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In Support of Muslims: Denmark Cartoons

 
 
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 07:26 pm
Okay, the Muslim reaction to the cartoons of their prophet isn't good. But, and this is where I am on their side:

Although the cartoons were published months ago, it wasn't until other countries-- France specifically, decided to publish the cartoons in the name of free speech.

France outlawed, a while ago, any form of traditional dress among all races that would indicate their religious affiliation. That meant Muslims had to dress their way-- or pay. Okay, that's their squashing of freedom of speech, freedom of dress, etc. Now they turn around and publish the cartoons and say it's freedom of speech.

Granted, Islam has not caught up with the modern world, however, a bit of sensititvity to their plight is in order.

What are your opinions about this?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 4,358 • Replies: 67
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 09:37 pm
I have seen greeting cards with a picture of Jesus on the front and the caption "Jesus loves you". Open the card and it says "Everyone else thnks you're an a$$hole". I don't see the Christians getting all bent of of shape and threatening to kill the world over it.
0 Replies
 
Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 09:48 pm
NickFun wrote:
I have seen greeting cards with a picture of Jesus on the front and the caption "Jesus loves you". Open the card and it says "Everyone else thnks you're an a$$hole". I don't see the Christians getting all bent of of shape and threatening to kill the world over it.



"cept George! But then he ain't no Christian is he?

Hi NIck!
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chichan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 11:31 pm
NickFun wrote:
I have seen greeting cards with a picture of Jesus on the front and the caption "Jesus loves you". Open the card and it says "Everyone else thnks you're an a$$hole". I don't see the Christians getting all bent of of shape and threatening to kill the world over it.


There have been some pretty horrific political/anit-religious swipes taken at ole Jesus, but I can't see how this is one of them, NickFun.
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freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 04:27 am
Quote:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sitelogos/Guardian.gif

Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons

Gwladys Fouché
Monday February 6, 2006


Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have caused a storm of protest throughout the Islamic world, refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ, it has emerged today.

The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny.

In April 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons dealing with the resurrection of Christ to Jyllands-Posten.

Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."

The illustrator said: "I see the cartoons as an innocent joke, of the type that my Christian grandfather would enjoy."

"I showed them to a few pastors and they thought they were funny."

But the Jyllands-Posten editor in question, Mr Kaiser, said that the case was "ridiculous to bring forward now. It has nothing to do with the Muhammad cartoons.

"In the Muhammad drawings case, we asked the illustrators to do it. I did not ask for these cartoons. That's the difference," he said.

"The illustrator thought his cartoons were funny. I did not think so. It would offend some readers, not much but some."

The decision smacks of "double-standards", said Ahmed Akkari, spokesman for the Danish-based European Committee for Prophet Honouring, the umbrella group that represents 27 Muslim organisations that are campaigning for a full apology from Jyllands-Posten.

"How can Jyllands-Posten distinguish the two cases? Surely they must understand," Mr Akkari added.

Meanwhile, the editor of a Malaysian newspaper resigned over the weekend after printing one of the Muhammad cartoons that have unleashed a storm of protest across the Islamic world.

Malaysia's Sunday Tribune, based in the remote state of Sarawak, on Borneo island, ran one of the Danish cartoons on Saturday. It is unclear which one of the 12 drawings was reprinted.

Printed on page 12 of the paper, the cartoon illustrated an article about the lack of impact of the controversy in Malaysia, a country with a majority Muslim population.

The newspaper apologised and expressed "profound regret over the unauthorised publication", in a front page statement on Sunday.

"Our internal inquiry revealed that the editor on duty, who was responsible for the same publication, had done it all alone by himself without authority in compliance with the prescribed procedures as required for such news," the statement said.

The editor, who has not been named, regretted his mistake, apologised and tendered his resignation, according to the statement.
guardian


This ends the claim that this is a free-speech issue.
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Cliff Hanger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 07:47 am
NickFun wrote:
I have seen greeting cards with a picture of Jesus on the front and the caption "Jesus loves you". Open the card and it says "Everyone else thnks you're an a$$hole". I don't see the Christians getting all bent of of shape and threatening to kill the world over it.

I've seen that in bumper sticker format. I laughed for a long time. I once told that phrase "Jesus loves you..." to a convenience store owner who sold t-shirts that said, "Show me your Tits", and "Your Mom is Cute", when he heard it, he was mortally offended. Bizarre.

I said already, their reaction is less than favorable, Islam has not yet adapted to the modern world-- nonetheless, I believe it is the responsibility of modern cultures to negotiate them into the modern world.

I'm not saying this will be easy, but derogatory cartoons are simply inflaming the situaltion.
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Cliff Hanger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 08:06 am
freedom4free, thanks for the article.
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:39 am
freedom4free wrote:
This ends the claim that this is a free-speech issue.


No it really doesn't.

