3
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 03:55 pm
oh, please. Socialized medicine is a "liberal freedom". extensive welfare programs is a "liberal freedom", the lack of personal responsibility is a "liberal freedom".

People in Denmark get what, 3 months paid time off so others can fill in for them? What is the tax rate in Denmark? is it 90% yet?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 03:57 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well after thinking about it, it was Danish embassies they're attacking rather than stuff inside Denmark. But nevertheless, it's fun to see how progressive all European countries are unless it is convenient to make one conservative. Smile


I'll repeat the operational words here: "after thinking about it"

Good thing you noticed, though.

:wink:
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 04:10 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Being tough on immigration makes them non-liberal?


Good point. I was mistaken. After all, I would characterize Bush as non-liberal. And yet he said in the State of the Union speech

George Bush wrote:
We hear claims that immigrants are somehow bad for the economy -- even though this economy could not function without them.



...


Either that, or Denmark is even more conservative.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 04:32 pm
So, let's reiterate...

Cheney accidently shoots a hunting buddy on a ranch. The SS doesn't allow the local police to interview Cheney until the next day (on whose orders?). The lady who owns the ranch confers with Cheney (that's what she says) or didn't confer with Cheney (that's what his office says) as to what to tell the press. After some 22 hours, she calls the local paper because that's how the WH standardly releases information - via civilians to small town newspapers. The lady says that the victim was "bruised more than bloodied". Bad bruising apparently as some 5 to 200 pellets bruised themselves right into the fellow's body with at least one bruising its way to his heart.

How the fukk can you people believe anything this administration tells you any longer? It just beggars belief that you do.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 04:34 pm
blatham wrote:
tico said
Quote:
And when the next large terrorist attack occurs in your town, blatham, every American will be pondering what the government didn't do to protect the country.

Yes, a reasonable question too. But of course, if there is any attack, this administration will say, "See! We were right. There was big danger." but if there is no attack, they will say, "See! We were right. We protected you." ....


Yes, the Bush plan is right either way. I understand that makes you upset.

blatham wrote:
Quote:
The major questions everyone was asking after 9/11 were: "Why didn't we know it was coming?" "How did our intelligence fail?"

That is actually not quite the full story. What you've missed from the initial short-lived debate at that time is highly relevant. "Why do they hate us so deeply?" was being asked in malls and barbershops across the country, for a few days. They the hate campaign began and the honest reflection ceased. That is more than unfortunate, it is morally criminal, because now your country is hated far more deeply and broadly than at that earlier time and this administration has managed to create more enemies than the rest of us dreamed that such incompetent leadership might manage.


I didn't try to identify all the questions that were asked, but as I said, the two I mentioned were the major ones. In fact, they were so major a Commission was appointed to look into those questions. The Commission was not tasked with figuring out why they "hate us so deeply."

blatham wrote:
Quote:
It's all well and good for you and Cyclops to argue right now that this program is unnecessary and ineffective, but you know as well as I do (if you will take off your partisan blinders) that the government will be criticized if it didn't do this program -- or everything it could possibly do to gather enough intelligence to prevent the attack.

Do the program, you nincompoop.


Nincompoop? Did I call you an "Old Fart"?

blatham wrote:
But follow the laws in doing so. Retain the prudent system of checks and balances that your framers wisely devised. And acknowledge that past experience shows us that intelligence services are sooner or later going to turn their beady little eyes inward to find the evil lucking in the hearts of Quakers.


What Constitutional checks and balances do you think prevent the President from gathering foreign intelligence through warrantless electronic surveillance? Those added by a law passed by Congress that arguably takes away an inherent power of the Executive?

blatham wrote:
Quote:
It also seems rather naive for you to hold the belief that you know everything the NSA has learned about al Qaeda through this program. I know you rely on your NYT to leak all the classified information that's fit to print, but I gotta believe there's stuff going on they're not privvy to. I suspect there have been inroads made, nuggets gleaned, and tips collected, that have not been commented upon during the McNeil/Lehrer News Hour. This on top of the attack(s) we know (courtesy of the NYT) have been prevented because of this program you complain about.

