MOAN---You are clueless. I wish you had the opportunity to 'encounter' one group of asskicking jocks.
How oblivious you are to reality.
Ain't it funny how I am the one being accused of lacking compassion, when I am the one who brought up the fact that suicide was a huge health/safety problem in the homosexual community?
Some responded that there were no significant increased risks among homosexuals.
When I documented the fact that there indeed are, then I'm lacking empathy, etc ???
Go figure.
I've yet to see anyone demonstrate that suicide is not an irrational act.
So my question still is:
How can you claim that anyone except the person committing an irrational act is in any measure, directly or indirectly responsible, to blame , at fault, etc for the comission of an irrational act?
real life wrote:Not all of the Bible is literal. I never said all of it was.
Great.
You are able to decide which is which -- which things in the Bible need to be followed even today and which ones don't. How do you make that decision?
If one is going to accuse others of being abusive for their behavior concerning others then I would think one might keep in mind that perhaps in their accusations and behavior they themselves might appear to be (to others) abusive?
Isn't the whole point that we all need to rethink our own behaviors in dealing with situations such as these? Thunder Runner is rethinking HIS feelings and behaviors concerning homosexuality just as I have recently done. It always starts with one.
When is it crossing the line from educating someone about their behavior to abusing them for it and thereby becoming the very thing we accuse against?
real life, the problem there is the circularity of the argument.
The "health risk" is caused by unhappiness. Your stand -- and that of the many people who think like you do -- increases their unhappiness. Therefore your mindset has a direct bearing on this health risk.
Note, this is not "real life has caused someone to commit suicide." It is, "suicide is directly attributable to the discrimination and abuse of various types that gay and lesbian people encounter from society; therefore if that discrimination and abuse were reduced, suicide rates would be reduced as well. Therefore it is desirable to reduce various types of discrimination and abuse."
Setanta wrote: . . . In your case, however, you plump for free will, and then deny that free will can be exercised.
You do entertain, though, Boss . . .
Mornin' Set.
Always a pleasure to read your posts.
Well, almost always.
I never said free will was impossible. But I will aver that it is often exercised with the greatest difficulty.
Setanta wrote:CR, you seem to miss the point of Lash' question, which is why it is that you have come to the conclusion that a great many homosexuals commit suicide. Why do you believe that, not why do you believe homosexuals who commit suicide do so. (The original post has been corrected for a spelling error in this quotation thereof.)
Your response shows that you are unable to conceive of a circumstance in which your assumption about suicide by homosexuals is not correct.
This is my original post, CR. You must be paranoid to complain about the "tone" of the post. That post makes no assumptions about your attitudes toward homosexuals, it simply suggests that you failed to understand the burden of Lash' post. That was all it entailed, a suggestion that you had misunderstood. I made no assumptions about what you believe. Your complaints about "tone" in that post are purely the products of what is apparently paranoia on your part.
However, it in fact appears that i misunderstood Lash' post, and not you. That is just ironic at this point, though, because you have come roaring back with snot dripping from every line to complain about my "tone" and to defend yourself from accusations which i did not make.
I think you protest too much--my original post was neutral in tone, but i've gotten nasty with you since in just exactly the same degee with which you have responded. And i cannot but wonder just what does motivate you in regard to homosexuals and homosexuality given the degree of hysteria with which you have reacted.
I made no accusations about you and your attitudes toward homosexuality. With each response, however, i wonder more and more at the passion with which
you make
your assumptions.
Good morning, Neo (although its not morning for much longer here).
Aver to your heart's content. The issue of "free will" is a mare's nest of what may or may not impinge upon a person's will to act. In fact, from "nurture to nature," the list of modifiers to one's will is sufficiently long and complexly interrelated, that i have always considered free will to be as chimerical a term as free enterprise.
Of course, none of that consideration on my part is burdened with anyone's contentions about their imaginary friend and what he/she/it does or does not approve of. Personally, i've never had an imaginary friend. I have always been curious, though, to know if those who have had them, or still do, actually see and hear their imaginary friend, or if its more just in the character of a thought exercise.
sozobe wrote:real life, the problem there is the circularity of the argument.
