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In Support of Muslims: Denmark Cartoons

 
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2006 03:52 pm
nimh wrote:
[****in hell thats what I'm talking about, innit?

Thats what people like FreeDuck and I have been saying from the very effing beginning!!

<gggrrr>

But everytime I get to the second part of that and start saying the part that goes, "newspapers should accept that they have a duty not to cause gratuitous offense" - and I empathically havent even ever used the word "duty", merely "responsibility" - you people jump all over me and tell me I'm apologising the Islamist protesters, that I'm putting the blame on Jylland-Posten and am thus eroding the right to free speech, and do I think the guys that are burning embassies or killing people are right, then? And more stuff of the sort.

<still grrr-ing>


Right, I'm not going to accuse you of any such thing, I'm just going to explain the knee jerk reaction, so don't bite my head off.

To me this is pretty much the same situation as with skimpily clad women and rape, I think focusing on the attire in that context is reprehensible even if one does add the disclaimer that the attire could in no way justify sexual assault. It feels like one of those quasi denounciations of terror that goes like "terrorism is off course never justified, but given [fill in the blank] it is easy to understand how some people would consider it justified, and you realy can't help but sympathise with them. (I know how that works, I was bitten by that bug once. Had me raving like a lunatic for a good year.)

The tastefullness of the cartoons is just such a non issue, and the focus on it so close to a veiled blame the victim possition, that my knee jerk reaction is to denounce it as such. It does, in context, have an aftertaste of legitimizing the overreaction that isn't quite done away with by the disclaimer that that isn't intended.

I suppose the fact that I see the tastefullness of cartoons as such a non issue in and of themselves, adds to my inclination to sense a hidden agenda, even if it is expressly denied.
0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Feb, 2006 04:38 pm
Bob Smith, the creator of http://www.jesusdressup.com/index.html# is now going to have a Prophet Mohammed dress-up. Just waiting for WWIII to start.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Feb, 2006 05:42 pm
This link needs to be made.

In Europe, a man was just sentenced to 3 years in prison for denying the Holocaust took place.

I support free speech in both cases-- I think neither prison terms for neo-nazis, nor sanctions for blasphemous cartoons are appropriate.

I hope all those who argue that the Muslims are out of line for protesting these cartoons also agree that the sentence for Holocaust denial is equally out of line.
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Feb, 2006 06:23 pm
Killing people over cartoons hardly seems a just cause. A whole comic book I could understand...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Feb, 2006 07:07 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
This link needs to be made.

In Europe, a man was just sentenced to 3 years in prison for denying the Holocaust took place.

Dont forget the Polish newspaper editor who was taken to court over "offending the dignity of the Pope", or the Austrian cartoonist who was sent to prison in Greece for depicting Jesus Christ in a demeaning manner. Both last year. There's definitely a double standard at work here.

Einherjar - I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Thank you for the links though, I will add those to an online archive. And I'll add that at least you've been by far the most reasoned and to-the-point poster with whom I've disagreed on this point, so far.

Nick Fun Razz
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 07:26 am
Einherjar wrote:
To me this is pretty much the same situation as with skimpily clad women and rape, I think focusing on the attire in that context is reprehensible even if one does add the disclaimer that the attire could in no way justify sexual assault.

This one I'll still expound on, though, because I think the rape analogy is starkly misguided.

For one, there is nothing the "skimpily clad woman" does to insult, ridicule or attack her agressors, in any way - on her part, she enters in no interaction with them. Even if she did, it still wouldn't justify any violence toward her, but the fact that she doesn't, whereas Jyllands-Posten went out of its way to do something it knew would deeply aggrieve even mainstream Muslims, specifically addressing them in order to "test" how far they could go, makes the comparison invalid.

