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Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 07:57 am
OhMyHeck!!!

It's all a Rovian plot Smile
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 08:00 am
Nope. It precedes our chubby friend, but he's a master at utilizing and expanding it.

Are you really so dim about what you ride upon, JW?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 08:02 am
JustWonders wrote:
Hmmm. Foxfyre (who was paraphrasing the exchange between McClellan and Ms. AirheadReporter) got the quote wrong by one word...using "victim" instead of "man", and because someone is clueless about using a search engine, she's practically called a liar.

Hmmm. An apology from Mr. Clueless would be so simple. And adult.


Thanks JW. I wasn't using a search engine. I was paraphrasing from watching the actual press conference. There was definitely more than one airhead at that press conference.

Brace yourselves though guys. The great next national scandal is breaking today and no doubt there will be cries of impeachment and demands for a special prosecutor.'

Cheney did not have the required bird stamp on his hunting license and has been cited.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 08:04 am
I see it one way, you another. It would be nice if an apology was forthcoming to our friend, but I won't hold my breath.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 08:09 am
There is nothing to apologize for. I did not think nor insinuate that she had lied.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 08:12 am
Not to worry. I long stopped expecting or hoping for either intellectual honesty or courtesy from some here.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 08:32 am
blatham wrote:
There is nothing to apologize for. I did not think nor insinuate that she had lied.

I think she had an apology from JTT in mind. S/he is the one who suggested that "evidently you can make this stuff up or at least it appears that way".
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 09:17 am
Quote:
THE DRUDGE REPORT has obtained an email sent Monday evening by Democratic National Committee (DNC) research director Devorah Adler that contains ten opposition research packets on potential 2008 GOP presidential contenders.

In one packet titled "Newt Gingrich: 08 Watch February 2006" a picture of the former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich (R-GA) appears with --- him holding two full plates of food!

The quote underneath the Gingrich photo reads "In His Own Words: Gingrich's Solution To Childhood Obesity: ?'Turn off the TV, cut the fatty diet and get exercise.' [AP, 2/8/06]"

The ten Republicans picked by the Democrat Party include: Sen. George Allen (R-VA), Sen. Sam Brownback (R-KS), Sen. Bill Frist (R-TN), Gingrich, Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R-NY), Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), Gov. Mike Huckabee (R-AR), Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), Gov. George Pataki (R-NY) and Gov. Mitt Romney (R-MA).

One Republican strategist who had seen the opposition research packets said: 'We should expect nothing less than name-calling and referring to one's political opponents as ?'fat' from Howard Dean's Democrat Party.'

Developing...


The photo the Dems will be using of Gingrich:

http://www.drudgereport.com/ng.jpg

Bet they won't use this one though:
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/-/c/ted_kennedy_hooters.jpg

Sorry. I couldn't resist. Seriously, I doubt the Dems will be using photos of their overweight members though.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 09:38 am
Newt has two plates of salad ..... right?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 09:39 am
blatham wrote:
bill wrote
Quote:
I would normally agree that breaches to constitutional rights are paramount, but recognize the need for exceptions to rules on occasion. I don't believe sacrificing a valuable tool against terrorism was justified at this time. Moreover, if constitutional protection was really the motive, I believe it could have been addressed as secretly as the program itself. It certainly didn't have to become the foremost politically motivated talking point for Democrats, eitherÂ… and I think they'll be punished rather than rewarded in public perception.


Add to what cyclo has just pointed out that "sacrificing" ain't the word you want to use, if anything like accuracy or truthfulness is at issue.

Regardless of what the administration claims, there is simply no reasonable grounds to imagine that what has been said about the program will have any consequence regarding how al qaeda will go about its daily business. If over the last three plus years they've managed to avoid detection by the various electronic surveillance techniques that seems pretty clearly because they are avoiding the communication means targetted. Not a leap of genius needed to avoid cel phones etc.

But it serves precisely the PR goals and political strategies (Repubs as strong on defence, dems as weak on defence...see Karl's speech last week) to suggest that programs were damaged. Of course, it also achieves the goal of invalidating any press or whistleblower who speak out. All very predictable stuff.

The fact of this matter is that dems or the press or responsible government employees HAVE TO speak out where the administration acts illegally or unethically or in ways that threaten constitutional governance. To not do so is to betray the values of America's traditions.


