens only comprise one-tenth of the teen population. This means that they are 300 percent more likely to kill themselves than heterosexual youth. In another sense, it is predictable that gay teens kill themselves more often than other young people simply because their life chances are so limited by social and legal discrimination. Only when this discrimination is eliminated will these shocking statistics change.

Examples of discrimination are ubiquitous. In 42 states, gays have no legal protection from employment or housing discrimination. Worse, laws put on the books during colonial times still criminalize homosexual acts in 25 states. These laws were upheld in 1986 by the Supreme Court in the Bowers v. Hardwick case.

Thus young gay individuals realize that they must hide their identity for fear of social and legal consequences which can destroy their lives. Homosexuals can be fired, evicted, kept from their own biological children, restricted from adopting children, and imprisoned for sodomy. The homosexuality of historical figures has been systematically left out of education in the public schools, giving gay youth the false impression that gays have never affected history in a positive way.

Also, on a purely social level, many gay teens run the risk of losing their friends or being thrown out of their homes if they either come out or are inadvertently outed. Admittedly, there is a direct relation between the social perception of gays and the rights accorded to gays. Many Christians and Jews believe that God considers homosexual acts sinful. Others believe homosexuality goes against nature. These beliefs continue to fuel legal discrimination against gays. Many just don't realize that these legal loopholes leave gays completely vulnerable to homophobes.

But laws should not be based on public prejudice. Our country has a long history of discriminating legally against groups that were stigmatized socially; the Chinese, the Irish, and Blacks are examples. Both the social front and the legal front must be addressed. It is more important to have the legal protections in place first. To compare this to African-American history, one reason that de facto segregation could be fought was that de jure segregation was found illegal in 1954. The legal protections enable the social discourse to continue peacefully.

For a brief moment after President Clinton's election, gays and supporters of gay rights were hopeful because they thought he would lead the battle for gay rights. One of his first acts after lifting the moratorium on fetal research and the "Gag Rule" was an attempt to lift the ban on gays in the military. But when President Clinton met resistance, he showed his true colors. When the pressure was on, he backed down on gay rights and agreed to a weak "don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue" policy which was struck down last month by a federal district court as a limit on free speech.

The Republican victory in the 1994 elections has given the conservative Right the false impression that they have a mandate to trample on the rights of gays. They are winning votes and support through fear. They rely on old myths and stereotypes that homosexuals are promiscuous and pedophilic.

These accusations are ludicrous: A study released last year stated that a child's risk of being molested by a heterosexual may be more than 100 times greater than being abused by a homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual. Another myth is that AIDS is a gay disease or that gays are responsible for the epidemic. AIDS affects nine times as many heterosexuals as homosexuals worldwide. It was American gays who brought the disease to the public's attention, not the Reagan Administration, who would not even mention the word AIDS until 1987. And it was gays who lobbied for research money and the distribution of information to the public.

All of this discrimination has hurt young gay teens. Their futures are still uncertain because of various legal and legislative battles across the country. Right now gays are most threatened at the federal level. On the first day of the 104th Congress, Jesse Helms introduced a bill to stop government agencies from using taxpayer funds to "encourage its employees or officials to accept homosexuality as a legitimate or normal lifestyle." Newt Gingrich has promised a hearing on the possibility of withholding federal funds from schools that "promote homosexuality."

Debating gay rights in Congress brings with it the risk that all the progress that has been made on local levels could be erased. Gay rights are a patchwork of different ordinances; therefore, an act that is protected in one state is criminalized in another. The risk is if Gingrich and Helms have their way with instituting anti-gay legislation, it could override local ordinances that protect gays from all sorts of discrimination. Also, the Supreme Court has agreed to review Colorado's Amendment Two decision in Evans v. Romer which affirmed gay rights. This too could put gay rights in jeopardy nationally since the court has a conservative majority.

The Federal level is not the only place gays face jeopardy. Almost any right wing coalition can get an anti-gay initiative on local ballots. The most recent blow to gay Americans came in Montana in late March. The Montana Senate approved with a voice vote a measure that would put gays and lesbians in the same category as violent felons. If this measure passes, gays and lesbians would be required by law to register their location with the state for the rest of their lives. Also, California Governor, Pete Wilson, has changed a state policy so that, starting in March 1995, gay couples can no longer adopt children. Similarly, Nebraska will no longer place children with people who identify themselves as homosexual.

But the news is not all bad for America's gays. In Massachusetts, for example, Governor Weld has formed the Commission of Gay and Lesbian Youth to come up with strategies to stop gay teen suicide. Last year the only two anti-gay initiatives on the ballot were rejected in Idaho and Oregon. Hawaii may soon legalize gay marriages. Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, and Wisconsin have gay rights protections.