Jyllandsposten did a story on some left of the left professor who had had written a childrensbook on islam, but was upset, because noone would illustrate his book for fear of getting their throats slit. This lead the paper to do a story about the dangers of self censorship imposed because of fear of violent retribution from fanatics. They also requested drawings of the prophet from a number of cartoonists, to see if they would succumb to self censorship.

The cartoonists who answered the challenge are now in hiding, as they have recieved hundreds of death threaths. That sort of proves that the question Jyllandsposten raised was a valid on no?

This was about censorship being imposed by vigilantes, in violation of danish law. Since Christians are known to pose no such threath in Denmark, your story misses the point. Also the twelve cartoons were solicitde by the paper, this guys work wasn't.

And before you claim that the paper should have printed the stuff just to proove themselves fair, think about the mountain of lousy offensive crap that would then be flooding the papers mailboxes in an attempt to "prove them hypocritical". The paper might as well draw the line at once.


Pictures found three quarters down this site
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:58 am
CliffHanger,

I do understand the Muslims being offended. I completely understand that. What I do not understand is why such a drastic reaction to these cartoons? How does threatening to behead anyone that threatens their god do anything but instill in the world an even harsher vision of Islam? I am sure that everyone realizes that not all Muslims are the same. At least I hope they do.

This has got to stop. How, I don't know. I just know that everyday more and more are getting angrier and angrier over these cartoons and the repercussions the world is now feeling. In the long run, was this expression of freedom of speech worth it? I don't think so. I'm not saying they did not have the right to publish the cartoons mind you. They did have that right. I am at such a loss about all of this.

Although the Muslims are offended, what good is what they are doing now? What is it doing but angering people? What is it doing but hurting everyone? What is it going to take to stop this?
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:05 am
It turns out the editor who originally publshed the "offensive" Muslim cartoons is a disciple of Daniel Pipes and the "clash of civilizations" theory put out by Project for a New American Century. PNAC is the outfit that called for a "Pearl Harbor event' in order to initiate a global war against the Muslim world.

Cartoon editor Fleming Rose and the tentacles of PNAC
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:06 am
It's both ways, though, a perfect storm of hot-button-pushing.

Many Muslims think the West is corrupt, evil, and bent on taking over/ eradicating Islam. A lot of current events lend themselves to that interpretation -- invasion of Iraq on flimsy pretenses and what has happened since, etc.

So their hot button is that we do not respect their way of life and want to eradicate it. The cartoons were profoundly disrespectful, all for existing (it is very important to their faith that Mohammed not be depicted -- think of the importance of not desecrating a cross, say) and some for content. They were intended to be disrespectful. It's not that the people who drew them or published them had no idea what a serious offense it was. The fact that it was a serious offense was the point.

So, sure, it gets a reaction. But meanwhile, our hot buttons are that Muslims are violent and irrational, and unfortunately the reaction plays into that.

And around it goes.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:07 am
Cliff Hanger wrote:

I said already, their reaction is less than favorable, Islam has not yet adapted to the modern world-- nonetheless, I believe it is the responsibility of modern cultures to negotiate them into the modern world.

I'm not saying this will be easy, but derogatory cartoons are simply inflaming the situaltion.


I live in Canada. I know many muslims. They have all adapted to the modern world. Women and men. They drive, vote, run for office, work, go to school, shop, blah blah blah. Then again, where I live, people aren't segregated or ghettoised.

What I find ironic is how Jews are portrayed as evil incarnate in everything from newspapers to school books by Muslims, especially in the countries where the riots and stupidity have escalated.

Cartoons, or at least the thought provoking ones, routinely voice those nasty little thoughts we all share. Sadly, when most people think of Islam they equate it to terrorism. The real tragedy seems to be no matter what the event, Muslims react with violence. It appears to most people as their only vehicle for change. We don't hear the moderate voices over the clatter from the masses. We see the fatwahs, the suicide bombings, the needless deaths and destruction in the streets after the riotious crowds congeal over silly little caricatures or beauty contests.
And the circle continues.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:09 am
Now is the time for the moderate, level-headed Muslims to come out of hiding.

I am waiting for someone now to start making gross images of Muhammed for no reason other than ti incite the fanatics... who knew all someone had to do was draw a picture of the prophet?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:10 am
I don't think that's quite fair. I hear from moderate Muslims all the time -- in person and in the media. Sometimes I have to look harder for them, because the violence gets more coverage. If there are 25 moderate Muslims who sign a petition decrying the protests, and 10 radical Muslims staging a protest with incendiary placards, who gets more coverage?

Who's fault is that, though?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:12 am
They're NOT hiding.

First Google result:

Quote:
February 7, 2006

San Diego Muslims joined a growing refrain yesterday condemning the spreading violence over caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad published in European media. But they remain troubled that some non-Muslims don't understand just how seriously the cartoons offended followers of the world's second-largest religion.

