3
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 07:33 pm
Tico(I split hairs whenever necessary)Mayo: It's not about whether the US believes it's treatment of prisoners is humane. (It's not in all cases, but whatever.) It's about the President's Executive Order denying Geneva Convention coverage for those at Guantanamo and elsewhere. Jeez.

From the NYT yesterday:

Quote:
The statement reverses a position the White House had held since shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, and it represents a victory for those within the administration who argued that the United States' refusal to extend Geneva protections to Qaeda prisoners was harming the country's standing abroad.

It said the White House would withdraw a part of an executive order issued by President Bush in 2002 saying that terror suspects were not covered by the Geneva Conventions.

The White House said the change was in keeping with the Supreme Court decision two weeks ago that struck down the military tribunals Mr. Bush established. A Defense Department memorandum made public earlier Tuesday concluded that the court decision also meant that terror suspects in military custody had legal rights under the Geneva Convention.

The new White House interpretation is likely to have sweeping implications, because it appears to apply to all Qaeda and Taliban terror suspects now in the custody of the Central Intelligence Agency or other American intelligence organizations around the world. From the outset, Mr. Bush declared that the battle against Al Qaeda would be a war like no other, but his administration has been forced to back away from its most forceful efforts to deny rights to terror suspects. [News analysis, Page A20.]

Mr. Bush's order of Feb. 7, 2002, issued shortly after American-led forces toppled the Taliban government in Afghanistan, specifically said that critical aspects of the Geneva Conventions do "not apply to either Al Qaeda or Taliban detainees."

In response to a question, the White House issued a statement late Tuesday, saying: "As a result of the Supreme Court decision, that portion of the order no longer applies. The Supreme Court has clarified what the law is, and the executive branch will comply."


Someone needs to brief Tony Snow on what "reversal of policy" means.

When will the words "Okay, so we were wrong about _________ ." ever pass the lips of the Republicans running this nation. It does seem to be a kind of pathological disorder and seems to have spread to some of the posters here.

Joe(But not Ticomayo, no, not him.)Nation
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 07:36 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Time for a lesson in critical reading, it appears. You claim Sowell (whom we both know you're no fan of) is being "inexcusably careless with the truth or his research." Let's analyze.

It appears you believe Sowell's fault is you believe he claimed the media initially reported all of the museum's collection lost, when none of it was.

Sowell said:

Quote:
While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which various items were missing.


What specific "media condemnation" is Sowell referring to here? He doesn't specify. But we know from the article you linked to, that:

Quote:
Thanks to the foresight of the museum staff, the losses were less severe than than initially reported in the media, when a total loss of this collection was predicted.


We know that the media "initially reported ... a total loss of this collection." It appears that what Sowell is referring to when he refers to "various items," are those items that were missing, but not actually lost. He does not specify what "various items" he is referring to. But, notably, he does not refer to the entire collection of the museum, and instead refers to "various items." Had he intended to refer to the entirety of the museum's collection, which you seem to have concluded he did, he would probably have done so.

Now, if Sowell had instead written, "While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which its entire collection was missing," you would have a valid point.


First, I'm well aware of the coverage given the museum looting when it happened. If Abuzz was still up, I could steer you to the various discussions on the matter. I have a fair stack of credits in Middle Eastern and Mediterranean Basin archaeology from the pre-historical period and later. This was a matter of particular importance to me and I followed it not only in the regular press (from several countries) but also via sites devoted to archaeology/anthropology. I can tell you, for example, that the anthropological community set up a number of meetings with DOD months before the onset of the war. Assurances were given that this museum, particularly, because of the absolutely unique historical value of its contents, would be protected. Those assurances were hollow. Add in Rumsfeld's comments at the time... "that's just the same vase we are seeing being stolen over and over". It was beneath contempt.

Quote:
It appears you believe Sowell's fault is you believe he claimed the media initially reported all of the museum's collection lost, when none of it was.
No. He says "not protecting a museum from which various items were missing" then he says "the museum staff had hid those items". "Those" in the second sentence refers to "various items missing" in the first. That's an absolute...the missing items were only (he is claiming) hidden, not looted, not lost, not destroyed. That is not the truth.

It is the case that the press did not know initially that portions of the collection had been spirited away by staff before the war. It is also the case that almost no one in the anthropological community knew about this either. It is also the case that had those staff not done so, the magnitude of the loss would have been as we initially thought. Rumsfeld and this administration deserve no forgiveness on this matter regardless of what anyone in the world press might have said at the time.

You are correct...I have little respect for Sowell and the above is a perfect example of why I don't. The truth or accuracy are less important than his political agenda. You or I could mail him the relevant and correct information but the chances of us ever seeing a correction (have you ever seen him do such?) would be perhaps zero.

