2
   

Information control, or, How to get to Orwellian governance

 
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 11:20 pm
old europe- I am very much afraid that you have either watched too much TV or are in favor of immediate "justice" on the spot. The Islamo-Fascist fanatics are not hampered by idiocies such as "the rule of law" and TV programs solve thier problems in less than an hour.

For your perusal, Old Europe---

http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.1280,filter.all


Quote


Military Tribunals on Trial: Hamdan v. Rumsfeld

On March 28, the Supreme Court took up the case of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld to determine the permissibility of the Bush administration's plan to use military tribunals to try senior al Qaeda leaders. In 2004, D.C. Court judge James Robertson ruled that the proposed military tribunals violated international law, a decision subsequently overturned in 2005 by the Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. What are the legal issues being contested in the case? How is the Supreme Court likely to rule? Are the military tribunals of enemy combatants consistent with U.S. obligations under the Geneva Conventions? What will the implications of the ruling be for the Bush administration's legal theory of the global war on terror? Bradford Berenson and Daniel Collins, who filed a brief with the Supreme Court on behalf of Citizens for the Common Defense, met to discuss these issues at a March 23 AEI panel discussion.

Bradford Berenson
Sidley Austin LLP

On November 13, 2001, President Bush issued a military order authorizing military tribunals to try war criminals associated with al Qaeda. Mr. Berenson worked at the White House as associate counsel at the time so was able to share firsthand knowledge about the process and policy considerations.

The genesis of the order was the attacks of September 11, 2001. It became clear that the United States would take custody of al Qaeda soldiers and needed a way to handle them. The policy needed to be decided with urgency, as the United States was already at war with al Qaeda. The White House found an answer rooted in the laws of war for unlawful combatants: war crimes charges could be brought through military tribunals.

Mr. Berenson argued that there were several important advantages that military tribunals hold over civil trials. First, that military tribunals ensure the physical security of the courtroom and the safety of the judges and jurors. Second, military tribunals can be faster and more efficient than civil trials and can be located outside of the United States if necessary. Third, military tribunals are much more apt in handling and protecting classified information that inevitably arises in war trials. Finally, and most importantly, military tribunals have more flexible rules with regard to evidence, allowing heresy and testimony acquired by coercion. The White House concluded that the option to try unlawful combatants by military tribunal was an important tool for the president to have in the war on terror. At the time, Mr. Berenson and the White House counsel anticipated that the decision would eventually be considered by the Supreme Court.

Mr. Berenson felt optimistic that the government would prevail in the Hamdan case.

Daniel Collins
Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP

Salim Ahmed Hamdan was Osama bin Ladin's personal driver, even after the attacks of September 11, 2001. Mr. Collins argues that this makes Mr. Hamdan an ideal candidate for trial by military tribunal. The Supreme Court case on March 28, 2006, considers whether the president had the Constitutional power to issue an order establishing military tribunals in general, to issue such an order in this particular conflict, and to order a tribunal for Mr. Hamdan. Mr. Collins argued that the president did not need Congressional approval for his November 13 order. There is precedence in the United States for such presidential power: in 1780, the traitor Benedict Arnold was brought by President George Washington in front of a "board of general officers" for his war crimes. Such tribunals were widely used during the Civil War, the Spanish American War, and most famously, during World War II for the eight Nazi dissidents who plotted an attack on American soil.

Mr. Hamdan argues that his crime of conspiracy is not eligible to be tried by military tribunal. Further, he claims that the United States' tribunal procedures are not valid. He also argues that the protections of the Geneva Convention should be applied or that Mr. Hamdan should not be held liable by its rules for combat. Finally, he claims status as a prisoner of war; such prisoners cannot be tried by military tribunal. Mr. Collins rejects most of these claims, siding with the government's arguments that it has the precedent and presidential power to establish such tribunals and that Mr. Hamdan's crimes qualify him to be tried. Mr. Collins and Mr. Berenson jointly filed an amicus brief in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld in which they outline the history of presidential use of military tribunals, hoping to establish precedent for the Court to support President Bush's actions.

In the Hamdan case, the Supreme Court faces a wide variety of issues. Mr. Collins thought it likely that the justices would side with the government, possibly for reasons of jurisdiction.

End of quote


Both Bradford Berenson and Daniel Collins, highly trained attornies, agree that the government's side will prevail and that the US will be allowed to use military tribunals in cases such as Hamdan's.


It appears, Old Europe,that you are not aware that the wheels of justice sometimes move slowly. But, in the USA, justice is done and when it is found that someone has been unjustly imprisoned, that person usually receives some kind of reparation.

The Islamo-Fascist fanatics give reparation at the end of a sword!!!
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 11:43 pm
I am very much afraid that Mr. Acquiunk, in his fervor to make a point has made some egregious errors.