"You cannot attack the prophets of God without attacking God," said Sam Hamod, a San Marcos resident and former director of the Islamic Center of Washington, D.C. "It's an attack on who they are and what they are. It's a serious matter to Muslims."

That said, he added: "I don't condone the violence at all; I condemn it."

Imam Taha Hassane of the Islamic Center of San Diego, the county's largest mosque, said the cartoons and their brutal aftermath are "topic No. 1."

"What we are focusing on here and what we are promoting here is how to demonstrate peacefully and how to show our concern peacefully," Hassane said.

The Algerian-born cleric said Muslims in San Diego "understand why people reacted in the way they reacted. It's a very sensitive issue. It makes people very emotional. There are some red lines that nobody should cross."

Rosemary Johnston, a Roman Catholic laywoman and longtime leader in interfaith cooperation, was sympathetic. However, she said she was offended by both the cartoons and the responses.

"I would like to see local Islamic leaders organize a press conference," she said, similar to one held yesterday by national Muslim representatives in Washington, D.C.

"They need to speak with a louder voice because their voice is not being heard in the midst of the violence," Johnston said. "When they're silent, people think they agree with them."

Hassane said the Islamic Center of San Diego is organizing an open house Feb. 19 to discuss the importance of Muhammad, the revered seventh-century prophet to whom Muslims believe Allah revealed the religion. Hassane said he also plans to address the outrage and the aftermath during his sermon Friday.

"It's always an issue of education," he said. "It's an issue of spreading and conveying to people the right understanding here in the United States."

Omar Hasseine, president of the San Diego chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said he believes in freedom of religion and freedom of speech. "But the freedom has to stop somewhere," he said. "It cannot offend others . . . My own reaction is everyone is picking on Islam and Muslims."

Likewise, Hanada Taha-Thomure, education chairwoman of the Muslim Community Center of Greater San Diego in Rancho Peñasquitos, said Western media largely ignored the offensive cartoons until the protests turned violent.

Taha-Thomure got a call yesterday from her mother in her native Lebanon. "She told me that we do not believe that the people who burned the embassy there, who did this, are Muslim. We believe they are outsiders who infiltrated the community."

Some acknowledged yesterday that the uproar will be a setback to the argument that Islam is a religion of peace. However, they also contend that the burden is shared by both sides.

While many Muslims argue that freedom of speech should not be a shield for those who ridicule religion, the British polemicist Christopher Hitchens noted that Western media have mocked all religious traditions.

"Islam makes very large claims for itself," Hitchens wrote in the online journal Slate. "In its art, there is a prejudice against representing the human form at all. The prohibition on picturing the prophet - who was only another male mammal - is apparently absolute. So is the prohibition on pork or alcohol or, in some Muslim societies, music or dancing. Very well then, let a good Muslim abstain rigorously from all these. But if he claims the right to make me abstain as well, he offers the clearest possible warning and proof of an aggressive intent."

Likewise, a conservative group that monitors Christian persecution noted "sad ironies" in the Muslim response.

"One is the fact that their reaction is an illustration of exactly what the cartoons are depicting," International Christian Concern said in a statement. "It is as if the protesters are saying, 'How dare you portray us as violent? We will kill you for that.' "

However, the cartoons touch deep emotions, especially among immigrants unsure of their acceptance in their new homelands. Hasseine, the CAIR representative and an Algerian immigrant, tells of a conversation he had years ago with a friend from Jamaica.

"I think things are a lot better for blacks in America today," Hasseine recalled telling his friend.

He said the Jamaican immigrant replied: "You know what, Omar? You have to be in my skin to really know what I feel."

"After 9/11," Hasseine said, "I remembered his words. After 9/11, I started walking in the skin of an Arab in this country."


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20060207-9999-1n7react.html
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:15 am
Quote:
Ammar Amonette, a spiritual leader at the Colorado Muslim Society, said the rioters allowed themselves to be manipulated, which fed into the notion that Muslims are violent.

"That didn't do our community any good at all," he said.

Rima Barakat, a local Muslim activist, said, "The cartoons were very offensive, but we have to rise above this and recognize we have challenges as Muslims that are greater than cartoons."

Among them, she said, are women's issues, extremism and terrorism.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:16 am
That was my point soz, but you said it better.
If you watch the news, if you read the paper or the net, if anyone bothers, most of the stories, the images are of the fanatics. Most people don't hear of the moderates except in the odd soundbite. It rarely makes a dent or an inpression after all the mayhem. It doesn't stand a chance.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:17 am
Meanwhile, I'm having a terrible time finding anything about the press conference ("one held yesterday by national Muslim representatives in Washington, D.C."). Could be it's an error in the article, could be it didn't get much coverage. Again, if that's the case -- if it happened, and got no coverage to speak of -- who's fault is it?

(I'll keep looking.)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:17 am
Ah, OK, gotcha Ceili.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:29 am
Yaay, thread number 7 about the subject and lets start the discussion all over again. Waiting to hit #10...
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