WASHINGTON, July 11 ?- The White House conceded on Tuesday for the first time that terror suspects held by the United States had a right under international law to basic human and legal protections under the Geneva Conventions.
The statement reverses a position the White House had held since shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, and it represents a victory for those within the administration who argued that the United States' refusal to extend Geneva protections to Qaeda prisoners was harming the country's standing abroad.
It said the White House would withdraw a part of an executive order issued by President Bush in 2002 saying that terror suspects were not covered by the Geneva Conventions.
The White House said the change was in keeping with the Supreme Court decision two weeks ago that struck down the military tribunals Mr. Bush established. A Defense Department memorandum made public earlier Tuesday concluded that the court decision also meant that terror suspects in military custody had legal rights under the Geneva Convention.
The new White House interpretation is likely to have sweeping implications, because it appears to apply to all Qaeda and Taliban terror suspects now in the custody of the Central Intelligence Agency or other American intelligence organizations around the world. From the outset, Mr. Bush declared that the battle against Al Qaeda would be a war like no other, but his administration has been forced to back away from its most forceful efforts to deny rights to terror suspects. [News analysis, Page A20.]
Mr. Bush's order of Feb. 7, 2002, issued shortly after American-led forces toppled the Taliban government in Afghanistan, specifically said that critical aspects of the Geneva Conventions do "not apply to either Al Qaeda or Taliban detainees."
In response to a question, the White House issued a statement late Tuesday, saying: "As a result of the Supreme Court decision, that portion of the order no longer applies. The Supreme Court has clarified what the law is, and the executive branch will comply."
Time for a lesson in critical reading, it appears. You claim Sowell (whom we both know you're no fan of) is being "inexcusably careless with the truth or his research." Let's analyze.
It appears you believe Sowell's fault is you believe he claimed the media initially reported all of the museum's collection lost, when none of it was.
Sowell said:
Quote:While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which various items were missing.
What specific "media condemnation" is Sowell referring to here? He doesn't specify. But we know from the article you linked to, that:
Quote:Thanks to the foresight of the museum staff, the losses were less severe than than initially reported in the media, when a total loss of this collection was predicted.
We know that the media "initially reported ... a total loss of this collection." It appears that what Sowell is referring to when he refers to "various items," are those items that were missing, but not actually lost. He does not specify what "various items" he is referring to. But, notably, he does not refer to the entire collection of the museum, and instead refers to "various items." Had he intended to refer to the entirety of the museum's collection, which you seem to have concluded he did, he would probably have done so.
Now, if Sowell had instead written, "While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which its entire collection was missing," you would have a valid point.
It appears you believe Sowell's fault is you believe he claimed the media initially reported all of the museum's collection lost, when none of it was.
Tico(I split hairs whenever necessary)Mayo: It's not about whether the US believes it's treatment of prisoners is humane. (It's not in all cases, but whatever.) It's about the President's Executive Order denying Geneva Convention coverage for those at Guantanamo and elsewhere. Jeez.
Tico(am I the only one capable of logical thought?)Maya
You are correct...I have little respect for Sowell and the above is a perfect example of why I don't. The truth or accuracy are less important than his political agenda. You or I could mail him the relevant and correct information but the chances of us ever seeing a correction (have you ever seen him do such?) would be perhaps zero.
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Michael Kinsley?
Paul Krugman?
You find them "absolutely unbiased"?
Wow.
Time for a lesson in critical reading, it appears. You claim Sowell (whom we both know you're no fan of) is being "inexcusably careless with the truth or his research." Let's analyze.
It appears you believe Sowell's fault is you believe he claimed the media initially reported all of the museum's collection lost, when none of it was.
Sowell said:
Quote:While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which various items were missing.
What specific "media condemnation" is Sowell referring to here? He doesn't specify. But we know from the article you linked to, that:
Quote:Thanks to the foresight of the museum staff, the losses were less severe than than initially reported in the media, when a total loss of this collection was predicted.
We know that the media "initially reported ... a total loss of this collection." It appears that what Sowell is referring to when he refers to "various items," are those items that were missing, but not actually lost. He does not specify what "various items" he is referring to. But, notably, he does not refer to the entire collection of the museum, and instead refers to "various items." Had he intended to refer to the entirety of the museum's collection, which you seem to have concluded he did, he would probably have done so.
Now, if Sowell had instead written, "While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which its entire collection was missing," you would have a valid point.
What comments are required, Joe? Treating the prisoners humanely is not a change in US policy, and that is repeated in the Pentagon memo from Gordon England:
Quote:It is my understanding that, aside from the military commission procedures, existing DoD orders, policies, directives, execute orders, and doctrine comply with the standards of Common Article 3 and, therefore, actions by DoD personnel that comply with such issuances would comply with the standards of Common Article 3. ... In addition, you will recall the President's prior directive that "the United States Armed Forces shall continue to treat detainees humanely," humane treatment being the overreaching requirement of Common Article 3.
blatham wrote:You are correct...I have little respect for Sowell and the above is a perfect example of why I don't. The truth or accuracy are less important than his political agenda. You or I could mail him the relevant and correct information but the chances of us ever seeing a correction (have you ever seen him do such?) would be perhaps zero.