And when the next large terrorist attack occurs in your town, blatham, every American will be pondering what the government didn't do to protect the country. The major questions everyone was asking after 9/11 were: "Why didn't we know it was coming?" "How did our intelligence fail?" It's all well and good for you and Cyclops to argue right now that this program is unnecessary and ineffective, but you know as well as I do (if you will take off your partisan blinders) that the government will be criticized if it didn't do this program -- or everything it could possibly do to gather enough intelligence to prevent the attack.

It also seems rather naive for you to hold the belief that you know everything the NSA has learned about al Qaeda through this program. I know you rely on your NYT to leak all the classified information that's fit to print, but I gotta believe there's stuff going on they're not privvy to. I suspect there have been inroads made, nuggets gleaned, and tips collected, that have not been commented upon during the McNeil/Lehrer News Hour. This on top of the attack(s) we know (courtesy of the NYT) have been prevented because of this program you complain about.

So you go right ahead demanding the Administration be hamstrung in its efforts to combat the terrorists that are actively planning on attacking this country. Hold your head high, firm in the belief that you and you alone are fighting to protect American values and traditions by curtailing the Administration's intelligence gathering methods. You only show yourself weak on defense, and that won't bode well for you folks at the polls.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 12:38 pm
tico said
Quote:
And when the next large terrorist attack occurs in your town, blatham, every American will be pondering what the government didn't do to protect the country.

Yes, a reasonable question too. But of course, if there is any attack, this administration will say, "See! We were right. There was big danger." but if there is no attack, they will say, "See! We were right. We protected you." The hypothetical has two sides but your administration cannot be counted on to speak truthfully about either. They can be counted on to promote fear in order to make electoral gain (explicitly propounded last week by Karl Rove).

Quote:
The major questions everyone was asking after 9/11 were: "Why didn't we know it was coming?" "How did our intelligence fail?"

That is actually not quite the full story. What you've missed from the initial short-lived debate at that time is highly relevant. "Why do they hate us so deeply?" was being asked in malls and barbershops across the country, for a few days. They the hate campaign began and the honest reflection ceased. That is more than unfortunate, it is morally criminal, because now your country is hated far more deeply and broadly than at that earlier time and this administration has managed to create more enemies than the rest of us dreamed that such incompetent leadership might manage.

Quote:
It's all well and good for you and Cyclops to argue right now that this program is unnecessary and ineffective, but you know as well as I do (if you will take off your partisan blinders) that the government will be criticized if it didn't do this program -- or everything it could possibly do to gather enough intelligence to prevent the attack.

Do the program, you nincompoop. But follow the laws in doing so. Retain the prudent system of checks and balances that your framers wisely devised. And acknowledge that past experience shows us that intelligence services are sooner or later going to turn their beady little eyes inward to find the evil lucking in the hearts of Quakers.

Quote:
It also seems rather naive for you to hold the belief that you know everything the NSA has learned about al Qaeda through this program. I know you rely on your NYT to leak all the classified information that's fit to print, but I gotta believe there's stuff going on they're not privvy to. I suspect there have been inroads made, nuggets gleaned, and tips collected, that have not been commented upon during the McNeil/Lehrer News Hour. This on top of the attack(s) we know (courtesy of the NYT) have been prevented because of this program you complain about.

Silly misrepresentation of anything I said. You and I know approximately the same regarding these programs. The difference is that you trust the administration to speak accurately and truthfully. I think your trust is foolishly misplaced, an opinion for which there is very much evidence on my side.

Quote:
So you go right ahead demanding the Administration be hamstrung in its efforts to combat the terrorists that are actively planning on attacking this country.

Even sillier. "Hamstrung" by that darn that constitution! And those dang nab laws! And by the extreme leftist notion that citizens ought to be honestly informed and actually participating in governance. Hamstrung indeed.

Quote:
Hold your head high, firm in the belief that you and you alone are fighting to protect American values and traditions by curtailing the Administration's intelligence gathering methods. You only show yourself weak on defense, and that won't bode well for you folks at the polls.

