Rethinking Homosexuality

I'm going to take it down a notch, CR.

I appreciate your comment above. It showed a decency and human compassion I don't see with RL and MOAN.

I'll take a break from this discussion with you, and attempt it when I'm not so generally pissed at the cruelty I find here.

We escalated accidentally. I apologize for my part in that.

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CoastalRat,

Yes, what happens to us can push us into great despair to the point where we might make a decision to kill ourselves. I cannot and never would deny that.

This is a very difficult issue that society faces. Once we start putting the blame for suicide on other than the individual committing it, are we then going to start prosecuting all those responsible? How would we do that in the case of one person being "gay bashed" by many throughout their life? It's not one particular person that would be responsible but an entire group.

It is true I will not address Lash directly. I have told her I won't. I said I would stay on the topic and that's what I am doing. You can replace "gay bashing" with any issue you want concerning suicide and I would still feel the same way. The very ultimate decision to take one's own life is the person that actually does it.

I am not excusing anyone's behavior in causing pain to anyone concerning this. I think anyone that would hurt someone so terribly they would even think of commiting suicide is a crime. I just don't feel you can put the entire responsibility on an outside source.

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There may very well be a causal relationship between societal pressure and 'gay suicide'.

When I was 13, I was confused about my sexual feelings and was afraid that I might be gay. At that time, half a century ago, I had no way to evaluate the validity of my thoughts and no person I could trust to help me. It was three or four years before I discovered that same sex attractions are common and not a determination of who you are.

Damn, it was a frightening time. I remember contemplating suicide.

All this does not advance the gay rights cause in the least; but it does serve to condemn the gay bashers to their rightful place in the sewers of history.

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MOAN!!!! Look!!!! Laughing

hypocrisy: an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

neo-- Thank you so much for sharing that. That wasn't easy, and I think a lot of you for saying it.

You, at that time, and so many more now, is why I get so bent out of shape in these discussions.

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Neo,

I can't disagree with you on the fact that "bashers" (whether it be gay, sexists, whatever) should be made to understand what they are doing to others. I doubt it will ever completely disappear from society, but perhaps with education and tolerance it will become better. I hope so.

I recently learned how certain views of mine were harmful to others. I am glad that you posted that Neo. It always helps to have someone's personal experience told to you so you can understand the issues better.

I am sorry that you went through that.

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But, if he hadn't survived, MOAN says it would have been completely his fault.

Spread that old time religion around!!!

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Not FAULT. Responsibility. Look it up in the dictionary. They are NOT the same thing.

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Lash wrote:

I'm going to take it down a notch, CR.

I appreciate your comment above. It showed a decency and human compassion I don't see with RL and MOAN.

I'll take a break from this discussion with you, and attempt it when I'm not so generally pissed at the cruelty I find here.

We escalated accidentally. I apologize for my part in that.

No problem Lash. I recognize that for people on both sides of this issue, feelings can be quite strong. Even though I probably come down on the wrong side of the issue as far as you are concerned, I am by no means someone who wishes harm on a person simply because of how they live their life. Gays, like blacks before them, are often made fun of by those who for whatever reason just get off on making fun of someone. To deny that they are often treated with scorn by the small minded of society would be foolish. And I really have no problem believing that this could lead to some small increase in the occurance of suicide among the gay population. I just don't know if a claim can be made that that would be the only difference.

I have often heard that the tendency to suicide is a mental issue. People choose to kill themselves oftentimes for little or no reason at all that can be determined. Those with a tendency to depression kill themselves at a higher rate. So what causes the depression? Often it cannot be pinpointed. Thus I questioned your belief that the greater suicide rate among gays was a direct result of society.

I too apologize if any of my comments contributed to our discussion getting a bit snippish.

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Lash wrote:

I would like to know why people think gay children are killing themselves at such an extraordinary rates.

I can't imagine what they must think.

It's so coldhearted. Have you ever read about one of these children? The horrible teasing, the pile on's, the isolation, parent's embarrassment or worse, total social rejection. Doesn't it break your heart that they'd rather blow their brains out or hang themselves, rather than go to school one more day?

These are children our society has abandoned.

And, you really don't think you know why they kill themselves?

Lash
I'm feeling your frustration and I'm hoping this helps just a tiny bit.

Even though I'm not gay, I went through the same thing in school that you describe here simply because I was fat in my younger years in school. I thought it would stop when I lost the weight, but oh how wrong I was.
Because of the constant non-stop abuse I had to take every single f@ckin day I had to spent in the place I called prison (school), the thoughts of suicide crossed my constantly.
I felt like a trapped and tortured animal with no where to turn.
I begged my teachers, principles, school counsellors, etc to help me, but they didn't give 2 shits about me and did nothing.
The fear I lived with every single day I had to go to school is unimaginable to anyone who hasn't been in my shoes.

So that being said, I think I can safely say that I know exactly why the suicide rate for gay kids is so high.

I'm glad I didn't take my own life and am still here to tell about it.

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If killing oneself were completely a matter of individual choice, woud not all societies, religions and ethnic groups have the same incidence of suicide?

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Ooops. MOAN broke her word again.

That's....the fifth time?

Anyway, I did look it up, and I change my mind. People who are tortured and made miserable, who finally kill themselves ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for the outcome.

If someone is attacked, assaulted, berated, raped and made miserable---it is the fault of the evil jackals that did those things.

If we were talking about a little blond haired girl, who suffered that treatment, and killed herself, your homophobic tune would change.