The "health risk" is caused by unhappiness. Your stand -- and that of the many people who think like you do -- increases their unhappiness. Therefore your mindset has a direct bearing on this health risk.
Note, this is not "real life has caused someone to commit suicide." It is, "suicide is directly attributable to the discrimination and abuse of various types that gay and lesbian people encounter from society; therefore if that discrimination and abuse were reduced, suicide rates would be reduced as well. Therefore it is desirable to reduce various types of discrimination and abuse."
Hi Sozobe,
Then why don't we see the HUGE percentage of suicide among blacks who have suffered MUCH greater discrimination and injustice over hundreds of years?
Do you consider suicide to be an irrational act? This is not a circular argument. It is simple cause and effect. If you think it is circular, demonstrate the circular nature of the argument. It cannot be done. So, what's your answer then to the question?
CoastalRat wrote:Lash wrote:They commit suicide because of how society treats them
If society accepted them, it wouldn't happen.
Therefore, suicide by homosexuals is almost exclusively caused by their lack of acceptance.
Would you care to offer support for any of the above statements? Studies? Anything that would give me a reason to consider the validity of your position.
Thanks.
Hello CR,
This post from earlier in this thread seems to answer your question. ehbeth posted it from a World Health Organization publication.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1919505#1919505
ehBeth wrote:Yup, I've read quite a bit of it, and there is information that is relevant.
~~~~
Curious that you identify suicide as a health risk, real life. It's more of an outcome than an actual health risk.
~~~~
Now, there are identified risk factors for suicide for LGBT youth ...
Quote:Risk Factors in GLBT Youth Suicide, compiled by Paul Gibson, L.I.C.S.W.
General: Awareness or identification of same-sex feelings at a relatively early age, sometimes even acceptance of homosexual orientation. Often conflicts with others related to this orientation, and/or problems in same-sex relationships.
Society: Discrimination/oppression of gays and lesbians by society. Portrayals or representations of homosexuals in the society as self destructive or hurtful to others.
Poor Self Esteem: Internalization of society's notions of LGBTs as sick, self destructive, sinful, spreaders of disease, molesters of children, and pathetic.
Identity Conflicts: Denial of same-sex feelings or orientation. Despair in recognition of same-sex orientation.
Family: Perceived or actual rejection, abuse, harassment of child due to LGBT orientation. Child's feelings of failure to meet parental/societal expectations.
Religion: Child's LGBT orientation seen as incompatible with family's religious beliefs in which youths feel sinful or condemned.
School: Harassed and/or abused by peers (and sometimes faculty and staff). Lack of supportive peers and adults, role models, and accurate information about LGBT life in the classroom.
Social Isolation: Stemming from rejection or fear of rejection by peers and family, social withdrawal, loneliness, and inability to meet others like themselves.
Substance Abuse: Substance use to relieve the pain of oppression and loneliness and to reduce inhibitions of same-sex feelings.
Professional Help: Inability or unwillingness to discuss issues related to same-sex feelings, and/or forced treatment to change LGBT orientation.
link
Suicide might not be such an issue for LGBT youth, if the risk factors were addressed.
~~~~~~
Acceptance and support will go a long way.
Sorry, Set. My writing wasn't so swell to begin with--and when I get angry, I'm even less patient to get to my point.
It is quite easy to misinterpret my posts.
I'll attempt to be more careful.
Setanta wrote: . . . The issue of "free will" is a mare's nest of what may or may not impinge upon a person's will to act. In fact, from "nurture to nature," the list of modifiers to one's will is sufficiently long and complexly interrelated, that i have always considered free will to be as chimerical a term as free enterprise. . .
Indeed it is.
It seems almost impossible to get any two folks on this board to agree on what it is.
HarrUmph!
I, of course, have the only correct understanding.
