The 'N word' briefly revisited

sozobe wrote

Quote:

My read on this stands -- while there are certainly points to be made about white privilege, and while Chris Rock scored in a general, exaggerated, comedian-speak way, there are things about that statement that break down at the pure language level. It doesn't make sense.

soz

Absolutely the wrong standard here. Your protest (or what I take it to be at least) is applicable in a scholarly academic piece or in analytic philosophy, but not in comedy or in literary art. For example:

"I am at two with nature." Woody

"Those who see any difference between soul and body have neither." Wilde

"Nothing is so ignorant as a man's left hand, except a lady's watch." Twain

Add in just about any poetic metaphor ever composed. The "sense" made is not the sort of "sense" you demand.

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deb said

Quote:

Huh? Sure...nobody has to tell me about the power of words.

And I get the joke.

My cavil was about all paleskins having angst about "not being able to" use the word.

Who exactly has angst?... who the hell but an idiot wants to all people that? Where's the angst, except amongst people who bathe and delight in their prejudices and ignorance?

Well, in the same manner as "teens are more dangerous drivers than folks in their 40s" is a statement which is generally true only, it is still "true" in that broad sense. As I just tried to point out to soz, comedy often deals in such broad categories, or exaggerations, or characterizations.

A white comic who has often addressed racial issues (and used the term "nigger" in a manner which has not offended blacks - none that I know of, at least) is George Carlin. It's interesting to consider why his uses have been humorous and not offensive, and, as I see it, socially beneficial. Amnesia, I'd argue, is not beneficial.

In any case, as snood has clarified more fully his understanding of the joke and the generality involved, perhaps we are all getting near to the same page.

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Never saw a poll how blacks received Lenny Bruce use of the word.

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Now, that IS an interesting corner to this discussion, edgar!

Quote:

"This man is the eighth wonder of the world. You have to go back to Mark Twain to find anything remotely like him. And if they don't kill him, or throw him in jail, he's liable to shake up this whole fuckin' country." ---Dick Gregory

Quote:

"Are There Any Niggers Here Tonight?"

"Oh, my god, did you hear what he said? Are there any niggers here tonight? Is that rank! Is that cruel! Is that a cheap way to get laughs? Well, I think I see a nigger at the bar talking to two guinea owners and next to them....Now why have I done this? Is it only for shock value? Well, if all the niggers started calling each other nigger, not only among themselves, which they do anyway, but among others. If President Kennedy got on television and said:'I'm considering appointing two or three of the top niggers in the country to my cabinet'-if it was nothing but nigger, nigger, nigger- in six months nigger wouldn't mean any more than good night, god bless you...-when that beautiful day comes, you'll never see another nigger kid come home from school crying because some ************ called him a nigger."
---Lenny Bruce

http://www.comm.unt.edu/histofperf/hebenstriet/Meredith_generic_intro_page.htm

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lenny was a kike. (The word kike was born on Ellis Island, when Jewish immigrants who were illiterate (or could not use Roman-English letters), when asked to sign the entry-forms with the customary 'X,' refused -- and instead made a circle. The Yiddish word for 'circle' is kikel (pronounced KY - kel), and for 'little circle,' kikeleh. Before long the immigration inspectors were calling anyone who signed with an 'O' instead of an 'X' a kikel or kikeleh or kikee or, finally and succinctly, kike.

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There's a lovely bit of history of a term which I didn't know at all. Thanks, big fella.

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David Howard, the white director of a Washington D.C. municipal agency [..] told his staff that, in light of budget cutbacks, he would have to be "niggardly" with funds. An uproar followed that resulted in Howard's resignation, which was accepted by Mayor Anthony Williams on the grounds that Howard had shown poor judgment.

Even some of the commentators who admitted that they knew that "niggardly" has no relation to "nigger" (the origins of the first word predate those of "nigger" by about 300 years) still condemned Howard. They were answered by the columnist Tony Snow, who wrote, "David Howard got fired because some people in public employ were morons who

a) didn't know the meaning of the word 'niggardly'

b) didn't know how to use a dictionary to discover the word's meaning and

c) actually demanded that he apologize for their ignorance

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A couple of decades past, my new girlfriend took me to task for using the verb "jew" (as in to get the lowest possible price). Her first husband has been jewish and she had adopted his reasonable sensitivity to that usage. I'm embarrassed to admit I had not, until that point, thought about it. Our family had commonly used the term, without racist sentiment but also without reflection. Not ten minutes later, girl friend used the term "gyp" as in to cheat. The tables turned, and she got embarrassed.

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blatham is anti-semetic.

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Since moving to New York, I've had four people stop me to let me know how much I look like Spielberg. Two weeks ago, at a conference of psychoanalysts (easily 70% present were jewish), it took me a full minute to convince one attendee that I my heritage was otherwise. I'm considering conversion just to cut down on unnecessary conversation minutes.