Silly misrepresentation of anything I said. You and I know approximately the same regarding these programs. The difference is that you trust the administration to speak accurately and truthfully. I think your trust is foolishly misplaced, an opinion for which there is very much evidence on my side.


Yes, you and i know approximately the same regarding these programs -- bubkus -- yet you feel qualified to dismiss the effectiveness of the program, and the effect of the disclosure of the program to foreign intelligence gathering.

blatham wrote:
Quote:
So you go right ahead demanding the Administration be hamstrung in its efforts to combat the terrorists that are actively planning on attacking this country.

Even sillier. "Hamstrung" by that darn that constitution! And those dang nab laws! And by the extreme leftist notion that citizens ought to be honestly informed and actually participating in governance. Hamstrung indeed.


Again, point out where in the Constitution it says the Congress can curtail an inherent power held by the President.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 05:38 pm
Tico got a "nincompoop" while all I seemed to merit is "dim" LOL.

Correct, Thomas, re the apology. All blatham requested was a source. 'Twas someone else who is search-engine challenged Smile
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 07:56 pm
Dim, nincompoop, old fart...mere valentines each.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 08:11 pm
Happy Valentine's Day, you drippy sweeties!
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 08:56 pm
Yes, Happy Valentines Day, preferably without buckshot lodged in one's heart.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 08:59 pm
28 guage #9 bird shot, 30 yards, doesn't add up.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 09:07 pm
dyslexia wrote:
28 guage #9 bird shot, 30 yards, doesn't add up.


What choke was he using?
0 Replies
 
StSimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 09:18 pm
Vice President Richard Cheney requests your presence at his annual Valentines Weekend Quail Hunt. This popular event is usually a sellout, however some last minute cancellations have made it possible for you to take rare advantage to attend. Please RSVP.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 09:23 pm
Blatham and Thomas: you both responded as if I'd opined on the legality of the spying. Indeed, I pointedly went out of my way not to. I accept neither of your opinions on the legality any more than I do my own... and I don't feel qualified (nor politically motivated Idea) to offer one.

The fact that the legal advisors in the Whitehouse gave the clandestine operation the green light is sufficient reason for me to believe there is room for debate over the actual legality at the very least. Assumptions either way, IMO, are as premature as they are expected. I've little doubt our legal system will eventually sort it out and attempt to prevent future abuses or false accusations of same.

That being said (and hopefully understood this time): When the commander in chief charged with protecting me feels a covert operation is necessary to assist those in charge of providing that protection, yes, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I only know of one way to keep a secret myself; don't tell anyone. The fact that this has become such a compelling topic for debate, sufficiently illustrates the need for secrecy in the first place. Common sense mandates recognition of the obvious; exposure of a covert spying operation reduces its effectiveness. As Tico pointed out; Blatham's armchair analysis that the operation was a flop is as unsupportable as it is naïve. We can't, and frankly shouldn't, be privy to any sensitive operational data they may have been uncovered and may very well be currently in use to our anti-terrorism benefit. Who coined the phrase "Loose lips sink ships"?

Whether or not this spying is eventually deemed legal or illegal, or who and how many politicians on either side of the aisle opine this way or that, these aren't at the core of the perceptional significance. To the layman, who isn't predisposed to Pro-Bush or Anti-Bush sentiment; the story is pretty easy to read:

Bush attempted to secretly spy on the enemies of our nation in hopes of foiling their plans. Bush's political opponents thought it more important to score political points than to allow this strategy to continue. Go ahead and pretend that constitutional defense was the motivating factor if you wish (as naïve as that would be)... But then factor in the level of importance Joe-public will attach to the Operation and its exposure. At worst; Bush flaunted the constitution in an attempt to defend the American people by subjugating the rights of relatively few for the good of the many. Even IF this is proven true; the perception will remain that Bush and Republicans did everything in their power (and then some) to attempt to prevent more terrorist attacks in the United States. Democrats on the other hand; eagerly sacrificed one of the tools of that defense for political gain (with the feeble, even if noble, excuse of constitutional protection).

