Information control, or, How to get to Orwellian governance

Cyclops, I think this discussion demonstrates that with exchange of ideas, we probably do not differ that much. Perhaps not so easy with Setanta, however. He claims I have a chip on my shoulder. I don't think so. My main point, which I think he misunderstands, is that I firmly believe our culture has lost their appreciation for what we do enjoy, and what is involved in bringing it to us, and therefore a disconnection from reality. Frankly, I am tired of people criticizing business, corporations, you name it, because they aren't living well enough in their opinion, or the rich people have it all. Call it a chip on my shoulder, but I don't think so, I am simply trying to bring people to the reality of how well we live, even poor people, and thank the people that make it possible. By waking ourselves up to this, we can save ourselves from making some very costly political decisions as a society.

If plainoldme and others like her think yesterday was better, then they can get rid of their car as you have done Cyclops, maybe ride a horse to work if they want to, or at least a bicycle, raise their own produce in a garden, and make alot of their own stuff, including their own clothing. Its a free country. Yes, I thought the 50's was a grand time as well, and I might miss it because I did not have the worries of making a living and being a kid again is carefree and I thought fun. However, we now live in a very grand time, with many wonderful things we enjoy.

I guess it all boils down to attutude. I think we live in a wonderful country. I love it and think we need to defend it, including all that makes it wonderful, and that includes business and free enterprise.

Frankly, I am tired of people criticizing business, corporations, you name it, because they aren't living well enough in their opinion, or the rich people have it all.

There are a few different arguments rolled together here, but mostly I would say that the problem is that businesses and corporations, while doing their part to advance technology, have also done damage to the American way of life by re-defining what it means to be happy and sucessfull. The idea of people as Consumers is a dangerous one, an idea that I don't support at all, yet our business models rely upon it.

Our current economic system is a form of economic feudalism; those at the top reap the vast majority of the benefits from the work done by those at the bottom. It represents a holdover from an older economic system as we transition into a newer system which is more equitable and has an eye on more than just profits for companies. One of the things which has lead to the rise of thoughtless, careless companies who only are concerned with the bottom line is the current setup of our stock market; unfeeling, unconcerned with anything but profits, our system is designed to produce the greatest successes for the companies who committ the greatest crimes against our way of life; companies which spend too much ensuring that they don't pollute, or who pay good wages, or who provide good health care and retirement for their employees, are called 'inefficient' and lose out on investment to those companies who do none of those things.

This will have to change in the upcoming years. One of the primary reasons for this is the advent of the internet; it is much, much more difficult to hide or pretend not to notice the environmental, societal and human impact of your behaviors as a company. Hopefully we can get to the point where citizens, 'consumers' and investors alike will realize that the cheapest possible price on a product often comes with a much higher, delayed price to our way of life and environment.

The major argument between our schools of thought lies in the question of whether or not the Govt should step in to accelarate this process or not. I say that they should, in grand fashion; many ecnomic conservatives say that we shouldn't. But that's what makes arguments fun, right?

Cycloptichorn

Business owners can be good stewards of what they make their living from.

Bye, I guess, if you really must. But why don't you come out to Oklahoma, maybe Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, Wyoming, etc. out to the real world instead of the symphony hall and find out how we folks live and work? You might broaden your thinking a bit beyond the shackles of your uppity liberal surroundings. Get out of academia for a while and get acquainted with reality. Go help milk some cows, load a few bales of hay, plow a field, maybe butcher a beef or two. Come watch them cut wheat during harvest time. Go to a drilling rig and talk to the driller for while. Follow a logger around for a day or two or tour a coal mine in Wyoming. Break out of your liberal ignorance and bigotry concerning what other hard working people do to make your life comfortable.

I can think of few things as stupid as thinking that only the rural areas of the nation are where "real life" takes place, unless it were to assert that only cities are where "real life" takes place. Either point of view is stupid and parochial.

I find it interesting, the Conservative viewpoint that the higher educated one is, the less they understand about 'real life.'

Cycloptichorn

However, I am simply attempting to bring some balance to the debate here. Otherwise, you educated libs think you have a monopoly on intelligence and the right way of doing things.

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I never met this newspaper's previous proprietor, although I worked as his literary editor on the Daily and Sunday Telegraphs. He once tried to stop me employing a reviewer who had criticised the foreign policy of Henry Kissinger (then a Hollinger director). Grateful to have a chairman who read these pages, I invited Black to review books in areas where he clearly had an interest (The Oxford Book of Canadian Military Anecdotes). Connoisseurs of his prose have likened it to a medieval siege engine and the act of reading it to "wading through wet cement" (Max Hastings), but he had an intelligence and a style, and it got him off my back.

Good points, Cyclo. We've had enough of the Enrons, Worldcoms, Tycos, and those cheaters who backdate stock options.

cicerone imposter wrote:

Good points, Cyclo. We've had enough of the Enrons, Worldcoms, Tycos, and those cheaters who backdate stock options.

You have just demonstrated a very important point, cicerone. Are those people in business now as before, and have some gone to jail?

Has anyone in government gone to jail recently for the billions the GAO cannot account for? And the fraud and incompetence continues unabated. In the free market, there are checks and balances. In government, there is no choice. We have to buy their product even if it is lousy and fraudulant.

You can say thanks to your team of Stalwart Republicans, who have shot down every attempt at oversight possible for the Iraq war.

Government has checks and balances too, but when one party is completely corrupt, and they get control of the government, it doesn't work.

completely corrupt

Quote:

completely corrupt

I agree, Thomas, that neither party has a patent on corruption; but there is little doubt which party is pro-big business, pro-free trade, pro-big oil, and has reflected this in their policies and lack of oversight.

Also, while I agree there have been times when Dems were more corrupt in the past, there is little doubt that the current crop of Republicans are far, far deeper in the pockets of people they shouldn't be then the Dems.