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The 'N word' briefly revisited

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 03:31 pm
Personally, I have no desire to use the word nigger with ease, or in any other way.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 03:33 pm
Lash wrote:
panzade wrote:
I was raised in segragation country-Virginia in the 60's

My mother taught illiterate blacks to read through the Laubach Literacy program. My folks marched for civil rights. I was raised to eschew and despise the n word.I still do. I don't care if it's cool and I sidle away from those that use it.

Blacks and whites?


Thanks for picking up on my vagueness Lash.. No, it doesn't bother me when blacks use it. Who knows...perhaps I'm a hypocrite..that's just me.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 03:46 pm
The movie that inspired this thread is called "The N Word". It was very interesting and even enlightening in some ways.

It has appearances in it by Levar Burton, George Carlin, Chuck D, Whoopi Goldberg, Bryant Gumbel, Quincy Jones, Wynton Marsalis, Dr Alvin Poussant, Michael Rappaport, and others.

I highly recommend it to those of you who don't already know everything there is to know about it.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 04:39 pm
I already know everything there is to know about it.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 04:50 pm
I'm going to go out and check it out tonight if I can find it or get it on netflix.

San Antone thats a rough town yea snood?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:24 pm
Dys=Iconoclast
Iconclast=One who attacks and seeks to overthrow traditional or popular ideas or institutions.
One who destroys sacred religious images.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:26 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Dys=Iconoclast
Iconclast=One who attacks and seeks to overthrow traditional or popular ideas or institutions.
One who destroys sacred religious images.

Wait, that's me, ceptin I like Jesus.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:29 pm
Definitely don't use it with ease. In fact, that's the other part of the "rankles" thing that doesn't make sense, as a general statement -- I never think of using it and then back off of it because I "can't." If I'm mad at someone, a whole lot of other expletives/ pejoratives come to mind, but not that one.

If a case is made that I should be using it to rob it of it's power or something, I'd carefully consider it and maybe even end up doing it, but can't quite imagine it. No way it would trip off the tongue.

Snood, I just don't get why you'd want to go to PMs for snide remarks that come directly out of an on-thread discussion, personally. If it's to get around the TOS, it's creepy. I don't actally think the remarks were TOS-violating, and I'm not reporting it or anything, I just don't see the point. Maybe it allows you to try to rile me up without antagonizing your supporters here or something, I dunno.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:31 pm
I don't like to hear the N word used at any time, but especially not by whites and by blacks in the presence of whites.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:37 pm
sozobe wrote:
Do you agree with this, snood?

blatham wrote:
But I went a bit further too, and argued that this inversion/disarming would be assisted if folks like me (white, straight, male) who shared the loathing for the earlier uses of the terms, began to use them (sparingly, pointedly) in the same ways as the minority communities were coming to use them.


That white people should use "nigger" (if sparingly, and pointedly) in the same ways as black people use it?


Soz - I know I'm not Snood and I'm also not black, but I feel compelled to make a distinction here. If you think about it - the black people who freely use "the n word" are mostly younger folks who've come up post civil rights who've never had it directed at them with accompanying hate and dehumanization. They're imitating what they hear - and yes they use the term among themselves because it doesn't hold the same meaning that it does for older black people who lived through segregation and Jim Crow in the US. I don't know about you - but I've never heard a black person over forty use the n-word to describe him or herself or anyone else because they're the ones who had to live through what whites meant when they used that word.

No - whites shouldn't use the word. Neither should blacks. But just because some of them do - and it is a very specific age demographic that uses it - what does that have to do with what you or I or anyone else does- especially if we know it's wrong?

And my own personal belief is that it is wrong to use it. I have seen wonderful, dignified people dehumanized by that word. When my son was seven years old one of his white friends called him a "nigger" (he's interracial). He asked me what it meant because he'd never heard it before, but he knew it was negative - he instinctively knew it was bad (yeah, maybe because of the tone that was used, but I also think it just sounds ugly. I told him - "Nothing- it doesn't mean anything. It's a stupid word and only stupid people use it. If someone says that to you - you don't have to listen to anything else they say - because they're not worth listening to." Even my daughter who was three at the time - instinctively rebelled against it. Before I even responded to my son she said- vehemently - "I hate that word."

And I do too - it's a nasty word with a nasty history - and it should be retired. It's hurt too many people to ever be used casually - especially by whites- my question is - why would whites even want to use it - unless they just want to be difficult - or as Chris Rock said - feel entitled in some way.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:43 pm
Aidan, a sociologically astute post (i.e., the demographic aspect).
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:44 pm
Oh, I agree with pretty much all of that, especially the parts about whites using it.

It's what I thought Chris Rock and snood thought too -- I dunno about Chris Rock, but snood seems to be saying that it can be used by whites, which surprised me.

I can see more of a case for blacks using it -- it's a case Chris Rock has made many times, most recently on Oprah I think. A reclaiming/ disempowering sort of thing.

I'm wary of outlawing any word, just because that automatically gives it power.

But that doesn't mean I'll be using it any time soon (see my most recent post, above).
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:49 pm
I wish I could remember the quote. I think it was from a founding father or a revolutionary figure.

