A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

Get with the program, george.

Quote:

In 2002, when those Esquire pieces were running, at one point they decided in the White House that maybe I could be educated. ... I was essentially set up to have a meeting with somebody from the inner circle who was going to tell me things that I ought to understand.

The aide and myself [were talking about] the global news cycles, about the fact that when you send out a message, it gets picked up now by Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya, by news outlets around the world. If that message is strong and coherent, it does alter the landscape. It creates its own kind of tailwind, its own kind of force.

At this point, [the aide] looks at me and says, "You know, Ron, guys like you are in what we call the 'reality-based community.' ... But that's not the way the world really works now. We're an empire of sorts, and when we act, we create our own reality. ... We're history's actors, who are willing to do what's needed, and you can study what we do. And if you start being nice to us --" he says at the end, "-- which you haven't been, maybe one of us will deign to visit you at that seminar you teach up at Dartmouth in the summers, in your tattered tweed blazer."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newswar/interviews/suskind.html

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<Thomas is coming to the Southwest?!!> This is good..

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I thought Southeast!

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There too!

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He's nationwide!!

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ossobuco wrote:

<Thomas is coming to the Southwest?!!> This is good..

Sorry for causing off-topic confusion. To clarify it, I'm flying to San Francisco/Silicon Valley first, then to New Orleans, then driving from there to Raleigh with stops in Montgomery, Huntsville, Atlanta, and Athens. But Albuquerque will definitely be on my next trip, probably in fall, when I drive from Chicago to LA on Route 66.

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So the leading Republican candidate is thrice married, cheated on his wife, a social liberal who got mixed reviews as mayor by the people of NYC. A far cry from the family values based conservativism the Republicans would like to have America think they support.

Good article on him here; good leader, lousy manager.
http://www.slate.com/id/2160285/?nav=navoa

Rudy's strongest point is his leadership during 9/11. Now his 9/11 actions are being questioned.

Quote:

Giuliani faces questions about Sept. 11 "But when he runs on 9/11, I want the American people to know he was part of the problem." Regenhard, at a 2004 commission hearing in Manhattan, screamed at Giuliani, "My son was murdered because of your incompetence!" The hearing was a perfect example of the 9/11 duality: Commission members universally praised Giuliani at the same event.

A November 2001 decision to step up removal of the massive rubble pile at ground zero. The firefighters were angered when the then-mayor reduced their numbers among the group searching for remains of their lost "brothers," focusing instead on what they derided as a "scoop and dump" approach. Giuliani agreed to increase the number of firefighters at ground zero just days after ordering the cutback.

More than 5 1/2 years later, body parts are still turning up in the trade center site.

"We want America to know what this guy meant to New York City firefighters," said Peter Gorman, head of the Uniformed Fire Officers Association. "In our experiences with this man, he disrespected us in the most horrific way."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070330/ap_on_el_pr/giuliani911;_ylt=Ag_iIyrMZ2I.qQ0blQoLh7us0NUE

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Two new good reasons to not support Giuliani:

Rudy Giuliani - flat tax libertarian

Rudy Giuliani - flip-flopper

Quote:

As Forbes Endorses Giuliani, Giuliani Endorses a Flat Tax

One conservative blogger manages to muster up about this much of a defense:

Quote:

My criticisms of Romney have been based on the nature of his metamorphosis. It is not a single flip flop alone, but the number of flip flops, the dramatic lengths he goes to alter his position, the timing of his conversions, and the arrogance with which he has wielded his new found positions as a stick to beat up on his opponents.

I wouldn't hold Giuliani up on a pedestal to be beyond any form of political posturing, but at the same time, at least he hasn't completely remade himself on every issue, and is still willing to stand up and say he disagrees with the conservative point of view sometimes.

Wow. Well, thats OK then..

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On a lighter note, there was also a simple case of Giuliani misspeaking, which could have happened to anyone, when the other day he said on Sean Hannity's radio show, "I support the First Amendment right to carry and bear arms."

Totally innocent of course, but grin-worthy, especially in combination with this commenters' riposte:

"When asked for comment Mr. Rudy says, "I plead the 4th."'

Razz

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Finally - this isn't "Get Rudy Day" or anything, I'm just going through my open windows, thats all - this is more serious again:

Quote:

Giuliani Testified He Was Briefed on Kerik in '00

March 30, 2007
New York Times

Rudolph W. Giuliani told a grand jury that his former chief investigator remembered having briefed him on some aspects of Bernard B. Kerik's relationship with a company suspected of ties to organized crime before Mr. Kerik's appointment as New York City police commissioner, according to court records. [..]

Mr. Giuliani had previously said that he had never been told of Mr. Kerik's entanglement with the company before promoting him to the police job or later supporting his failed bid to be the nation's homeland security secretary.

If Giuliani had been briefed about the dubious ties of Kerik, and appointed the man (who already did not meet the formal qualifications) city police chief anyway, thats pretty damning.

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By the way...Tom Tancredo, a 5 term (ie 10 year) member of the US House of Representatives (R-Colorado) is set to announce on Monday that he is running for President. He claims to have raised $1 million in donations in the last month and, paraphrasing the AP story I read, hopes to rattle McCain's campaign by appealing to conservativies on the issue of illegal immigration and abortion.

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realjohnboy wrote:

By the way...Tom Tancredo, a 5 term (ie 10 year) member of the US House of Representatives (R-Colorado) is set to announce on Monday that he is running for President. He claims to have raised $1 million in donations in the last month and, paraphrasing the AP story I read, hopes to rattle McCain's campaign by appealing to conservativies on the issue of illegal immigration and abortion.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I don't think abortion is going to be all that much of an issue for any candidate who doesn't take a radical position on it regardless of whether he or she is pro life or pro choice.