The battle for gay rights has always been a Sisyphian struggle: winning rights in one place while losing rights in another. But each battle is important because the fate of 25 million Americans lies in the balance. As Newt Gingrich and his lesbian half-sister show, discriminating against gays usually involves discriminating against one's own friends and family.

If suicide is going to cease to be so high for gay teens, then the country must make spaces in which it is safe to come out. This means removing discriminatory statutes in the workplace, real estate, and the political arena. Activists can still hope that this will be the gay '90s, but the battle for legal and social equality must rage on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The individual stories tell the facts. Maybe I should bring every one of them.

I keep asking you to provide some type of proof as to why they kill themselves. Is that really too much to ask? I have admitted I do not know why they kill themselves. Frankly, I don't think you have any clue either other than the guess you put forth in order to back an argument. But I would really like to see a study in order that I can either support your viewpoint or intelligently argue against it.

Discussing something without facts is kinda stupid, don't you think?


EDIT: Posted before your above post. Thank you for posting the above.

Set, I've come to no conclusions about why they commit suicide. I would assume they do so for many of the same reasons others commit suicide. But this is why I asked for some type of study/documentation from Lash.

I'm sorry if you cannot comprehend that someone who may be against gay marriage can actually want to inform himself about something like this. The reasons that anyone has to commit suicide should be a concern to all, regardless of the sexual orientation of the person committing suicide. I fear you and Lash have greatly misjudged me in some manner.

I've read about this subject in depth. It is the resounding reason given by family and people, who knew the gay suicide victim--and the people themselves, who survived a suicide attempt or changed their mind.

I guess we'll have to go with mathematical probability. Of course, that entails lots of case studies. But there is plenty of first and second person testimonies to pull from.

I can find REAMS of it that support my assertion.

Make your 'intelligent' argument against it.

I doubt that.

I guess "tolerance" on these boards are only for those who agree with y'alls opinions. I guess smart-assed comments are reserved for those who dare ask for documentation for statements made by you. I'm sorry Lash that I ever even asked for proof of your statement. It is nice to know that from now on, I can state anything without having to back it up with proof.

And here I thought these boards were for serious, intelligent discussion. Silly me.

Yes, it's a sad day when you discover gay basing just isn't as popular as it used to be. Probably an omen that the End Times are Near.

I think you know some things are asserted as verifiable fact, and some, as opinion. I can support my opinion, as I told you...

...with testimonies from people involved in suicide by gay teens, as well as gay teens.

If you disagree, say so. Suuport your opinion.

And, if you think that Real Life, who you swooped in here to try to defend, is engaging in serious, intelligent discussion, then I'm quite sorry to know you are cut from her cloth. Sincerely. I never thought of you as one of those.

dys said it better.

yes, yes, I'm quite well known for only engaging in serious, intelligent discussion.

Lash (and Dys), where have I done any gay bashing? Point to it please? Where have I written one word on this thread in support or argument of anything at all? Are you two even capable of reading comprehension?

I did not jump in to "support" Real Life. I jumped in asking for documentation for a comment you wrote. That's it. You have gone from insinuating that I am insincere to now insinuating that I somehow support gay-bashing. Gosh, I really feel the love.

Real Life and CoastalRat,

I rather hesitate to get into the middle of this discussion but I'm rather perplexed at something. How can someone committing suicide be equated with rape, etc. as it being anyone's fault? I don't think they are the same thing at all.

If a person commits suicide, it is that person and that person's alone decision to do so. If someone is raped, murdered, etc., that was someone else's decision. I will wholeheartedly agree that the actions of others can affect someone's emotional stability and cause them great harm, but the decision to take one's own life is just that, one's own decision.

It is not what is done to us in life that matters; it is what we do with what is done to us. I tried the blaming the rest of the world for the rotten things that have happened in my life. It didn't work. I had to take responsibility for my REACTION to life.

There was this english fellow, a writter, a bard if you will, that said something to the effect that no matter how trodden upon the worm will still turn. We know different than that though, don't we? We know that the worm can be so trodden upon that it shall never turn again. We do know that, don't we?

Momma, I think it would be wrong though to state what you do. Yes, it may be an individual's decision to take their own life, but there are often outside influences that lead a person to dispair and push them toward making that decision.

The only thing that I think Lash and I have a possible disagreement on is just how much these outside pressures impact a person's decision. What I would love to see is a study that compare the number of suicides that can be traced directly to society's persecution of gays (whether perceived or real) to the number of overall suicides of gays.

Then I would have some basis for discussing her original statement that prompted my participation here.

RL and CR,

If you are confused about that purple crap, don't be concerned. She's pretending to write to you when she is talking to me. She does that with prayers, too. Neither of you mentioned rape.

I KNEW she hadn't changed about gay people. It was all another drama for attention and pity.

CR,

You are the one who should check reading comprehension.

Point to where you were accused of gay bashing. Didn't happen.

Why don't you just state your case?