...something about he'd give [everything he had] for charity, but he'd fight [not to give a thing] under duress.

That's how I feel about this word, and several other things, actually.

I chose to take a stand about using the word 'nigger' when I was a teen. <Old timers may go to the bathroom now, I'm sure you've heard this ad nauseum...> I think it's stupid. I think if you want to insult a person, say why. But, as soon as I was told I couldn't say it, I began to say it. Not referring to anyone (but close friends in jest). When newspapers started using asterisks when the word itself was being discussed, I began to think it was more important to say it, than not to.

I would still, by my own choice, not refer to a person in anger or description by that term. It's still stupid.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:52 pm
We don't have to do anything else to give it power. What I'm saying is it HAS power- really, really negative power - and I've seen the way it hurts people.

A word can't be outlawed - that I know of anyway - but people can just flat out refuse to use it - and from what I've seen of what this word can do to people - it's just something I would never say- no matter who else was saying it for the same reason I'd never say faggot or dyke - because there's no good reason to.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:56 pm
Yep, I agree, aidan. That's my default position. I plain don't use it.

Blatham brought up the majority purposely using the problematic word in the same way the minority uses it -- the part included in what you quoted from me -- and snood has indicated agreement with that, and I'm open to being convinced that there is some value in using it in particular ways for particular ends. Not there yet, but open to it.

Right now, plain don't use it. Certainly not directed at someone.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 10:48 pm
sozobe wrote:
Yep, I agree, aidan. That's my default position. I plain don't use it.

Blatham brought up the majority purposely using the problematic word in the same way the minority uses it -- the part included in what you quoted from me -- and snood has indicated agreement with that, and I'm open to being convinced that there is some value in using it in particular ways for particular ends. Not there yet, but open to it.

Right now, plain don't use it. Certainly not directed at someone.


"Right now", huh?

Geez. I agreed with what Blatham said, and that was not just that "whites should use the word." You have insanely selective comprehension, Sozobe. You choose to nitpick semantics, convolute and obfuscate and dance around the simple central point, rather than just say you disagree, and go on about your business. I think the whole subject gives you a major burr in your britches, myself. That point being (as Chris Rock said) that whites get mad at not being free to use the word because they are used to being able to do what they want.
0 Replies
 
LionTamerX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 11:08 pm
snood,
Given it's history, the "N" word should put a burr in all of our britches. Or better yet, an acorn in our front yard.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2006 01:57 am
sozobe wrote:


I can see more of a case for blacks using it -- it's a case Chris Rock has made many times, most recently on Oprah I think. A reclaiming/ disempowering sort of thing.



I hate to say it - because I love Chris Rock - I think he's just about one of the most observant, astute people on the planet - and funny as hell to boot - but I think he's being disingenuous if he's advocating the use of this word. Maybe because he's taken heat for using it himself, and he's a conscientious and thinking man so he feels obligated to defend his actions by portraying them as calculated - which is something we've all probably done at one point or another.

But I'll tell you why I think it's an empty defense. I think it's in Bring the Pain or its sequel that he does a bit about the fact that there are "n****s and there are normal black folks. Then he describes the behavior of "n*****'s. And the behavior he's describing has nothing to do with the fact they're black - it has everything to do with the fact that they're just trifling people - so by his description - which I believe- a person of any race could act like a n****, which I totally buy.

But sadly our society hasn't gotten to the point where it can make that discernment- they don't look at whites as n***s, they don't look at any other race but blacks as n***s- and the majority of us are just not mature enough to handle it as Chris Rock wants it to be handled. And I think he knows that - or maybe he's just risen to the point where people of all races kiss his ass - so he doesn't remember what it feels like to be separated out and treated like a "n***.

There's also the issue of internalized oppression, which affects a lot of these young men (mostly), who are using this term for themselves. It's like I told my students who tried to use this term in my classroom. "If you want to empower yourself, call yourself kings or something - at least around me- I can't stand to hear you degrade and demean yourselves by negating everything except one single essence of your being by applying that label to define who you are. Too many other people are more than willing to do that to you- don't do it to yourselves." And they respected me enough to never say that word in my presence because I asked them not to. I just don't agree that desensitizing our children to this nastiness, like we've desensitized them to violence, and just about every other negative aspect of our culture can be positive or productive.

Chris Rock has a little daughter. Maybe the first time someone who doesn't know who her father is calls her a n*** or treats her as such, he'll sing another tune. And maybe we'll hear about it - because I think he's a big enough man to admit his mistakes.

*And Snood - I agree that whites don't like to be told what they can and can't do - and I agree we feel entitled - I know anytime I've been subjected to discrimination, I've been absolutely shocked, while I've watched blacks deal with it as just another part of their day, but truthfully, at this point, that's the stance of every American - "don't tell me what I can and can't do" - it aint just whites anymore who get rankled by directives.

The issue is more about who we think we are - the fact that I'm white is not an important part of my own view of myself (although I know it has made my life easier in so many ways) because it's never been a cause of worry or pain. It's not a negative issue, in fact, quite the opposite.