Perhaps it is past my bedtime, but I don't understand where you are coming from with that statement, Foxfyre.
The religious/right wing of the Republican party is still very strong. An anti-abortion plank in the GOP platform is going to be demanded and can not be ignored by the candidates, even if they want to move towards the center.

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Tancredo is a TOTAL nut.

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Throwing the New Hampshire Union Leader Primary primer in here (again?).

I've been finding it handy for keeping up with the news - and official platforms. Candidates and possible/probables.

(today's choices)

Quote:

This section of UnionLeader.com features news and links focusing on key national Democrats and Republicans as the 2008 Presidential campaign begins to roll.
DEMOCRATS

Sen. Joe Biden
OFFICIAL WEB SITE
POLITICAL SITE
'VOTE SMART' INFO

Wesley Clark
POLITICAL

Sen. Hillary Clinton
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Sen. Christopher Dodd
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

John Edwards
POLITICAL

Al Gore
POLITICAL
DRAFT
'INCONVENIENT TRUTH'

Mike Gravel
POLITICAL

Rep. Dennis Kucinich
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Sen. Barack Obama
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Gov. Bill Richardson
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Al Sharpton
TALK SHOW

REPUBLICANS

Mayor Michael Bloomberg
OFFICIAL WEB SITE
POLITICAL WEB SITE

Sen. Sam Brownback
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART' INFO

John Cox
POLITICAL

Jim Gilmore
'DRAFT' WEB SITE

Newt Gingrich
POLITICAL
DRAFT

Rudolph Giuliani
POLITICAL
PERSONAL WEB SITE

Sen. Chuck Hagel
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'DRAFT'
'VOTE SMART'

Mike Huckabee
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Rep. Duncan Hunter
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Sen. John McCain
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Rep. Ron Paul
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Mitt Romney
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Gov. Mark Sanford
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL

Rep. Tom Tancredo
OFFICIAL
POLITICAL
'VOTE SMART'

Fred Thompson
'DRAFT'
FORMER OFFICIAL SITE

Tommy Thompson
FORMER OFFICIAL SITE
POLITICAL

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sozobe wrote:

Tancredo is a TOTAL nut.

Until I left Colorado, Tancredo was my congressman, he is far worse than a nut.

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dyslexia wrote:

sozobe wrote:
Tancredo is a TOTAL nut.
Until I left Colorado, Tancredo was my congressman, he is far worse than a nut.

What is far worse than a nut?

The implication is that he is, in some way, sinister.

Is this what you mean?

Care to offer some foundation beyond the sage bon mots of Gabby Dys?

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realjohnboy wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

I don't think abortion is going to be all that much of an issue for any candidate who doesn't take a radical position on it regardless of whether he or she is pro life or pro choice.

Perhaps it is past my bedtime, but I don't understand where you are coming from with that statement, Foxfyre.
The religious/right wing of the Republican party is still very strong. An anti-abortion plank in the GOP platform is going to be demanded and can not be ignored by the candidates, even if they want to move towards the center.

I think the religious Right or any other of the Right is going to vote for the candidate who holds the most of their views unless that person is especially radical on an issue that is a deal breaker. Giuliani, for instance, is pro choice, but he is not radically so. He doesn't make a big deal about it either way. And if the vote was today and he was the GOP candidate, many if not most of the religious Right would vote for him.

Likewise many pro choice Conservatives voted for George Bush who is quite adamently pro life, but not radically so to the point that he made anybody fear he would go charging in to overthrow Roe v Wade.

Abortion is one of many issues that is important to many people, but I don't think its going to be a deal breaker for any candidate in the next election any more than it was in the 2000 or 2004 elections.

Yes, the religious Right will want a pro life plank in the Republican platform just as the radical Left will demand a pro choice one in the Democrat platform. That does not mean a pro life Democrat cannot win, however, any more than a pro choice Republican cannot win.

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I see your point, Foxfyre. We are up to something like 8 or ten Republican candidates. The battle for the nomination will be the big issue in the coming months and I think that the religious right and the conservative right see themselves as being marginalized as some of the candidates move more towards the center. They are not happy about that and will nibble hard at the heels of any candidate who heads that way.
I think the battle for the Repub nomination is more fascinating than the one for the Dems.
Will the "rightists" (my abbreviation) still vote for whomever the Repub nominee ends up being? Probably, but you could, I say you could, see a "Take back America" third party candidate running under the flag of anti-abortion, pro-gun, bring religion back and anti-immigration.

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I think if you take a look at Foxfyre's posts in favor of Giuliani, you see what the Religious Right is really about these days. Their boy Bush is flopping big time, so they are willing to part with their priniciples in order to maintain some claim of choosing the nominee, especially one who has the potential to win in 2008.

In 1996, they gave only limited support to Bob Dole, because Dole wasn't their man and while they preferred he win, they were really looking to taking over the party in 2000. They didn't consciously sacrifice Dole, but their eyes were on 2000. But that was when they were in their heyday of power.

They dare not do that again. They got their man Bush in and they know their influence is waning along with his popularity. They are in no position to pull power plays. Instead, it looks like they are looking for the strongest candidate, whatever his positions on their favorite issues, and will try to claim as much of his loyalty as they can in his climb to the top.

Ahhh, politics.......

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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

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