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Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2006 08:13 pm
nimh wrote:
Well Thomas, Bush is a pinko, compared to Foxfyre... Razz

Thanks for bringing additional references, btw; George didnt seem to be too impressed by mine ;-)


Not antagonistic, merely skeptical. It is currently fashionable to cite the supposed growing inequality of wealth distribution in this country. Fashionable "truths" are often wrong. There is little doubt that the top/bottom wage ratios in U.S. large corporations have grown a good deal over the past two decades. However there is a good deal more to the question than that. Multiple wage earning households are far more common now and access to education much broader than a few decades ago. Income distributions in this country are likewise generally broader than in Europe, but that too doesn't tell all of the story about social and economic mobility in the two regions, either currently or in terms of their trends over time.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2006 09:00 pm
Great American Dream Machine
By Stephen Moore & Lincoln Anderson from The Wall Street Journal
Posted December 21, 2005

New reports by the Census Bureau and the Federal Reserve Board on the economic well-being of the typical American family reveal that over the past three decades, the vast majority of families have experienced a rapid growth in their income and wealth. Now that nearly six out of 10 households own stock and two out of three own their own homes, the average family -- for the first time ever -- has net worth (assets minus liabilities) of more than $100,000. Median family income has climbed to more than $54,000 a year.

Almost no one in the national media has taken notice of this good news, which has been camouflaged by a barrage of misleading and gloomy stories on "stagnant wages," "the growing income gap between rich and poor," "the disappearing middle class" and "rising poverty in America." The reality is that if the economic growth, employment and family-finances numbers get any better, the media will soon have to start calling this the "Clinton economy."

What the reports tell us is that the vast majority of Americans have not bumped into income glass-ceilings, but rather are experiencing an astonishing pace of upward income mobility. The Census data from 1967 to 2004 provides the percentage of families that fall within various income ranges, starting at $0 to $5,000, $5,000 to $10,000, and so on, up to over $100,000 (all numbers here are adjusted for inflation). These data show, for example, that in 1967 only one in 25 families earned an income of $100,000 or more in real income, whereas now, one in six do. The percentage of families that have an income of more than $75,000 a year has tripled from 9% to 27%.

But it's not just the rich that are getting richer. Virtually every income group has been lifted by the tide of growth in recent decades. The percentage of families with real incomes between $5,000 and $50,000 has been falling as more families move into higher income categories -- the figure has dropped by 19 percentage points since 1967. This huge move out of lower incomes and into middle- and higher-income categories shows that upward mobility is the rule, not the exception, in America today.

It is true that the median-income numbers have fallen slightly in recent years. But this has been the pattern during virtually every recession and immediate post-recession period of the last 40 years. Median-income growth stalls, and then when the recovery picks up steam, incomes resume their inexorable march upward. That is why the long-term trend is what we should be paying attention to. And examining this data leaves no room for argument: The middle class has not been "shrinking" or losing ground, it has been getting richer. For example, the Census data indicate that the income cutoff to be considered "middle class" has risen steadily. Back in 1967, the income range for the middle class (i.e., the middle-income quintile) was between $28,000 and $39,500 a year (in today's dollars). Now that income range is between $38,000 and $59,000 a year, which is to say that the middle class is now roughly $11,000 a year richer than 25 to 30 years ago. This helps explain why middle-income families can buy things like cable TV, air conditioning, DVD players, cell phones, second cars and so on, that were considered mostly luxury items for the rich in the 1950s and '60s.

The upper-middle class is also richer. Those falling within the 60th to 80th percentile in family income have an income range today of between $55,000 and $88,000 a year, which is about $24,000 a year higher than in 1967. This rapid upward income mobility indicates that the great American Dream, in which each generation achieves a higher living standard than their parents, is alive and well.

Turning from income to wealth, data from the Fed provide further confirmation of family economic gains for the middle class. The total net worth of Americans rose to just shy of $50 trillion in 2004. The Fed has not yet calculated the median household wealth for 2004, but we estimated that number by taking the average ratio of mean wealth to median family wealth over the past 10 years. This yields an estimate of $105,000 in 2004. This is almost double the median family-wealth level of 1983 and nearly triple the level of 1962. Until very recently, for a family to attain six figures of wealth was considered quite rich. Despite all of the groans about the over-indebtedness of American households, the new Federal Reserve Board data suggest that the family balance sheet is not highly levered. The ratio of debt to assets is only 18.3%.

Finally, we need to address the issue of whether the poor are being left behind in this era of wealth and income gains. It is true that there is one income category -- $0 to $5,000 a year -- where income mobility is hardly observable. This very low income group has stubbornly fluctuated between 2.3% and 3.6% of American families. We certainly think driving down the percentage of these "have nots" is a critical national priority, but we do not think their poverty is a result of a macro failure of the U.S. economy. Indeed, a very large percentage of these families do not even have a full-time worker participating in the labor force. We think poverty is best addressed by real competition-based reforms in education, by fighting crime and addiction, and by rebuilding American families.