I think minority populations are much more protective (and proud- by the way) of their racial heritage because it has historically been made a negative issue by the majority- they're never allowed to forget what race they are and I think they're tired of having who they are explained and defined by whites, so they don't even want the words to describe who they are co-opted by whites who have no idea what it means to be them.

And I think Chris Rock is right- whites in the US are used to making the rules and telling everyone else who they are and where they belong on the food chain that determines what they can and can't do, so they get pissed when they can't anymore because minority populations have started making decisions for themselves.
Why else would there be so much discussion about whites even wanting to use what they know is a historically disgusting and degrading term? To me it's just another example of "us vs. them - if they can do it, then why can't we?" When I get beyond the silly juvenile nature of the whole thing - it's truly saddening to me. It's just one more example of how we'll use any issue to keep ourselves on different sides of the fence- instead of trying to understand where the other people might be coming from.

Anyway - that's how I see the whole issue (after lots of thought and discussion with folks who use the term for themselves).
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2006 06:02 am
I guess that's why the word never had power over me. I was never in a position to make or enforce rules. Browbeaten to the point of living subliminally in most areas of living, the so called angst never touched me. Today, I loathe that word and, like a few other responders here, will have nothing to do with it and little to do with those whites who do use it. THe blacks are the ones to decide this word's fate. I wish they would lose it also, but that's just me.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2006 06:57 am
aidan wrote:
sozobe wrote:


I can see more of a case for blacks using it -- it's a case Chris Rock has made many times, most recently on Oprah I think. A reclaiming/ disempowering sort of thing.



I hate to say it - because I love Chris Rock - I think he's just about one of the most observant, astute people on the planet - and funny as hell to boot - but I think he's being disingenuous if he's advocating the use of this word. Maybe because he's taken heat for using it himself, and he's a conscientious and thinking man so he feels obligated to defend his actions by portraying them as calculated - which is something we've all probably done at one point or another.

But I'll tell you why I think it's an empty defense. I think it's in Bring the Pain or its sequel that he does a bit about the fact that there are "n****s and there are normal black folks. Then he describes the behavior of "n*****'s. And the behavior he's describing has nothing to do with the fact they're black - it has everything to do with the fact that they're just trifling people - so by his description - which I believe- a person of any race could act like a n****, which I totally buy.

But sadly our society hasn't gotten to the point where it can make that discernment- they don't look at whites as n***s, they don't look at any other race but blacks as n***s- and the majority of us are just not mature enough to handle it as Chris Rock wants it to be handled. And I think he knows that - or maybe he's just risen to the point where people of all races kiss his ass - so he doesn't remember what it feels like to be separated out and treated like a "n***.

There's also the issue of internalized oppression, which affects a lot of these young men (mostly), who are using this term for themselves. It's like I told my students who tried to use this term in my classroom. "If you want to empower yourself, call yourself kings or something - at least around me- I can't stand to hear you degrade and demean yourselves by negating everything except one single essence of your being by applying that label to define who you are. Too many other people are more than willing to do that to you- don't do it to yourselves." And they respected me enough to never say that word in my presence because I asked them not to. I just don't agree that desensitizing our children to this nastiness, like we've desensitized them to violence, and just about every other negative aspect of our culture can be positive or productive.

Chris Rock has a little daughter. Maybe the first time someone who doesn't know who her father is calls her a n*** or treats her as such, he'll sing another tune. And maybe we'll hear about it - because I think he's a big enough man to admit his mistakes.

*And Snood - I agree that whites don't like to be told what they can and can't do - and I agree we feel entitled - I know anytime I've been subjected to discrimination, I've been absolutely shocked, while I've watched blacks deal with it as just another part of their day, but truthfully, at this point, that's the stance of every American - "don't tell me what I can and can't do" - it aint just whites anymore who get rankled by directives.

The issue is more about who we think we are - the fact that I'm white is not an important part of my own view of myself (although I know it has made my life easier in so many ways) because it's never been a cause of worry or pain. It's not a negative issue, in fact, quite the opposite.

I think minority populations are much more protective (and proud- by the way) of their racial heritage because it has historically been made a negative issue by the majority- they're never allowed to forget what race they are and I think they're tired of having who they are explained and defined by whites, so they don't even want the words to describe who they are co-opted by whites who have no idea what it means to be them.

And I think Chris Rock is right- whites in the US are used to making the rules and telling everyone else who they are and where they belong on the food chain that determines what they can and can't do, so they get pissed when they can't anymore because minority populations have started making decisions for themselves.
Why else would there be so much discussion about whites even wanting to use what they know is a historically disgusting and degrading term? To me it's just another example of "us vs. them - if they can do it, then why can't we?" When I get beyond the silly juvenile nature of the whole thing - it's truly saddening to me. It's just one more example of how we'll use any issue to keep ourselves on different sides of the fence- instead of trying to understand where the other people might be coming from.

Anyway - that's how I see the whole issue (after lots of thought and discussion with folks who use the term for themselves).


Aidan - Rock didn't advocate using the word. Suggestion: rent the movie, The N Word. It's interesting.
0 Replies
 
 

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