Yes, chance of a correction = zero. Sowell would likely reply by trying to explain to you what I tried to explain to you, albeit with bigger words, but you wouldn't believe him either, so I say let's not.
While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which various items were missing.
"While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which its entire collection was missing,"
Ticomaya wrote:What comments are required, Joe? Treating the prisoners humanely is not a change in US policy, and that is repeated in the Pentagon memo from Gordon England:
Quote:It is my understanding that, aside from the military commission procedures, existing DoD orders, policies, directives, execute orders, and doctrine comply with the standards of Common Article 3 and, therefore, actions by DoD personnel that comply with such issuances would comply with the standards of Common Article 3. ... In addition, you will recall the President's prior directive that "the United States Armed Forces shall continue to treat detainees humanely," humane treatment being the overreaching requirement of Common Article 3.
I've seen enough reports and photographs of what is interpreted as humane treatment by these self-righteous and deeply dishonourable people, to give that statement the appropriate credence.
Not forgetting the statement (I may unintentionally paraphrase slightly) that "treatment which does not result in organ failure is not torture."
"More frequently than what we would like, we find out that the intelligence community has been penetrated, not necessarily by al-Qaida, but by other nations or organizations...I don't have any evidence, but from my perspective, when you have information that is leaked that is clearly helpful to our enemy, you cannot discount that possibility."
Hoekstra's statement is the mirror image of the Joseph McCarthy period.
I repeat: this is not about humane treatment, this is about this:
The Court declared that the Guantánamo detainees were covered by a provision of the Geneva Conventions known as Common Article 3. It prohibits cruel and inhumane treatment and requires that prisoners receive "all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized people."
By trying to deflect the argument to humane treatment you miss the more important part which is that the Bush Administration must finally act within the laws of civilized nations.
They may yet find a way not to, but at least the USSC has stood firm as the administration has fallen into shameful and unlawful behavior.
Joe(What, we are not the final authority on everything?)Nation
White House spokesman Tony Snow confirmed the new approach, according to wire service reports, saying that while detainees have been treated humanely, "we want to get it right. . . . It's not really a reversal of policy."
The looting of the Iraq Museum (Baghdad) is the most severe single blow to cultural heritage in modern history, comparable to the sack of Constantinople, the burning of the library at Alexandria, the Vandal and Mogul invasions, and the ravages of the conquistadors.
?- The American Schools of Oriental Research, Apr. 16, 2003
From April 10 to 12, 2003, during the mayhem that followed the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime, looters entered the Iraq National Museum in Baghdad. They stole and destroyed artifacts and caused damage to the museum. But as the confusion also enveloped the museum, no one outside Iraq knew exactly what was taken or the identity of the thieves. Seizing upon tiny bits of available information, Western archaeologists created their own narrative of events and aggressively promoted it through the world media. That narrative revealed nothing about what had happened at the museum. It told everything about the prejudices and biases of its authors.[2]
In this account, U.S. authorities had been explicitly warned of the danger to the museum prior to the war. They deliberately neglected to stop the looting and were possibly complicit in it. The archaeologists' narrative told a moralizing tale of culpability and guilt and heaped it upon U.S. policymakers and forces, even as the battles raged. No analogy was too far-fetched, from the thirteenth-century Crusader sack of Constantinople to the Mongol destruction of Baghdad.
There was only one problem: this saga had no connection to reality. Over time, the truth trickled out, and it was less dramatic than the tale of the "sack of Baghdad" told by the archaeologists. Though severe, the looting of the museum was far less devastating than originally represented. Western scholars of ancient Iraq, who already had a long record of silence about the crimes of Hussein and the Baath Party, compounded their ignominy in April 2003 by irresponsible distortions and unwarranted extrapolations. The years of silence gave way to a spasm of anti-coalition hysteria, some of it genuine, much of it self-serving.
The public expressions of outrage on the part of the archaeological profession subsequently have almost completely evaporated. But questions remain: What was the nature of the relations between archaeologists and the Baath regime? What sorts of compromises did they involve? And did the conduct of the archaeologists prior to and during the war reflect more than a professional concern for the fate of artifacts? Did it constitute a continuation of complicity with the regime, or perhaps for some even a strategy to conceal it, in order to secure a privileged place on the ground in the war's aftermath?
These questions can only be answered by examining the layers of evidence. In this case, the evidence is close to the surface and unequivocal.
....
