A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

The "Kennedy wing of the Republican Party"??? Laughing

Good one, for Gilmore. Uhm - Hunter, sorry, not Gilmore.

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I think it was Hunter.

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Good for Giuliani for stomping down Tancredo on legal immigrants.

McCain too, even if less articulate.

But when he says that "America is still the land of opportunity", and being American means that "you're going to go as far as your ambition is to go", I cant help remembering that intergenerational economic mobility in the US is *lower* than in other countries, than in some of those loathed European countries.

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Immigration, immigration, immigration.. this is a raging forest fire.

But I dont see how it will help them.

Will immigration really be as effective a mobilisation issue for the Republican base as Iraq is for the Democrats? Immigration, Iraq.. doesnt seem like an equal balance of priorities..

Plus, both on Iraq and immigration, the Republican party is divided.

On Iraq, between those who want to get the US ready to pull from Iraq ASAP and Giuliani on the other extreme getting ready to settle there for a decade or two. But on immigration, the divisions are much deeper.

If they mobilise on immigration, they might get the Lou Dobbs vote enthused, but it'll tear the party asunder, no?

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Apart from immigration, the one single thing that struck me most - and scared me:

Giuliani the hawk.

On Iraq and war in general.

But *also*: on free market, wild capitalism. He's the single most dogmatic libertarian ideologue on the economy, far to the right of the rest on that count.

Even than Ron Paul, whose libertarianism focuses purely on leaving things to the states.

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What sounded really weird was when Guiliani was asked the question about the biggest moral challenge to the US in the future, and he started out by listing the "god-given freedoms" (like, uh, press freedom???) and then went on and declared how important it was to export these god-given freedoms to the Middle East.....

Yeah.

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snood wrote:

Nimh, don't the GOP candidates seem to talk more in soundbytes than the Dems did? It might just be me....

Dont know, I didnt see the Dem debate, and reading the transcript is very different..

old europe wrote:

Weird how they're all bashing "Washington"....

In the spin room right now: "Who lost this debate? I think George Bush lost this debate." Exactly.

Weird huh, considering that all of 'em marched in lockstep with the guy for six years..

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Giuliani bitched about how no good news is reported, and said in September there will be good news from Iraq.

Oh, but there will be.. theyll make sure of that.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Stupid TV is in the living room, computer in bedroom, keep running back and forth >

Ha ha, I can just see that!

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This thread is appropriately named. This race appears to be between Rudy and McCain. Ron Paul will see a bump, but he's way to far Left to get any traction. Tommy Thompson makes some sense, but not broadly enough to gain traction.

I don't know if Rudy can really sell his hawkishness... it certainly seems counter to the current American mindset... but beyond that I thought he did the best job up there.

Rudy
McCain
Paul
Romney
a bunch of also appeared
(Tancredo torpedoed himself, IMO)

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Hey, yall, that was fun! Listening/watching the debate while making notes and tapping out first impressions.
Rudi and Romney, it seems to me, didn't plow any new ground. Nothing too contoversial. McCain, in my mind, is still the Bush loyalist, and clinging to the flag and Reagan. I still think he will end up being the first major candidate to be voted off the island.
Huckabee, while having no chance of being nominated, probably gained a few fans. And Paul wasn't quite the wacky libertarion repub that he used to be.

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Rudy Giuliani now in the repeat - hadnt seen it yet, hadnt tuned in back then yet:

"It is inconceivable that, with Saddam Hussein still in power, we could have fought the War on Terror".

Goddamn. He's the one candidate who still repeats over and over the discredited, ideological, Bush talking points.

I mean, Saddam had no substantive link to Al-Qaeda, and now Iraq is Al-Qaeda's recruitment ground # 1!

Giuliani still isnt in the "reality-based community". Scary.

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Its a good thing that Hunter is completely irrelevant, perhaps the single most irrelevant candidate of the lot, because that was pretty scandalous, how he just completely rushed over that poor woman who lost her brother in Iraq.

Just right on rushed into his talking points, then thought again and said, "and incidentally," thank you for your family's sacrifice..

"incidentally"? Shocked

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I gotta admit the whole scene when Giuliani was zapped by the sound of lightning striking right when he spoke about the Catholic bishop's words he disagreed with was really funny. With the others around him moving away from him.

Made them look sympathetic there (uhm, for a moment, ok? dont push it).

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What Rudy really said: (Quite different from what someone here would like you to believe)

"People can only embrace democracy when they have an orderly existence. And we have to help provide that. We didn't want that role, but it is our role. We have to train our military to do it. We should probably have an Iraq-stat program measuring how many people are going to school, how many factories are open, how many people are going back to work. We have to get into the nitty-gritty of putting together an orderly society together in Iraq. It is not too late to do it."

About Gen. Petraeus, he said:

"Suppose Gen. Petraeus comes back in September and reports that things are going pretty well. Are we going to report that with the same amount of attention that we report the negative news?"

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nimh wrote:

Rudy Giuliani now in the repeat - hadnt seen it yet, hadnt tuned in back then yet:

"It is inconceivable that, with Saddam Hussein still in power, we could have fought the War on Terror".

Goddamn. He's the one candidate who still repeats over and over the discredited, ideological, Bush talking points.

I mean, Saddam had no substantive link to Al-Qaeda, and now Iraq is Al-Qaeda's recruitment ground # 1!