He says: "THE BUSH APPOINTED SUPREME COURT HAS DECIDED TO SWEEP AWAY..."

Seven of the Supreme Court Justices were not appointed by President Bush. President Bush has appointed, with the consent of the Senate, ONLY TWO justices---Judge Roberts and Judge Alito.

I really must inform Mr. Acquiunk that although one may be opposed to the decisions made by the USSC, they become the law of the land.
I am certain that Mr. Acquiunk is aware that there are millions of Americans who are opposed to Roe Vs. Wade. That is unfortunate. Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land. And now, so is Hudson V. Michigan.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 06:02 am
I suggest we simply ignore the previous poster whenever he appears. His game loses its reason for being when he is completely ignored and gains its reason for being when he is engaged by others.

It won't matter if some who agree with his ideas/techniques engage him as it is conflict and disruption which he seeks.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 06:59 am
Quote:
About the National Security Archive

An independent non-governmental research institute and library located at The George Washington University, the Archive collects and publishes declassified documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. The Archive also serves as a repository of government records on a wide range of topics pertaining to the national security, foreign, intelligence, and economic policies of the United States. The Archive won the 1999 George Polk Award, one of U.S. journalism's most prestigious prizes, for-in the words of the citation-"piercing the self-serving veils of government secrecy, guiding journalists in the search for the truth and informing us all."



Quote:
CIA Claims the Right
to Decide What is News

Archive Sues to Break FOIA
Fee Barrier for Journalists

Washington D.C., 14 June 2006 - The National Security Archive today filed suit in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia against the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), challenging the Agency's recent practice of charging Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) fees to journalists pursuing news. The FOIA says that "representatives of the news media" can be charged only copying fees since they help to carry out the mission of the law by disseminating government information; but the CIA last year began claiming authority to assess additional fees if the Agency decides any journalist's request is not newsworthy enough. In adopting this new practice, the CIA reversed its prior 15-year practice of presumptively waiving additional fees for news media representatives, including the National Security Archive.

"The CIA takes the position that it should decide what is 'news' instead of the reporters and editors who research and publish the stories," explained attorney Patrick J. Carome of the law firm Wilmer Hale, who is representing the Archive. "If the CIA succeeds in exercising broad discretion to charge additional fees to journalists, despite the plain language of the law, then too often we will find out only what the government wants us to know."

"Today is the day that federal agencies are turning in their FOIA improvement plans under President Bush's Executive Order for a more 'citizen-centered' and 'results-oriented' FOIA system. But the CIA has taken the opposite approach, and is instead trying to close off use of the FOIA by journalists," commented Archive General Counsel Meredith Fuchs.

In 1989 the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit recognized the Archive as a representative of the news media that cannot be charged for searches for records requested under the FOIA. The next year, the United States District Court for the District of Columbia held the CIA "must treat plaintiff as a 'representative of the news media' within the meaning of" the FOIA. For over 15 years, the CIA, like other federal agencies receiving FOIA requests from the Archive, abided by these decisions. Since these decisions, the Archive's news media activity has expanded dramatically, and its journalistic work has received numerous awards, including most recently the 2005 Emmy Award for Outstanding Achievement in News and Documentary Research.

Suddenly, in October 2005, the CIA changed its practice and began to require the Archive to meet a new test for what information qualifies as "news." The CIA demanded that the Archive show that its requests for records meet several criteria that are not found in the FOIA itself, specifically, that the requests "concern current events," "interest the general public," and "enhance the public understanding of the operations and activities of the U.S. government." Among the requests that the CIA determined did not concern "current events" were two requests for biographical documents relating to members of the Taliban in Afghanistan and documents regarding the development of U.S. policy in Afghanistan in the five months before President Carter authorized U.S. aid to the Mujahadeen opposition to the Soviet-backed Afghan regime. The CIA rejected the notion that information about U.S. knowledge regarding the Taliban and the rise of Muslim fundamentalism in Afghanistan could result in "news." And although the CIA determined that FOIA requests about NAFTA and illegal Mexican immigration could result in "news," it rejected the idea that President Clinton's 1993 meetings with President Salinas on the subject could result in "news."

"This policy is a clear attempt to prevent journalists from getting information out to the public," said Archive Director Thomas Blanton. "Given the timing - when the intelligence community is under serious scrutiny about its activities - this appears to be an effort to shut down the growth of a vibrant public debate in the print, broadcast and online communities."

link
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 07:52 am
Corporate media ownership map...2006

http://www.thenation.com/special/2006_entertainment.pdf
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 05:29 am
Quote:
Those of us cleared to cover the prison and war-crimes tribunal learned long ago that there will be a hard-fought battle for every factlet. When unexpected news breaks, like the suicides, the Pentagon's knee-jerk reflex to thwart coverage reminds me of how Communist officials used to organize Cold War-era propaganda trips for Moscow correspondents but then pull the plug when embarrassing realities intruded.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-williams18jun18,0,3393296.story?coll=la-home-commentary
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 12:19 pm
Good old affiliative, warm-hearted Bernie. He seeks no disruption at all!