The media and the poverty lobby have seized upon the news that the poverty rate has spiked upward to 12.7% in 2004, up from 11.3% before the recession. This rise was widely reported and condemned, but again this is a short-term phenomenon attributable to the aftershocks of the recession. What was not widely reported was that the 12.7% poverty rate was the lowest coming out of any recession in the last 25 years, and that the poverty rate has been lower than 12.7% in only five of the last 25 years. It certainly is better than the 15.1% rate poverty-rate peak in 1993.

The Census family-finances data corroborate the common-sense notion that by far the best long-term anti-poverty program is growth and avoidance of recession -- because the downturns invariably hit the poor hardest. That's why President Bush's tax cuts should be extended: They have created a positive investment, jobs and growth climate that will, if history is any guide, reverse the recent uptick in poverty levels.

We can say with certainty that most working Americans are achieving levels of wealth and income that far surpass those of their parents. It's reassuring to know that the U.S. is still the pre-eminent meritocracy, where economic success is still predominantly powered by hard work and saving, not inheritance and privilege.

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB113513427028228173-lMyQjAxMDE2MzA1MzEwMzM0Wj.html
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2006 09:34 pm
Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Some, including some academics, would say that American academia has shifted too close to the radical left to be a dependable source of commentary on the American experience anymore. Much is said of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, yadda yadda.

Two quick points about this: (1) Some, including some academics, would also say that god created the Earth in seven days some 10000 years ago. Obviously what "some, including some academics, would also say" is a fairly useless standard of proof. (2) If the research nimh quoted is "too close to the radical left to be a dependable source of commentary", so are Gregory Mankiw Ben Bernanke. They have both independently published the very same information in their `Principles of Economics' textbooks. I wonder why President Bush would appoint such radical left-wingnuts to chair his council of economic advisors, and why he would appoint one of them to preside over the Fed. Who would have thought that Bush is such a pinko?


Nimh did not reference Mankiw or Bernanke. And I did not say Nimh's source was 'too close to the radical left' without qualifying that as a possibility, not necessarily a fact.

In other threads, numerous opinions, including studies, have been posted showing that American mainstream academia is strongly tilted to the left in many, if not most, disciplines. I felt my comment had been sufficiently supported to not have to rehash all that material, especially as my comment was to lay foundation for my own, I believe informed, opinion that followed it.

Now Thomas, you are not generally given to unfair nitpicking here. I offered an opinion. Agree with it, disagree with it, dispute it, discredit it as you will. But at least put my remarks in their proper context. I didn't dismiss Nimh's source as invalid, but rather viewed my suspicion that a single, probably strongly leftist leaning source was not convincing on this particular subject, and I offered what I believe to be a supportable alternative take on it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2006 09:37 pm
JW, thank you for a great alternate source. Smile
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2006 09:44 pm
You're most welcome, Foxy. Since you're a Sowell fan, you've probably already seen this...but I enjoy re-reading just about anything by him:

Big Lie of the Year
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2006 10:28 pm
JustWonders wrote:
You're most welcome, Foxy. Since you're a Sowell fan, you've probably already seen this...but I enjoy re-reading just about anything by him:

Big Lie of the Year


I don't remember seeing that specific column but it's typical Sowell, and quite appropo to this subtopic in the thread. Thanks again JW Smile
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 02:15 am
Georgeob1: I understand your skepticism, and have felt it myself for quite some time. One major influence in eroding mine was a series of articles about income mobility in the Wall Street Journal. The Journal is solidly conservative/libertarian and has no partisan incentive to hype decreasing mobility if it isn't there. This excerpt from the initial article is fairly representative of the series' overall tone.

The Wall Street Journal wrote:
Despite the widespread belief that the U.S. remains a more mobile society than Europe, economists and sociologists say that in recent decades the typical child starting out in poverty in continental Europe (or in Canada) has had a better chance at prosperity. Miles Corak, an economist for Canada's national statistical agency who edited a recent Cambridge University Press book on mobility in Europe and North America, tweaked dozens of studies of the U.S., Canada and European countries to make them comparable. "The U.S. and Britain appear to stand out as the least mobile societies among the rich countries studied," he finds. France and Germany are somewhat more mobile than the U.S.; Canada and the Nordic countries are much more so.

Even the University of Chicago's Prof. Becker is changing his mind, reluctantly. "I do believe that it's still true if you come from a modest background it's easier to move ahead in the U.S. than elsewhere," he says, "but the more data we get that doesn't show that, the more we have to accept the conclusions."