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snood said:

Quote:

For sure, that is so. And equally true, Bruce's "proposal" is unrealistic if understood literally. And I also understand that if I, or Carlin, or Bruce use the n word, we do so with some peril of looking patronizing or like wannabe blacks (a very funny Carlin routine) and making matters worse rather than what we'd hope It's complicated stuff. Dick Gregory's statements about Bruce are relevant, but one would also expect particular affinity between or amongst comics, perhaps particularly comics working in the US at a time of social and racial upheaval. Oh well, bravely on, trying to fukk up no more than 49% of the time.

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Snood, the "right now" was that I have never used the word directed at someone (I have used it incidentally, as in "I think the word 'nigger' is too emotionally charged for me to be comfortable using it"), and have no intentions of doing so in the future. If I can be convinced that something valuable would come out of my doing so -- as per some of the things Blatham has said that you have agreed with -- I might. I am not currently convinced, but my mind is open.

That's all.

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blatham wrote:

Since moving to New York, I've had four people stop me to let me know how much I look like Spielberg. Two weeks ago, at a conference of psychoanalysts (easily 70% present were jewish), it took me a full minute to convince one attendee that I my heritage was otherwise. I'm considering conversion just to cut down on unnecessary conversation minutes.

This happens to me all the time too. People looking at our wedding picture who hadn't met me would say to my husband - "Oh, you married a nice Jewish girl." He'd say, "No, she was raised Southern Baptist." He'd tell me they'd look at him like they didn't believe him ( although rather guiltily, and I'd never tell my parent this, but I always took that as a compliment - I was happy I didn't look or act Southern Baptist). And then when I was living in Durham, NC there was a Jewish man who lived across the street from me who invited me to his Seder. I said, "Oh yeah, I'd love to come." He said, "Well I know you're a long way from home and there aren't a lot of us around these parts, so we have to take care of each other." I just looked at him blankly - he asked, "You are Jewish, aren't you?" I said, "No, but can I still come to your Seder?" This was almost twenty years ago. To this day he sends me a Hannukah card as our little ongoing joke.

Snood - I don't have tv - so I have no idea what Chris Rock said on Oprah - although I was surprised to think that he'd advocate using the word, taking into account what I have seen of him. I've seen the book, The N Word, though I've not read it, but I haven't heard anything about the movie at all. Is it a documentary - how is it available? At this point, unless I can rent it on DVD, I can't see it (I'm in England-black and white is not so much the issue over here right now as Muslim and everyone else), although I'll be in the US for three weeks in April, so maybe I can pick it up or even see it if it's in theaters. Can you let me know?

Edgar - I'm with you. I've never felt like I've had or wanted any power over other people, (when I say whites - I mean historically and as a politically powerful group - I don't mean every white person by any means). And I agree, in terms of public use of the n-word, blacks are in a position to lead the way on that issue

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aidan wrote:

blatham wrote:
Since moving to New York, I've had four people stop me to let me know how much I look like Spielberg. Two weeks ago, at a conference of psychoanalysts (easily 70% present were jewish), it took me a full minute to convince one attendee that I my heritage was otherwise. I'm considering conversion just to cut down on unnecessary conversation minutes.

This happens to me all the time too. People looking at our wedding picture who hadn't met me would say to my husband - "Oh, you married a nice Jewish girl." He'd say, "No, she was raised Southern Baptist." He'd tell me they'd look at him like they didn't believe him ( although rather guiltily, and I'd never tell my parent this, but I always took that as a compliment - I was happy I didn't look or act Southern Baptist). And then when I was living in Durham, NC there was a Jewish man who lived across the street from me who invited me to his Seder. I said, "Oh yeah, I'd love to come." He said, "Well I know you're a long way from home and there aren't a lot of us around these parts, so we have to take care of each other." I just looked at him blankly - he asked, "You are Jewish, aren't you?" I said, "No, but can I still come to your Seder?" This was almost twenty years ago. To this day he sends me a Hannukah card as our little ongoing joke.

Snood - I don't have tv - so I have no idea what Chris Rock said on Oprah - although I was surprised to think that he'd advocate using the word, taking into account what I have seen of him. I've seen the book, The N Word, though I've not read it, but I haven't heard anything about the movie at all. Is it a documentary - how is it available? At this point, unless I can rent it on DVD, I can't see it (I'm in England-black and white is not so much the issue over here right now as Muslim and everyone else), although I'll be in the US for three weeks in April, so maybe I can pick it up or even see it if it's in theaters. Can you let me know?

Edgar - I'm with you. I've never felt like I've had or wanted any power over other people, (when I say whites - I mean historically and as a politically powerful group - I don't mean every white person by any means). And I agree, in terms of public use of the n-word, blacks are in a position to lead the way on that issue

Aidan, the movie is on DVD - that's how I watched it.