Glad to see you back - and in good form too!
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 02:02 pm
I am of the opinion that the erudite Mr. Blatham, having been skunked decisvely by me in the past, is afraid to try to rebut my arguments. His pomposity is only exceeded by his pusillanimity.

Poor Mr. Blatham!!!
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 02:06 pm
Perhaps it was really too much information for Mr. Blatham to digest. I will repost i

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
old europe- I am very much afraid that you have either watched too much TV or are in favor of immediate "justice" on the spot. The Islamo-Fascist fanatics are not hampered by idiocies such as "the rule of law" and TV programs solve thier problems in less than an hour.

For your perusal, Old Europe---

http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.1280,filter.all


Quote


Military Tribunals on Trial: Hamdan v. Rumsfeld

On March 28, the Supreme Court took up the case of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld to determine the permissibility of the Bush administration's plan to use military tribunals to try senior al Qaeda leaders. In 2004, D.C. Court judge James Robertson ruled that the proposed military tribunals violated international law, a decision subsequently overturned in 2005 by the Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. What are the legal issues being contested in the case? How is the Supreme Court likely to rule? Are the military tribunals of enemy combatants consistent with U.S. obligations under the Geneva Conventions? What will the implications of the ruling be for the Bush administration's legal theory of the global war on terror? Bradford Berenson and Daniel Collins, who filed a brief with the Supreme Court on behalf of Citizens for the Common Defense, met to discuss these issues at a March 23 AEI panel discussion.

Bradford Berenson
Sidley Austin LLP

On November 13, 2001, President Bush issued a military order authorizing military tribunals to try war criminals associated with al Qaeda. Mr. Berenson worked at the White House as associate counsel at the time so was able to share firsthand knowledge about the process and policy considerations.

The genesis of the order was the attacks of September 11, 2001. It became clear that the United States would take custody of al Qaeda soldiers and needed a way to handle them. The policy needed to be decided with urgency, as the United States was already at war with al Qaeda. The White House found an answer rooted in the laws of war for unlawful combatants: war crimes charges could be brought through military tribunals.

Mr. Berenson argued that there were several important advantages that military tribunals hold over civil trials. First, that military tribunals ensure the physical security of the courtroom and the safety of the judges and jurors. Second, military tribunals can be faster and more efficient than civil trials and can be located outside of the United States if necessary. Third, military tribunals are much more apt in handling and protecting classified information that inevitably arises in war trials. Finally, and most importantly, military tribunals have more flexible rules with regard to evidence, allowing heresy and testimony acquired by coercion. The White House concluded that the option to try unlawful combatants by military tribunal was an important tool for the president to have in the war on terror. At the time, Mr. Berenson and the White House counsel anticipated that the decision would eventually be considered by the Supreme Court.

Mr. Berenson felt optimistic that the government would prevail in the Hamdan case.

Daniel Collins
Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP

Salim Ahmed Hamdan was Osama bin Ladin's personal driver, even after the attacks of September 11, 2001. Mr. Collins argues that this makes Mr. Hamdan an ideal candidate for trial by military tribunal. The Supreme Court case on March 28, 2006, considers whether the president had the Constitutional power to issue an order establishing military tribunals in general, to issue such an order in this particular conflict, and to order a tribunal for Mr. Hamdan. Mr. Collins argued that the president did not need Congressional approval for his November 13 order. There is precedence in the United States for such presidential power: in 1780, the traitor Benedict Arnold was brought by President George Washington in front of a "board of general officers" for his war crimes. Such tribunals were widely used during the Civil War, the Spanish American War, and most famously, during World War II for the eight Nazi dissidents who plotted an attack on American soil.

Mr. Hamdan argues that his crime of conspiracy is not eligible to be tried by military tribunal. Further, he claims that the United States' tribunal procedures are not valid. He also argues that the protections of the Geneva Convention should be applied or that Mr. Hamdan should not be held liable by its rules for combat. Finally, he claims status as a prisoner of war; such prisoners cannot be tried by military tribunal. Mr. Collins rejects most of these claims, siding with the government's arguments that it has the precedent and presidential power to establish such tribunals and that Mr. Hamdan's crimes qualify him to be tried. Mr. Collins and Mr. Berenson jointly filed an amicus brief in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld in which they outline the history of presidential use of military tribunals, hoping to establish precedent for the Court to support President Bush's actions.