Setanta wrote:Setanta wrote:CR, you seem to miss the point of Lash' question, which is why it is that you have come to the conclusion that a great many homosexuals commit suicide. Why do you believe that, not why do you believe homosexuals who commit suicide do so. (The original post has been corrected for a spelling error in this quotation thereof.)
Your response shows that you are unable to conceive of a circumstance in which your assumption about suicide by homosexuals is not correct.
This is my original post, CR. You must be paranoid to complain about the "tone" of the post. That post makes no assumptions about your attitudes toward homosexuals, it simply suggests that you failed to understand the burden of Lash' post. That was all it entailed, a suggestion that you had misunderstood. I made no assumptions about what you believe. Your complaints about "tone" in that post are purely the products of what is apparently paranoia on your part.
However, it in fact appears that i misunderstood Lash' post, and not you. That is just ironic at this point, though, because you have come roaring back with snot dripping from every line to complain about my "tone" and to defend yourself from accusations which i did not make.
I think you protest too much--my original post was neutral in tone, but i've gotten nasty with you since in just exactly the same degee with which you have responded. And i cannot but wonder just what does motivate you in regard to homosexuals and homosexuality given the degree of hysteria with which you have reacted.
I made no accusations about you and your attitudes toward homosexuality. With each response, however, i wonder more and more at the passion with which
you make
your assumptions.
Set, I admit I have wrongly jumped on you about your original post. Chalk it up to the heat of the moment and let's move on.
As for my post about the tone of your post, I think in my mind I managed to attribute some subsequent posts by another to you and obviously confused myself. There goes perfection for this week. And here I was doing so well. :wink:
Anyway, let's just chalk this up to a misunderstanding on my part. Have a good day.
Thanks for reposting those links, J_B.
I was beginning to wonder if I'd hallucinated about finding that information and posting it here.
I already demonstrated the circularity, real life. What do you dispute?
Point one: gay and lesbians have a high suicide rate. Do you dispute that?
Point two: causes include discrimination/ oppression, internalization of society's notions of their being sick, sinful, spreaders of disease, etc. Do you dispute that?
Point three: you are yourself spewing those notions. (Sick, sinful, spreaders of disease, etc.), and therefore, as per point two, are contributing to the causes yourself. Do you dispute that?
I can do it the other way around, too:
Point one: gay and lesbians have a high suicide rate. Do you dispute that?
Point two: causes include discrimination/ oppression, internalization of society's notions of their being sick, sinful, spreaders of disease, etc. Do you dispute that?
Point three: If discrimination/ oppression is reduced and understanding/ tolerance is increased, the risk factors are reduced and therefore it stands to reason that suicide rates would be reduced. Do you dispute that?
As for black people, first, I don't know if there actually isn't a demographic spike in suicides, especially at certain times in history. But black people have one important difference -- black people are almost always born into black families, and often into black communities. They are able to get support from people just like them from the very beginning. Gay and lesbian people often do not have that when they are most vulnerable. Often the parents are appalled and upset and the teen feels like a failure. The community (especially as represented by their peers, school, etc.) is often the source of oppression and discrimination, rather than a balm.
Meanwhile, you haven't answered the Bible thing, real life. How do you decide what is literal and what isn't?
You do the same CR (have a nice day, that is).
ehBeth wrote:Thanks for reposting those links, J_B.
I was beginning to wonder if I'd hallucinated about finding that information and posting it here.
my pleasure, ehbeth. I thought it was well presented.
sozobe wrote:As for black people, first, I don't know if there actually isn't a demographic spike in suicides, especially at certain times in history. But black people have one important difference -- black people are almost always born into black families, and often into black communities. They are able to get support from people just like them from the very beginning. Gay and lesbian people often do not have that when they are most vulnerable. Often the parents are appalled and upset and the teen feels like a failure. The community (especially as represented by their peers, school, etc.) is often the source of oppression and discrimination, rather than a balm.
Meanwhile, you haven't answered the Bible thing, real life. How do you decide what is literal and what isn't?
Brilliant, soz. I think that's it, as well. They can find support.
Very wonderful work from you with these issues, btw.
homosexual