Secondly, even a lesser, hypothetical charge that, ok, she didn't insult them but she "tempted" them or something, doesnt hold up. I'm no expert on the topic, but I believe that it's been shown that rapists do not actually act on attraction or temptation, but on a need to intimidate, dominate, oppress. How the woman is dressed usually plays no role whatsoever. So there's no analogy with what was definitely a deliberate move of Jyllands-Posten to gauge the expected reaction.

I think a better analogy, if one does want one, is the one that dlowan proposed in one of the other threads. She compared the cartoons hubbub with what happens if you, a white person, walk into Compton and start calling people "nigger" left and right -- and end up being beaten up. The beating up remains inexcusable, and those who did it must be arrested and prosecuted. But it nevertheless remains stupid to have walked into South Central and call people nigger.

And I think that, in an equivalent situation, it is up to us to observe both things (the inexcusability of the violence and the stupidity of provoking it, in arguably needless fashion). I don't buy the argument you suggest that we shouldn't talk about the stupid part because it would be disloyal. Critical self-reflection is what European journalists are supposed to have over the religious zealots. If anything, in times of crisis we should remain true to ourselves and our own principles, rather than adopting their logic of closing ranks and admitting no fault. I think that the logic of remaining silent about half the story because it would somehow be disloyalty in the face of the true enemy does nothing to solve the issue.

As for hidden agendas, it is easy to see that many of those who are most strident and indignant about the cartoons, most insistent in publishing and showing them wherever possible, have one of their own. The now resigned Italian Minister Calderoli, of the vehemently anti-immigrant Northern League, is a classic example; so are the Dutch politicians who've been most strident about it, anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim politician Geert Wilders, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Everyone has a right to his or her personal crusade against Islam, but the protestations that this time, they are merely fighting for free speech, often sound hypocritical at best. (Again Calderoli is a good example, posturing about his fight for freedom and against fundamentalism while simultaneously demanding his government coalition parties to ""defend Europe's Christian roots".)
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 01:31 pm
nimh wrote:
... Everyone has a right to his or her personal crusade against Islam, ...
I dont think you believe this for one moment. You give every impression of condemning any intellectual criticism of Islam as racist, bigotted and therefore totally unacceptable.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 07:52 am
Quote:
Christians Turn on Muslims In Nigeria; More Than 30 Die

By Craig Timberg
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, February 23, 2006; A01



ONITSHA, Nigeria, Feb. 22 -- Christian mobs in this southern city attacked Muslim motorists and traders Wednesday, leaving more than 30 people dead, according to witnesses, as religious riots sparked by the publishing of cartoons of the prophet Muhammad continued into a fifth day in Nigeria. Nationwide, the death toll reached at least 80.

Hordes of angry men marauded through Onitsha armed with machetes, guns and boards with nails pounded into their ends, witnesses said. The mobs burned two mosques and looted and destroyed Muslim-owned shops as they sought vengeance for similar attacks against Christians in two predominantly Muslim cities in northern part of the country.

"They've been killing our brothers and sisters in the north," men shouted Wednesday morning, according to Afoma Clara Adique, 40, a motorist who had driven through Onitsha. She escaped the mobs, she said, but only after speaking to the men in a regional language used by Christians.

Before she could get away, Adique said, she saw burned and dismembered bodies along the side of the road.

"Horrible," she said. "I just closed my eyes. It's so horrible."

Her traveling companion, Tony Iweka, 45, a magazine editor, said a man in the mob raised his right hand to display what appeared to be a freshly decapitated head.

The attacks in Nigeria began this weekend, almost six months after the cartoons were first published in a Danish newspaper and weeks after they ignited a wave of unrest in Muslim countries from Egypt to Indonesia that left about 28 people dead -- almost all of them shot by security forces -- in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Libya. But the clashes in Nigeria, this continent's most populous country, have been the deadliest, and the first involving counterattacks by Christians.

Religious violence has flared in recent years in this West African nation, which is split roughly in half between a Muslim north and a Christian and animist south, but with most areas containing a mixture of all three religious groups. More than 1,000 people were killed in fighting between Christians and Muslims in 2004.


source
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