In the Hamdan case, the Supreme Court faces a wide variety of issues. Mr. Collins thought it likely that the justices would side with the government, possibly for reasons of jurisdiction.

End of quote


Both Bradford Berenson and Daniel Collins, highly trained attornies, agree that the government's side will prevail and that the US will be allowed to use military tribunals in cases such as Hamdan's.


It appears, Old Europe,that you are not aware that the wheels of justice sometimes move slowly. But, in the USA, justice is done and when it is found that someone has been unjustly imprisoned, that person usually receives some kind of reparation.

The Islamo-Fascist fanatics do not wait for justice to be done. They behaed their enemies in two or three weeks at the most.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am very much afraid that Mr. Acquiunk, in his fervor to make a point has made some egregious errors.

He says: "THE BUSH APPOINTED SUPREME COURT HAS DECIDED TO SWEEP AWAY..."

Seven of the Supreme Court Justices were not appointed by President Bush. President Bush has appointed, with the consent of the Senate, ONLY TWO justices---Judge Roberts and Judge Alito.

I really must inform Mr. Acquiunk that although one may be opposed to the decisions made by the USSC, they become the law of the land.
I am certain that Mr. Acquiunk is aware that there are millions of Americans who are opposed to Roe Vs. Wade. That is unfortunate. Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land. And now, so is Hudson V. Michigan.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 03:47 pm
"It does not matter whether the war is actually happening, and, since no decisive victory is possible, it does not matter whether the war is going badly. All that is needed is that a state of war should exist."

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/orwell_goldstein_1984.html
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 05:10 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
Those of us cleared to cover the prison and war-crimes tribunal learned long ago that there will be a hard-fought battle for every factlet. When unexpected news breaks, like the suicides, the Pentagon's knee-jerk reflex to thwart coverage reminds me of how Communist officials used to organize Cold War-era propaganda trips for Moscow correspondents but then pull the plug when embarrassing realities intruded.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-williams18jun18,0,3393296.story?coll=la-home-commentary


Just so you know,the US military has the right to kick ANY civilian off of any base run by the US.
There is no "right" for any reporter to be on any base,let alone Gitmo.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 05:34 pm
On the other hand, if Carol Williams were a homosexual male hooker who could be relied upon to ask easy questions of the people in charge, they'd gladly give her access to any base, including Gitmo.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 05:36 pm
kelticwizard wrote:
On the other hand, if Carol Williams were a homosexual male hooker who could be relied upon to ask easy questions of the people in charge, they'd gladly give her access to any base, including Gitmo.


Dont most of the people that fit that description live in the Northeast US and Silicon Valley Ca?
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 05:39 pm
Apparently not.

What, you never saw Deliverance?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 05:41 pm
kelticwizard wrote:
Apparently not.

What, you never saw Deliverance?


No,never had any interest in seeing it.


But I did go see "cars" last night with my GF and her 11 year old son.

GREAT movie.
I reccommend it!!!
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 05:49 pm
I'll probably wait for the DVD, then. For some reason, we never do get around to going to movie theaters. We just rent.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 05:17 am
mysteryman wrote:
kelticwizard wrote:
Apparently not.

What, you never saw Deliverance?


No,never had any interest in seeing it.


But I did go see "cars" last night with my GF and her 11 year old son.

GREAT movie.
I reccommend it!!!


My daughter and I are longtime Lasseter fans so went to see this movie on opening day. We agreed that for the first time (for us) the latter of Lasseter's two key strengths (technical mastery and story telling ability) was disappointing in this case. Relative to Toy Story, for example, the characters are flat and the storyline unusually trivial.

But visually, technically and in the portrayal of american car culture, it can be just stunning.

A side issue of consequence is something we will have to contend with fairly shortly. There are scenes in Cars that are so visually realistic (huge detailed panoramas which the observer is moving through) that it becomes apparent how close we are to being able to create absolutely realistic visuals which, of course, never happened.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 07:12 am
The prime example of Orwellian logic.


We can hold the prisoners in Guantanamo indefinately because they are POWs under the Geneva convention.
We can ignore the Geneva convenction for the Guantanamo prisoners because they are not POWs.

Just change the argument to suit the question. When questioned about not charging claim they are POWS, when questioned about lack of POW status claim they are criminals.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 02:24 pm
"It does not matter whether the war is actually happening, and, since no decisive victory is possible, it does not matter whether the war is going badly. All that is needed is that a state of war should exist."

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/orwell_goldstein_1984.html
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 03:09 pm
So tell me, Amigo and Bernie, which is real--Carol William's article or Orwell's Emmanuel Goldstein? Does anyone really know and does it really matter after all these years? Kafaesque Catch 22--will we be able to find our way out when 2008 comes along?
0 Replies
 
 

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