Besides, if you think the press spoke badly about this incident, you really ought to dig up and read what the world's anthropological community was saying.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 07:57 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Tico(I split hairs whenever necessary)Mayo: It's not about whether the US believes it's treatment of prisoners is humane. (It's not in all cases, but whatever.) It's about the President's Executive Order denying Geneva Convention coverage for those at Guantanamo and elsewhere. Jeez.


I'm not splitting hairs, I'm being accurate, which is something you ought to be demanding from your darling hometown news rag. You apparently believe -- as does the NYT -- that by denying that the Geneva Conventions apply to international terrorist organizations, that the US must therefore be denying members of said organizations humane treatment and "basic human rights" ... an utterly simplistic and inaccurate view. The two are not mutually exclusive. The "change" is not that big a change at all, certainly not in the area of humane treatment, which is what Tony Snow was referring to.

Regardless of whether you agree with him or not, Snow was absolutely correct when he said that treating detainees humanely is NOT a change/reversal of US policy.

Tico(am I the only one capable of logical thought?)Maya
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 09:47 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Tico(am I the only one capable of logical thought?)Maya
Nope. It just seems that way in this exchange. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 10:56 pm
blatham wrote:
You are correct...I have little respect for Sowell and the above is a perfect example of why I don't. The truth or accuracy are less important than his political agenda. You or I could mail him the relevant and correct information but the chances of us ever seeing a correction (have you ever seen him do such?) would be perhaps zero.


Yes, chance of a correction = zero. Sowell would likely reply by trying to explain to you what I tried to explain to you, albeit with bigger words, but you wouldn't believe him either, so I say let's not.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2006 11:34 pm
Having not followed this thread's latest argument, I would however like to affirm Thomas Sowell as one good columnist, one of my favorites. He has a knack for dissecting an issue and explaining simply and accurately.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 12:41 am
Ticomaya wrote:


Shocked

Michael Kinsley?

Paul Krugman?


You find them "absolutely unbiased"?

Shocked Wow.


Krugman is biased, I think, but in a good way. A bias for truth, honesty and clarity is refreshing, particularly nowadays. He is sometimes syndicated here, and I find him very readable.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 12:59 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Time for a lesson in critical reading, it appears. You claim Sowell (whom we both know you're no fan of) is being "inexcusably careless with the truth or his research." Let's analyze.

It appears you believe Sowell's fault is you believe he claimed the media initially reported all of the museum's collection lost, when none of it was.

Sowell said:

Quote:
While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which various items were missing.


What specific "media condemnation" is Sowell referring to here? He doesn't specify. But we know from the article you linked to, that:

Quote:
Thanks to the foresight of the museum staff, the losses were less severe than than initially reported in the media, when a total loss of this collection was predicted.


We know that the media "initially reported ... a total loss of this collection." It appears that what Sowell is referring to when he refers to "various items," are those items that were missing, but not actually lost. He does not specify what "various items" he is referring to. But, notably, he does not refer to the entire collection of the museum, and instead refers to "various items." Had he intended to refer to the entirety of the museum's collection, which you seem to have concluded he did, he would probably have done so.

Now, if Sowell had instead written, "While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which its entire collection was missing," you would have a valid point.


This is largely nitpicking bollocks.

The museum was comprehensively looted, and it doesn't matter whether 20% or 80% is items were taken....no doubt the best ones were selected, and certainly the most transportable and easily-hidden ones.
As I understand it, the museum was not even properly catalogued and work to itemise the contents was ongoing, before the invasion.

I know you're talking about media bias here, but basic fact should not be overlooked. Priceless antiquities in Iraq have been stolen, historical sites of supreme importance destroyed.

It is reported that the only building in Baghdad to have been protected from looting in the first weeks of the invasion was the Oil Ministry, where geological records were kept.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 01:07 am
Ticomaya wrote:
What comments are required, Joe? Treating the prisoners humanely is not a change in US policy, and that is repeated in the Pentagon memo from Gordon England:

Quote:
It is my understanding that, aside from the military commission procedures, existing DoD orders, policies, directives, execute orders, and doctrine comply with the standards of Common Article 3 and, therefore, actions by DoD personnel that comply with such issuances would comply with the standards of Common Article 3. ... In addition, you will recall the President's prior directive that "the United States Armed Forces shall continue to treat detainees humanely," humane treatment being the overreaching requirement of Common Article 3.



I've seen enough reports and photographs of what is interpreted as humane treatment by these self-righteous and deeply dishonourable people, to give that statement the appropriate credence.