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i've been trying to figure out how to contribute to this thread. the use of the word has been a puzzlement to me for most of my life.

it's use between black folks is nothing new. it isn't a phenomenon or artifact of mtv. not even a genuine hip hop or rap development. the only thing new in it's use by rappers and hoppers is that where as now it ends in a sound like "ughhhhh", back in the day, it came off more like "errrrrrrr". it's just sort of out there. some blacks use it liberally. others are driven to anger by it.

in 1973, i got into a local r&b band called "sensations". we played clubs and tons of "cabarets", which were basically a scene where a social club would rent out a local meeting hall and have long tables end to end with tons of food, drink and getting loose with a live band. generally, the jewish bass player and myself were the only white folks in the building. it was a total blast. nothing but tons o' fun and a killer musical education in blues, r&b, soul, reggae (before it was much known in the u.s.), funk and a little gospel thrown in.

at the first rehearsal, i was shocked by the way the word was getting tossed around. so i was like, "i thought you guys hated that sh*t. what's up with that ???". that got a pretty good laff. the singer said he had a way for me to get a little more inside it and handed me an 8track by pryor; "that nigger's crazy". one of the most hilarious records i've ever heard. still listen to it once in a while. but the use of the word, "nigger", still has me wonderin'.

so i was trying to really understand it. i was talking to my friend, derrek, and i said, "say man, what's up with the "nig-gerrrrrr" thing ??". ummm, not a good scene. derrek detested the word and even more so when it was used towards him by another black person. even though we were running partners and he knew how i felt about stuff, for a second he got that look that a person gets when you've offended them to the core. it passed as quick as it appeared and we talked.

i don't remember his exact words, but in effect he said something like, "only fools that hate themselves get into that sh*t". since i had never felt that any of the bloods in the group hated themselves i asked him, "well then they must be just foolin' around. should i just get into it ? am i supposed to say it too, to kinda fit in ?" the last question really got him laughing. guess i had my answer.

fast forward 30 years.

working at a studio that specialized in the proverbial "gangsta rap". now the word was in nearly every sentence with these guys. "niggugh this", "niggugh that".

as bruce thought, after a week or so, i ceased to even notice it. or at least i thought i had.

some even used the word with me. one being coolio, who walks in and says "yo niggugh, lemme use your phone".

but there was a difference that i noticed. whereas i had always gotten a more or less good natured vibe before, the word and the way it was being directed was anything but good natured. these guys did seem to hate themselves; and everyone else too. it was a very bad scene full of racism, hate and violence.

in an interview, george harrison was trying to explain about tm. he mentioned that when repeated over and over in chant form, words lose their meaning. the word he used in example was f^%k. "just keep repeating it and it will lose all form". true enough. it will indeed lose any meaning; to you.

to your mom ? umm, well she's still gonna melt down if she hears you. lifebouy, anyone ?

the word "nigger" does have a meaning. a quite potent meaning. it should not be used unless you care to impart that meaning.

if you use it to describe yourself or your peeps, you are taking on that stereotype.

if you, as a white, use it to describe black folks, you are taking on the stereotype that whites are saddled with.

does america really need another 400 years to get past this stuff ? there must be other things we could be doing that are more uplifting.

i feel the same way about phrases like "blue eyes", "devil", "viking", "cracker" and that old school gem, "ofay".

all of this **** just gets in the way and slows us down.

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Yeah, like can' t we all just get along?

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snood wrote:

Yeah, like can' t we all just get along?

it's not like i'm saying that it's like "snap your fingers and everybody's gonna love one another". it's person by person, day by day. if people of good will take personal responsibility and start with something simple like, " i'm not going to hate today", there's hope.

if enough people do this, eventually the hardcores will be left on their own. and they will eventually die out.

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

snood wrote:
Yeah, like can' t we all just get along?

it's not like i'm saying that it's like "snap your fingers and everybody's gonna love one another". it's person by person, day by day. if people of good will take personal responsibility and start with something simple like, " i'm not going to hate today", there's hope.

if enough people do this, eventually the hardcores will be left on their own. and they will eventually die out.

I'm probably gonna embarrass myself here bigtime, but you know what - I'm used to doing that - so what the hell- I'll just stay true to form and come out and say what I feel and tell you that what you just wrote (whether you mean it sincerely or not) is what I live my life hoping will happen. I wake up everyday praying for a miracle, and go to sleep everynight disappointed that it hasn't happened yet. Lately, I've even been crying when I read the newspapers sometimes, because everything I read just seems to indicate the world is getting further and further away from how I dream of it being-and I'm getting older and I'm almost to the point that I have come to believe it won't happen in my lifetime- and that's a big loss , the realization that something I really believed could happen probably won't and sometimes I feel that I am literally grieving- almost as if a loved one of mine that I've known my whole life is dying.

I have a friend who says to me - "Aidan - you have this vision that we're all just gonna hold hands and stand around singing "Kum bay yuh" (or however you spell it) and I hate to break it to you - but it just aint gonna be that way". And all I can ask is - "Why not?"- because I need to believe it can happen, for my kids, if for no other reason.

Anyway - now I know there's at least one other person who has the same hope for the world. Thanks for expressing it - and on Valentine's Day, no less.
So, no hating here today - Happy Valentine's Day Everyone - wishing you all only love and peace in your life - Aidan

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The 'N word' briefly revisited

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