On April 18, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) was assigned to aid in the recovery of stolen items. Then on April 23, a task force was created under the leadership of U.S. Marine reserve officer Colonel Matthew Bogdanos, a Manhattan district attorney in civilian life. At the same time, objects began to be returned by looters and "Iraqi protectors," primarily residents of surrounding neighborhoods and local religious leaders.[36] With Bogdanos in place, and Western media now on the scene in numbers, the picture began to change dramatically.
At the very end of April, Donny George participated in a conference at the British Museum where he was quoted as saying, "the Iraq Museum may have lost in excess of 170,000 items, some dating back 500,000 years."[37] But back in Baghdad, Bogdanos was beginning to raise questions over the scale of thefts: "Twenty-five pieces is not the same as 170,000," he said, referring to the actual number of display objects declared stolen by museum officials.[38] On May 1, The New York Times ran this headline: "Loss Estimates Are Cut on Iraqi Artifacts, but Questions Remain." And on May 2, Donny George gave an interview in The Art Newspaper that accelerated the reduction in loss estimates. Contradicting what he had stated just three days earlier to the press, and presumably at the British Museum conference, he now admitted, "We had moved out thousands of objects from the showcases, everything we could. There were something like a hundred that were either too heavy or too fragile?-but among them were some very important pieces . From the traces of what I have seen it could be a small percentage of the 170,000 objects.".[39] In later months, George would claim that he and others had been misquoted and had never actually used the figure of 170,000 losses.[40]
During the late spring and summer of 2003, it became increasingly clear that the events at the museum did not conform to the initial narrative. Most of the missing high-quality artifacts had indeed been hidden in various vaults and locations by the staff.[41] The staff portrayed its deception as necessary to protect the holdings, but some journalists were enraged at the manipulation.[42] Daniel Aaronovitch, writing in The Guardian, gave it fullest expression:
[i]Furious, I conclude two things from all this. The first is the credulousness of many Western academics and others who cannot conceive that a plausible and intelligent fellow-professional might have been an apparatchik of a fascist regime and a propagandist for his own past. The second is that?-these days?-you cannot say anything too bad about the Yanks and not be believed[/i].[43]
The continued recovery of objects, such as the Assyrian gold jewelry stored in the Central Bank and the famed Warka vase, made it increasingly difficult for the archaeologists to maintain high levels of indignation in public. The display of selected treasures in early July also defused angry sentiments and received wide media attention although professionals naturally dismissed it as a stunt.[44] (In September, another famous object, the Sumerian sculpture called the Warka lady, was recovered intact.) News reports also made it increasingly clear that the museum had been the scene of combat during April with the interior spaces used by Iraqi troops to fire at advancing Americans.[45]
But no one took responsibility for the deception. In June, John Malcolm Russell spoke to the "exaggerated claims" of the museum staff. Now he acknowledged that many people felt conned:
[i]Most people I know share my relief that so much of the collection survived, yet many also feel that their noble instincts were manipulated not only to produce shock and grief at a loss of such unprecedented magnitude but also to provoke rage at the cultural callousness of the United States in failing to prevent this predictable tragedy. I can sympathize with those who feel conned. For two weeks after the looting I must have been known as the weeping archaeologist ... So why did the museum staff apparently make such exaggerated claims? I don't know. Recent news reports have suggested that perhaps the first reporters on the scene, confronted with an empty museum, inquired about the total number of registered objects and reported that figure as the loss, or that the museum's senior staff, outraged by the lack of protection, produced this figure in anger to embarrass the Americans. I may never know the answer. Or perhaps some day, over dinner or a cup of tea, one of the Iraqi curators, whom I trust completely, will explain what happened.[/i][46]
Yet Russell did not include himself among those who had been conned, or who had conned others. Just as he brushed off complicity in defying pre-war sanctions, so he brushed off his role in abetting this last Iraqi deception. In September 2003, Russell was appointed deputy senior advisor to the Iraqi Ministry of Culture by the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA).
Donny George, the prime purveyor of the museum deception, also landed on his feet. The Western archaeological community did not care that he had misled the media and defamed the United States. In fact, he emerged as their hero, for secreting away the vast bulk of the museum holdings. Secure in the knowledge that he had this backing, George continued into the fall of 2003 to speak of U.S. perfidy, primarily in European and Arab newspapers.[47] He is now head of museums for the Iraqi State Board of Antiquities and Heritage.
Mission
The Middle East Forum is a think tank whose goal is to define and promote American interests in the Middle East, defining interests to include fighting radical Islam (rather than terrorism), working for Palestinian acceptance of Israel, urging the Bush administration to better manage its democracy efforts, reducing funds going to the Middle East for energy purchases, more robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia, and containing the Iranian threat. The Forum also works to improve Middle East studies in North America.
Western archaeologists speak the language of scholarly authority, pacifism, and universalism.
Tico, Blatham has declared me unworthy to debate. But ask him how many sources he uses that are not 'infiltrated by the left"