Not forgetting the statement (I may unintentionally paraphrase slightly) that "treatment which does not result in organ failure is not torture."
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 03:19 am
I repeat: this is not about humane treatment, this is about this:

The Court declared that the Guantánamo detainees were covered by a provision of the Geneva Conventions known as Common Article 3. It prohibits cruel and inhumane treatment and requires that prisoners receive "all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized people."

By trying to deflect the argument to humane treatment you miss the more important part which is that the Bush Administration must finally act within the laws of civilized nations.

They may yet find a way not to, but at least the USSC has stood firm as the administration has fallen into shameful and unlawful behavior.

Joe(What, we are not the final authority on everything?)Nation
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 06:42 am
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
You are correct...I have little respect for Sowell and the above is a perfect example of why I don't. The truth or accuracy are less important than his political agenda. You or I could mail him the relevant and correct information but the chances of us ever seeing a correction (have you ever seen him do such?) would be perhaps zero.


Yes, chance of a correction = zero. Sowell would likely reply by trying to explain to you what I tried to explain to you, albeit with bigger words, but you wouldn't believe him either, so I say let's not.


You are playing possum again, possum. EhBeth said "stupid", but I'll reduce the indictment out of good will. You avoid everything of importance here to in order forward your (and Sowell's) insistence that the media has been unfair to the Bush administration. And there's that curious resistance to admitting Sowell's inaccuracy or ingenuousness. We get NO sense from him of how great the loss has been.

But let's say, for arguments sake, that the sentences in question are merely insufficiently clear and that's where our problems sits.

But that is not all he (and you are guilty of in the same small passage. This is Sowell...
Quote:
While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which various items were missing.


This is your rewrite of Sowell...
Quote:
"While military action was still raging in the early days of the Iraq war, there was media condemnation of our troops for not adequately protecting an Iraqi museum from which its entire collection was missing,"


He forwards another falsehood here, and then you do too, likely without even being aware of it. Both of you fall to this out of laziness or out of an habituated propaganda line or worse.

You both claim that the press criticized "the troops". How mean of the press. But that's an untruth. The criticism both in the press and from the anthropological community was directed towards the decisions and ommissions of Rumsfeld's office and the military command under him, not "the troops".

It would be a fine thing if you and Sowell played this straight, tico. The unrelenting partisan push doesn't serve the principles of truthfulness and it's tough to imagine how we are going to end up in the right place if we make truthfulness, clarity and accuracy as inferior considerations.

It seems apparent that neither you nor Sowell nor Rumsfeld have any notion at all of the value of what has been lost. Take just the 'cylinder seals' mentioned in the article I linked. These represent the origins and evolution of written language for the entire western world. (I'll do this briefly, it is important).

When the sumerians made a business deal (I sell you three goats) the cylinders functioned as an invoice or promissory note. We would mold three little figurines of goats, then roll them in clay, then you would mark that sealed roll or cylinder with your own personal stamp (really just like the red wax seal and stamp tecnique) and give it to me. Effectively, that meant you (your stamp) owed the bearer of the cylinder three goats. A wonderful part of this story is what happened next. Somebody, somewhere finally twigged that molding little figurines and rolling them in a cylinder was not the brightest way to do this task. Why not just make a quick incised drawing of the goats on the clay. But it took something like a thousand years for that seemingly obvious idea to dawn on that somebody (a fine example of how 'tradition' can impede). Then, slowly, we are off to incised symbols representing phonic elements and written language as we know it.

It takes a deep and abiding anti-intellectualism to skirt or ignore how important to our understandings of ourselves the contents of that museum are. Or were.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 07:07 am
McTag wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
What comments are required, Joe? Treating the prisoners humanely is not a change in US policy, and that is repeated in the Pentagon memo from Gordon England:

Quote:
It is my understanding that, aside from the military commission procedures, existing DoD orders, policies, directives, execute orders, and doctrine comply with the standards of Common Article 3 and, therefore, actions by DoD personnel that comply with such issuances would comply with the standards of Common Article 3. ... In addition, you will recall the President's prior directive that "the United States Armed Forces shall continue to treat detainees humanely," humane treatment being the overreaching requirement of Common Article 3.



I've seen enough reports and photographs of what is interpreted as humane treatment by these self-righteous and deeply dishonourable people, to give that statement the appropriate credence.

Not forgetting the statement (I may unintentionally paraphrase slightly) that "treatment which does not result in organ failure is not torture."


I read a story about how dogs are treated in England. I can't believe all you Brits would treat your dogs so poorly. It's disturbing that you guys treat your dogs with no humanity and are so cruel. I don't believe any Brit has room to talk about humanity after reading about such barbaric treatment.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 07:25 am
In a speech at the Heritage Foundation Tuesday, Hoekstra suggested that terrorists have infiltrated the U.S. intelligence community in order to co-opt the press into undermining America's war effort.
Quote:
"More frequently than what we would like, we find out that the intelligence community has been penetrated, not necessarily by al-Qaida, but by other nations or organizations...I don't have any evidence, but from my perspective, when you have information that is leaked that is clearly helpful to our enemy, you cannot discount that possibility."