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Neo,

I don't quite understand what you are saying. But, I think I am being completely misunderstood here. I am not saying that what other people do to others doesn't affect them to the point of wanting to commit suicide. I'm not saying that at all. There are millions of things in life that can lead anyone into despair such as this. Montana just gave a testimony about it.

I sympathize with those that have had this kind of pain in their life. It's horrible. What I am saying is that the final choice is our own. We can either try to get help for our situation or we can end it. Many times suicide is because of mental illness (clinical depression is definitely included).

I tried committing suicide once. I took a handful of pain pills and was out cold for four days. Now, I did it because I was hurting from outside sources, yes. But, I also knew that I could go get counseling, etc. It's true that not everyone may have the option of getting help or tries to get help, like Montana did, and doesn't find it.

I'm not saying what you think I'm saying here. I am saying the final act of taking those pills, putting a gun in your mouth, etc., is an individual's decision. No one made me put those pills in my mouth, though at the time I blamed them for it.

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neologist wrote:

If killing oneself were completely a matter of individual choice, woud not all societies, religions and ethnic groups have the same incidence of suicide?

You'd think so. The last statistics I saw were 25%-30% of suicides are gay. When you think about the relatively small percentage of gay in the population, that staistic screams for attention.

Thanks so much Montana. I don't know what is wrong with our society, that it feeds on some people. I'm so glad that is over for you, and that you survived it.

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Just a thought: If someone is making you miserable because they are unforgiving and continually point out mistakes that you make or your faults or flaws what responsibility does anyone have in that?

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A responsible adult would leave the presence of an abusive person.

Gay people are gay everywhere they go. Every day. All the time.

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I believe in free will, as anyone who has followed my lame brained posts will agree.

I believe the final choice of how we act belongs to us.

But have any of you heard the term 'Hobson's choice'?

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Good call, neo.

Hobson's choice \HOB-suhnz-CHOIS\, noun:
A choice without an alternative; the thing offered or nothing.

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This is exactly what I am talking about. Responsible people.

If someone encounters an abusive person they have choices. You cannot change the behavior of anyone but yourself. Sad, but true. So, we have to learn how to deal with life on life's terms in order to survive day by day.

Being abusive to someone because they are gay is wrong. Being abusive to someone because they do not agree with you is wrong. Being abusive to someone because you do not like them is wrong. The only person that can change the abusive behavior is the abuser.

Society is trying to educate others on this issue. It's going to take time. But, in order for it to become successful, individual's have to change their individual behavior. You can't force anyone to change themselves.

It took a lot of introspection and questioning to get to a point that I understood this issue as I do now. I HAD TO CHANGE ME. No one could change me but me.

Should I then blame my reaction to someone else for the way they are treating me? All I can do is what I've done. Apologize and change my behavior. How that person treats me is COMPLETELY under their control and not mine. How I choose to treat that person is COMPLETELY under my control and not theirs. I cannot blame them for my actions no matter what they do. I never said it was easy and I never said that the other person has no responsibility in the situation.

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CoastalRat wrote:

Set, I've come to no conclusions about why they commit suicide.

Jeeze, i just doesn't sink in with you, does it? I am not referring to the reaons why homosexuals might commit suicide. I am referring to whether or not homosexuals have any significantly greater rate of suicide than other descriptions of persons. The only plausible evidence i have ever seen for rates of suicide are that they are highest in adolescents of any descriptions, and lowest among middle-aged black women. I know of no other demographics on the subject which were plausibly based.

Quote:

I'm sorry if you cannot comprehend that someone who may be against gay marriage can actually want to inform himself about something like this.

I made no comments about your attitudes toward gay marriage, and that is not the topic of this thread, nor has it any type of referrant to my remarks. Therefore, you snotty remark about what you are sorry about does not apply to me--i can comprehend quite well that people who are compassionate or simply just curious might entertain bigoted attitudes towards those who are different, but if has no reference to the remark i made. You are the one here is making assumptions about what others doe or do not believe.

Quote:

The reasons that anyone has to commit suicide should be a concern to all, regardless of the sexual orientation of the person committing suicide. I fear you and Lash have greatly misjudged me in some manner.

The reason someone commits suicide formed no part of my remark, and is, as i've already pointed out more than once, nor relevant. Your fears not withstanding, i did not judge you--i simply made an observation about a possible misunderstanding on your part.

It is noteworthy, however, that when i've not made the least reference to either the causes for someone attempting his or her own life, nor to gay marriage, you hammer on those topics. Perhaps your obsession arises from your own discomfort with the subjects.

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neologist wrote:

I believe in free will, as anyone who has followed my lame brained posts will agree.

I believe the final choice of how we act belongs to us.

But have any of you heard the term 'Hobson's choice'?

Hobson kept an inn on the great north road between London and York. He was well known for keeping an extensive stable of saddle horses, which could be hired as post horses by solitary male travelers--an uncommon service, it had the desired effect of attracting an uncommonly large amount of custom to his inn.

However, Hobson also had the habit of asking a prospecitve post-rider which horse he would like, and then immediately turning to the stable and, selecting a horse himself, saying something to the effect of: "You'd like this one, wouldn't you--yes, that's a good choice."--and then ordering that horse to be saddled for the gentleman, while leading the customer off to the common room to push food and drink upon him, at rather high prices.

Therefore, Hobson's choice is no choice at all. I see that you have the mirror-image of the problem confronting the Presbyterians, who struggle with the doctrine of predestination. In your case, however, you plump for free will, and then deny that free will can be exercised.

You do entertain, though, Boss . . .

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