Full article (Subscribers only)

by the way, I just checked the textbooks by Mankiv and Bernanke/Frank. It turns out I have to make a correction about Mankiw: His textbook does mention America's strongly increasing inequality and its slightly increasing poverty rate, but he doesn't mention income mobility. I misremembered that.

JustWonders, quoting Steven Moore, wrote:
What the reports tell us is that the vast majority of Americans have not bumped into income glass-ceilings, but rather are experiencing an astonishing pace of upward income mobility. The Census data from 1967 to 2004 provides the percentage of families that fall within various income ranges, starting at $0 to $5,000, $5,000 to $10,000, and so on, up to over $100,000 (all numbers here are adjusted for inflation). These data show, for example, that in 1967 only one in 25 families earned an income of $100,000 or more in real income, whereas now, one in six do. The percentage of families that have an income of more than $75,000 a year has tripled from 9% to 27%.

One problem with Steven Moore is that he never adjusts his income statistics for inflation. Since a dollar today is only worth one fifth of what it was worth in 1967, this seriously distorts his comparisons. As a side note, when Moore finished Julian Simon's book "It's getting better all the time", he made nonsense of it with self-serving omissions like this one. Julian Simon is one of my heroes, so I'm really mad at Steven Moore for pulling such crap. With friends like him, we libertarians need no enemies. He makes us all look like brainless true believer types.

Foxfyre wrote:
I didn't dismiss Nimh's source as invalid, but rather viewed my suspicion that a single, probably strongly leftist leaning source was not convincing on this particular subject, and I offered what I believe to be a supportable alternative take on it.

Fair enough, Foxfyre.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 07:38 am
Thomas,

Interesting arguments and points made. You may well be correct in many aspects of the argument. However, when I read the argument that the U.S. and Britain - arguably the most competitive and fast-growing economies of the Western World - have lower economic and social mobility that others, such as Canada, France, Scandanavia, etc. , my phoneyometer goes into full alarm. I suspect there is another unstated motivation lurking behind the argument ('tho, like you, I don't expect to see it from the Wall Street Journal), and fear that some rather distorted comparisons have entered the field of study.

For example, economic mobility is a phrase that certainly must be given a different meaning or significance in (say) Sweden than in (say) the United States. The former has a much more compact distribution of economic situations and a far more monolitiic social structure. There just isn't as much movement possible in a high tax, high social welfare society. The Swedes have certainly created a successful model, but I doubt that it could be successfully exported to a different and more varied culture.

How does one adequately account for the greater average earning potential (and per capita GDP) in more competitive economies such as the U.S. . Gritain (and Ireland), compared to the others?

I don't know the relative immigration figures, but there is little doubt that the U.S. economy (and society) is absorbing large numbers of (legal and illegal) immigrants from Central America, South and East Asia, and increasingly from Moslem countries. The curent wave of immigration contributes to the depression of wages at the lower end of the spectrum (just as did earlier such waves). However for them this does indeed represent a measurable form of both social and economic upward mobility, and within this country such waves have been a precursor to the subsequent rapid economic rise of the immigrant population. This is a stark contrast to what occurs in Western Europe - particularly in the European countries with the most highly developed social welfare systems.

In short, I believe the real answer to this question requires a dynamic, non-linear analysis of much greater complexity than has been offered by any of the self-appointed eexperts I am aware of.

I agree that there are identifiable factors and trends that have limiting effects on mobility. However, ther are opposing trends and factors as well. It is far too early to conclude that an unmistakable, long-term, history of relatively great social and econoimic mobility in this country has somehow ended.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 09:02 am
GeorgeOB1 writes
Quote:
I agree that there are identifiable factors and trends that have limiting effects on mobility. However, ther are opposing trends and factors as well. It is far too early to conclude that an unmistakable, long-term, history of relatively great social and econoimic mobility in this country has somehow ended.


It seems to me that none of the socioeconomic gurus citing an end to the American dream also take into consideration is the affect of American anti-poverty programs on upward mobility. Also, some of those 'opposing trends and factors' have to include the breakdown of family, increased use of drugs and alcohol among kids and young adults, epidemic school dropout rates, and similar shifts in values that were not as common to the American culture 50 years ago.

On the flipside is that virtually all of those who are getting an education, who aren't spaced out on drugs and alcohol, and who are willing to pay their dues to get established are starting out with a far higher standard of living than most of my generation could even dream of, even if they are slower to move out of the family home.

I think you have to look at choices, behavior, and the net effect of those to come to any comprehensive conclusion.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 09:11 am
David Wessel (author of the WSJ article Thomas posted) also predicted "a Hurricane Katrina-like crash" for the U.S. economy. His solutions? Devalue the U.S. dollar and raise taxes.