I post this as a plea to you guys.

Hoekstra's statement is the mirror image of the Joseph McCarthy period.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 07:37 am
blatham wrote:
Hoekstra's statement is the mirror image of the Joseph McCarthy period.

Next thing, blatham, you are going to make excuses for the infiltration of the legal system by a rouge group called "defense lawyers". Defense lawyers have proven clearly helpful to rapists, murderers, and even terrorists. Yet libruls like yourself celebrate their activities, and applaud the way they keep us from giving them scum a fair trial and hang 'em. I mean, how treasonous can you get? Sir, at long last -- have you no decency?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 08:04 am
I'll have you know, evil german, that I, precisely and exactly like Ann Coulter, am filled to bursting with decency in all aspects of living outside of the bedroom.

Here's an interesting piece on the contemporary WSJ, by the way... http://observer.com/20060717/20060717_Gabriel_Sherman_pageone_offtherec.asp

Several days ago, I found myself standing in the grocery store lineup (which is managed very much like the "soup nazi" episode) with Paul Gigot. I didn't kick him in the shins as he is actually quite a big larger than he appears on TV. Hell, even his girlfriend/wive/whatever was bigger than me.

I'm reading Suskind's new book. Definitely recommended reading. It's written in something like a novel style (not unlike Clarke's book) and isn't well cited but it provides a wonderful peek into things. He doesn't pussyfoot around the dangers of radical Islam nor around the dangers of the particular ideological extremism of this administration.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 09:01 am
Joe Nation wrote:
I repeat: this is not about humane treatment, this is about this:

The Court declared that the Guantánamo detainees were covered by a provision of the Geneva Conventions known as Common Article 3. It prohibits cruel and inhumane treatment and requires that prisoners receive "all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized people."

By trying to deflect the argument to humane treatment you miss the more important part which is that the Bush Administration must finally act within the laws of civilized nations.

They may yet find a way not to, but at least the USSC has stood firm as the administration has fallen into shameful and unlawful behavior.

Joe(What, we are not the final authority on everything?)Nation


I thought the point that you were agreeing with blatham about was that Tony Snow was not telling the truth, judging by your highlighting Snow's, "It's not really a reversal of policy," remark along with blatham's, "Jesus Christ! Do these people even have it within themselves to speak honestly?!," and your response, "no." Putting Snow's comment into context (at least into the context of the quote provided by blatham:

The author of blatham's article wrote:
White House spokesman Tony Snow confirmed the new approach, according to wire service reports, saying that while detainees have been treated humanely, "we want to get it right. . . . It's not really a reversal of policy."


They have had a policy of treating detainees humanely, so that's not a reversal of policy. That's what I was responding too, because that's the point you made. You may think "this is not about humane treatment," but that's what Snow was talking about.

Now, if all you wanted to do was say that the "Bush Administration must finally act within the laws of civilized nations ... as the administration has fallen into shameful and unlawful behavior," you should have done so.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2006 10:14 am
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 07:33 am
tico

Do you EVER turn to research or sources which aren't affiliated with the political right? Your author here is, as you likely understand, a central figure in Campus Watch. The mission statement of the forum you've linked...
Quote:
Mission
The Middle East Forum is a think tank whose goal is to define and promote American interests in the Middle East, defining interests to include fighting radical Islam (rather than terrorism), working for Palestinian acceptance of Israel, urging the Bush administration to better manage its democracy efforts, reducing funds going to the Middle East for energy purchases, more robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia, and containing the Iranian threat. The Forum also works to improve Middle East studies in North America.

And there is this wonderful line from the article...
Quote:
Western archaeologists speak the language of scholarly authority, pacifism, and universalism.
Those darned academics, prticularly archaeologists. You can depend on them everytime for political bias. Unlike us, an organization funded and designed entirely and only to forward a specific political agenda.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 08:19 am
Tico, Blatham has declared me unworthy to debate. But ask him how many sources he uses that are not 'infiltrated by the left" Smile
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 12:15 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Tico, Blatham has declared me unworthy to debate. But ask him how many sources he uses that are not 'infiltrated by the left" Smile


Tough to imagine who or what might not be considered infiltrated (love that word, particularly in its graceful quotation marks). A day or two ago, okie surmised that "leftist underlings" were functioning within Fox news staff. A deviant thought got through, but okie's keen perceptions ain't gonna be missing that sort of stuff. Six toes bad.
0 Replies
 
 

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