Conclusion: Republicans appear even stronger on the issue of Defense while Democrats appear even weaker. Multiply that appearance if it's eventually proven that Bush was within his rights in the first place. Since Defense remains the paramount issue in the eyes of Joe Public; this is a no-win strategy for Democrats and the sooner they figure it out, the better off they'll be.

On a personal note; since I would like to see a shift to a more moderate Republican leadership, I have a vested interest in Democrats not continuing to implode their campaigns with foolish strategies. (Re-insert Timber's picture of excavator burying itself here). Until they can mount a more palatable campaign; the Republican hardliners will have less incentive to defer to more moderate candidates. I'd like to believe the Hard-line Republicans would accept a moderate Republican Nomination before sacrificing the Oval Office completely. Giuliani and Arnold's speeches in the conventions last year lead me to believe this is possible.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 09:39 pm
Quote:
Bush's political opponents thought it more important to score political points than to allow this strategy to continue.


How can you say this? The congressional leaders who were briefed on the program, and weren't supposed to say anything about it, didn't.

For four whole years and two contentious elections, they didn't say anything.

The secret was eventually revealed due to the publishing of an article, not political manuevering by the Democrats.

So I don't think your message will stick under any sort of scrutiny whatsoever; though I agree that this is the way they will see it.

The Democrats have a distinct advantage re: the issue of legality, which is this: the program may or may not be legal, but if we hadn't found out about it, the legality of the program would never have been determined.

Imagine a government where this is how things are done; Programs and decisions may or may not be legal, but we're gonna keep them secret from the public anyways, so who cares about legality? Does that sound like America to you?

I don't think that's a winning message, just as I said earlier that I don't think gov't intrusion into people's lives is a winning message.

If it's okay to spy on phone, is it okay to read email without a warrant? How about your regular mail? If you're really keeping the US safe by scanning everything, how can you omit easily available forms of communication?

No proponent of the president's program will answer those questions for me.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:06 pm
tico
Quote:
And when the next large terrorist attack occurs in your town, blatham, every American will be pondering what the government didn't do to protect the country.


blatham
Quote:
Yes, a reasonable question too. But of course, if there is any attack, this administration will say, "See! We were right. There was big danger." but if there is no attack, they will say, "See! We were right. We protected you." ....


Quote:
Yes, the Bush plan is right either way. I understand that makes you upset.


crowd: He is the Messiah. He is the Messiah.
brian: I am NOT the Messiah. I really am not.
woman in crowd: Only the real Messiah would deny his own divinity.
brian: Oh great. What chance does that give me. OK, I AM the Messiah.
crowd: He IS the Messiah!

tico...you aren't a bad guy. But your membership in the cult of Bush authoritarianism leads you into the silliest places.
0 Replies
 
StSimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:13 pm
blatham wrote:

tico...you aren't a bad guy. But your membership in the cult of Bush authoritarianism leads you into the silliest places.


Laughing
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:21 pm
Part of the problem lies in the removal of what is one of the great tenets of a good democracy - transparency.

As the gov't works for us, the more limited the transparency, the less it works.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:23 pm
One of these days I'm going to have to watch that movie.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:23 pm
blatham wrote:
tico...you aren't a bad guy. But your membership in the cult of Bush authoritarianism leads you into the silliest places.
In terms of perception, Blatham, Tico's response was spot on. Lose/lose situation (politically) for Democrats. Get it? Idea
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 11:09 pm
O'Bill wrote:
On a personal note; since I would like to see a shift to a more moderate Republican leadership, I have a vested interest in Democrats not continuing to implode their campaigns with foolish strategies. (Re-insert Timber's picture of excavator burying itself here)


I share that interest since I've said before that I believe in a strong two-party system. I think we're both going to be disappointed, however, since it's lately become more clear than ever that it's going to take a few more electoral disasters before the Democrats are forced to face their lack of appeal to the electorate.



<I remember Timber's picture Smile Spoke a thousand words.>
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 03/10/2025 at 06:31:43