'Nuff said.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 09:27 am
JustWonders wrote:
David Wessel (author of the WSJ article Thomas posted) also predicted "a Hurricane Katrina-like crash" for the U.S. economy. His solutions? Devalue the U.S. dollar and raise taxes.

'Nuff said.

The jury is still out on whether this is good or bad advice, given that Asia's central banks will cash in their US treasury bonds at some point. And while Wessel's suggestions are debatable, Moore's failure to adjust for 35 years of inflation is just plain bogus.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 09:47 am
Quote:
What the reports tell us is that the vast majority of Americans have not bumped into income glass-ceilings, but rather are experiencing an astonishing pace of upward income mobility. The Census data from 1967 to 2004 provides the percentage of families that fall within various income ranges, starting at $0 to $5,000, $5,000 to $10,000, and so on, up to over $100,000 (all numbers here are adjusted for inflation). These data show, for example, that in 1967 only one in 25 families earned an income of $100,000 or more in real income, whereas now, one in six do. The percentage of families that have an income of more than $75,000 a year has tripled from 9% to 27%.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 09:49 am
JustWonders wrote:
Quote:
What the reports tell us is that the vast majority of Americans have not bumped into income glass-ceilings, but rather are experiencing an astonishing pace of upward income mobility. The Census data from 1967 to 2004 provides the percentage of families that fall within various income ranges, starting at $0 to $5,000, $5,000 to $10,000, and so on, up to over $100,000 (all numbers here are adjusted for inflation). These data show, for example, that in 1967 only one in 25 families earned an income of $100,000 or more in real income, whereas now, one in six do. The percentage of families that have an income of more than $75,000 a year has tripled from 9% to 27%.

Fair enough, JW, I apologize and take it back.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 12:56 pm
Appreciate it, Thomas.

<Pretty minor compared to some of the doozies I've made here>
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 04:04 pm
As an aside, I wish to express my complete disgust and contempt for a bunch of bad mannered, hateful Democrats who today used the funeral of Coretta Scott King for the purpose of bashing our President. This is about as low as it gets and should completely embarrass any decent members of that party.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 04:07 pm
Oh, dear. I haven't seen it yet. Ugh.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 04:11 pm
Well it was really mostly two who did it. But the whole lot of them stood and cheered. It was reprehensible. I would be out campaigning to oust any Republican who did anything even close to that during an occasion like that.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 04:12 pm
Thanks. Hadn't heard about that.

From Drudge:

Quote:
KING FUNERAL TURNS POLITICAL: BUSH BASHED BY FORMER PRESIDENT, REVEREND
Tue Feb 07 2006 15:49:48 ET

Today's memorial service for civil rights activist Coretta Scott King -- billed as a "celebration" of her life -- turned suddenly political as one former president took a swipe at the current president, who was also lashed by an outspoken black pastor!

The outspoken Rev. Joseph Lowery, co-founder of Southern Christian Leadership Conference, ripped into President Bush during his short speech, ostensibly about the wife of Martin Luther King Jr.

"She extended Martin's message against poverty, racism and war. She deplored the terror inflicted by our smart bombs on missions way afar. We know now that there were no weapons of mass destruction over there," Lowery said.

The mostly black crowd applauded, then rose to its feet and cheered in a two-minute-long standing ovation.

A closed-circuit television in the mega-church outside Atlanta showed the president smiling uncomfortably.

"But Coretta knew, and we know," Lowery continued, "That there are weapons of misdirection right down here," he said, nodding his head toward the row of presidents past and present. "For war, billions more, but no more for the poor!" The crowd again cheered wildly.

Former President Jimmy Carter later swung at Bush as well, not once but twice. As he talked about the Kings, he said: "It was difficult for them then personally with the civil liberties of both husband and wife violated as they became the target of secret government wiretaps." The crowd cheered as Bush, under fire for a secret wiretapping program he ordered after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, again smiled weakly.

Later, Carter said Hurricane Katrina showed that all are not yet equal in America. Some black leaders have blamed Bush for the poor federal response, and rapper Kayne West said that Bush "hates" black people.

Developing...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 04:27 pm
To quote the Rev. Joseph Lowery more correctly than in the above report:

Quote:
"She extended Martin's message against poverty, racism and war / She deplored the terror inflicted by our smart bombs on missions way afar," he said.

"We know now there were no weapons of mass destruction over there / But Coretta knew and we knew that there are weapons of misdirection right down here / Millions without health insurance. Poverty abounds. For war billions more but no more for the poor."

The mourners gave a standing ovation. Bush's reaction could not be seen on the television coverage, but after Lowery finished speaking, the president shook his hand and laughed.

source: as provided by agencies like here reuters.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 04:28 pm
Well, that's what Tico posted, Walter. We got it.
0 Replies
 
 

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