Giuliani still isnt in the "reality-based community". Scary.

That, and when he talked about Iran and said "Iran is a nuclear threat. They are the biggest state sponsor of terrorism. They can hand nuclear materials to terrorists." And then went on to link that to the JFK plot (which, incidentally, was not at all linked to Al Qaeda, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Iran, or nuclear materials)......

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I missed the debate (again!) so am just catching up here, nice summary guys! I feel like I know most of the high points, haven't looked anywhere else yet.

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Mind you, considering that the number of illegal immigrants, what?, doubled under GWB? Something like that? I can imagine that its an issue..

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my knee-jerk instant reactions:
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Giuliani --- a strong debater, for sure, but arguing some pretty radical/unpopular positions - so the effect is probably a wash. the only militant Bushite hawk left

McCain -- calm, collected, and principled at times - halting, low-key and old at others. plus, he defended the wildly impopular immigration in bill. might lose out a bit on balance?

Romney -- made no impression on me at all, really.

Brownback -- principled and scrupulous, but too far out

Huckabee -- perhaps the best performance of the night, but not enough to break out of second tier. (perhaps after another three times..)

Tancredo -- extreme!! his performance will be a big hit among a narrow constituency.

Thompson, T. -- loud. bragged a lot.

Hunter -- the most irrelevant of em all

Paul -- loud and very excitable. had a lot of good points, but they wont benefit him. though he might have by now won over some marginal anti-war constituency within the party.

Gilmore -- did a good job of repeatedly claiming that all the frontrunners were no real conservatives. but didnt make much of a claim to himself being a feasible alternative

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Fred Thompson: perhaps the real winner?

The second tier does a good job in taking down the frontrunners, who each are pretty seriously out of the Republican mainstream in their own ways - but not one of em seems able to join the frontrunners themselves. Huckabee, perhaps, over time.. in the meantime, Fred wins, perhaps?

Fred Thompson will be reviewing the debate on Fox - or is doing that now, I think - that should be interesting.. (not that I'll watch).

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realjohnboy wrote:

McCain, in my mind, is still the Bush loyalist, and clinging to the flag and Reagan. I still think he will end up being the first major candidate to be voted off the island.

Unless McCain turns around on the current immigration bill and starts listening to the majority of us who are against it in its current form, he may as well just leave the island on his own.

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sozobe wrote:

I missed the debate (again!) so am just catching up here, nice summary guys! I feel like I know most of the high points, haven't looked anywhere else yet.

We missed you. Repeats still going on CNN.

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I love the real-time stuff, wish I coulda been there. I need to go to bed now, though... will read the transcripts 'n' stuff tomorrow.

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HokieBird wrote:

realjohnboy wrote:
McCain, in my mind, is still the Bush loyalist, and clinging to the flag and Reagan. I still think he will end up being the first major candidate to be voted off the island.

Unless McCain turns around on the current immigration bill and starts listening to the majority of us who are against it in its current form, he may as well just leave the island on his own.

Tall order, considering he authored it. To his credit: He recognizes that 12 to 20 million people (and they're not all good people) WILL remain in the shadows if they're not given an opportunity to remain legally. The "Romney" position ignores this simple fact.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

HokieBird wrote:
realjohnboy wrote:
McCain, in my mind, is still the Bush loyalist, and clinging to the flag and Reagan. I still think he will end up being the first major candidate to be voted off the island.

Unless McCain turns around on the current immigration bill and starts listening to the majority of us who are against it in its current form, he may as well just leave the island on his own.
Tall order, considering he authored it. To his credit: He recognizes that 12 to 20 million people (and they're not all good people) WILL remain in the shadows if they're not given an opportunity to remain legally. The "Romney" position ignores this simple fact.

He can amend the bill. I agree it would take a lot of courage for him to do the right thing. He's abandoned his constituents who realizes (as do I) that this is a country that can do pretty much anything once we set our minds to it.

Another amnesty because we can't find another solution? Doesn't sell.

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I missed the first half hour of the debate, and I also have my rarely used TV in one room and my computer in another. So I was running back and forth and trying to write things down.
McCain and perhaps another said our dependence on foreign oil coud be mitigated by drilling in Alaska and more reliance on nuclear energy, and McCain stated that the solution to a lot of our problems could be solved by controlling spending, and ending earmarking and pork-barrel spending. I suspect all of those are old ideas that will never come to fruition.

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HokieBird wrote:

Another amnesty because we can't find another solution? Doesn't sell.

Yep. The truth is a tough sell. The truth is; anything short of some form of Amnesty is pure BS. 12 to 20 million people will not be rounded up and shipped out no matter how many fools would like to believe otherwise. Not gonna happen. I'd prefer a President with the integrity to admit this obvious (even if unpopular with some) truth. Both McCain and Giuliani demonstrated this integrity. I believe this is one of the issues that will show that moderate Republicans are more popular than the far right. The other alternative for the party, IMO, is a loss in 2008.

Those who wish to pass additional laws that aren't realistic, are essentially advocating more laws that won't be enforced, won't deter illegal immigration and will in effect; make America less safe by maintaining the status quo. If you want to know who's here; you have to give them an incentive to come forward and tell you. Amnesty, in some form, is the only realistic solution.

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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

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