Of course, there are more Americans who now hold Bush untrustworthy than those who agree with you. More people in western countries think Bush a greater danger than was Sadaam. Of course I'm not alone. Nowhere near being alone. The list of Republican senators and congressmen, not to mention citizens, who are joining with the position I support re intel gathering grows daily.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 12:47 pm
Blatham,
I have 2 questions for you...

1. Since you live in Canada and arent an American citizen,why does it really matter to you what our govt does?

Their actions dont affect or include you.

2.Does the Canadian govt inform its citizens of EVERYTHING they do,no matter what it is?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 01:38 pm
What Will Europe Really Do?
By Victor Davis Hanson

Nothing is quite as surreal as the Islamic world's fury at the liberal and innocuous Danes. How could anyone wish to burn their embassies and kill their citizens, when they have always offered all the politically correct, multicultural platitudes and welcomed in any and all from the Middle East?

Now the furor over the cartoons, coming on the heels of the bombings in Madrid and London, the French rioting, the murders in Holland, and the failed European negotiations with the Iranian theocracy have shaken Europe to its foundations.

If the most liberal and tolerant states in Europe such as Holland and Denmark have the most problems with Islamic radicals, then what does that say about the continent as a whole? Why were not the calculating jihadists singling out a more unapologetic Catholic Poland that has larger contingents in Iraq and is far prouder of its Christian roots?

Do the Europeans sense that the more open, free-wheeling and non-judgmental the culture, the more it is hated by the jihadists? If Europe as a whole is more pro-Palestinian than the United States, disapproved of Iraq, and yet is still hated as much, is magnanimity at last exposed as appeasement?-earning only contempt from an emboldened enemy?

Don't look, however, for any overt expression of alarm. It is too much to ask of the European Union for now to go on the record supporting the right of Danish free expression or to demand an embargo of Iran as it approaches nuclear autonomy. Instead, expect the European reaction to be far more subtle: the same old public utopian rhetoric, but in the shadows a newfound desire to galvanize against the threat of Islamic fascism.

Here is what we can probably anticipate. First will come a radical departure from past immigration practices. Islam will be praised; the Middle East assured that Europe is tolerant?-but very few newcomers from across the Mediterranean let in.

There will be continued public furor over the American efforts in Iraq, but far greater secret efforts to coordinate with the United States?-in everything from isolating the Assad regime in Syria to rethinking missile defense. For the past three years the post-colonial Europeans have wished the Americans to learn their imperial lessons by failing in Iraq. Yet it may well be that many in private will now wish us to succeed, if only in the hopes that such Middle East democracies will be less likely in the future to turn loose their mobs to burn European embassies and threaten their citizens.

We won't see much public condemnation of Hamas, but more likely quiet efforts to pull the plug slowly on subsidies for such terrorists. The Europeans praised Arafat, then learned that he was singularly corrupt. Nothing disturbs a European more than to be swindled and damned as immoral in the process. Subsidies to Jew-hating Hamas terrorists only ensure both.

Europe will still talk about bringing Turkey into the fold of the West, but de facto is horrified at the thought that millions of a religion that empowers so many to go berserk over a few cartoons might soon comprise the most populous nation of Europe. I doubt any European diplomat will invest any political capital at all in restarting in earnest Turkish/European Union talks.

We can also look forward to more bizarre pronouncements such as Jacques Chirac's warning about the French nuclear deterrent. In point of fact, Europe has no real defenses against a 9/11-like attack. They know it. So do the terrorists.

Crash an airliner into the dome of St. Peter's or knock down the Eiffel Tower tomorrow: Europe has no mechanism to hunt down the perpetrators in the Hindu Kush, the Bekka Valley, or the wilds of Iran?-much less, like the United States, to hold a rogue regime responsible.

Frustrated by its lack of military resources, but cognizant of the classical need to warn an enemy that more is to be lost than won from starting a war, France is reduced to bluster about nuclear weapons?-threats that probably are either not believed or welcomed by the jihadists. In lieu of a credible military, Europe will send more tiny contingents to Afghanistan, remind the world that Britain and France are nuclear, and somehow hurry up to construct a conventional deterrent where there is now none at all.

Finally, the Europeans who despised the unilateral and preemptory George Bush will start to grate at his new multilateral side even more. Be careful what you wish for, especially when an American leader may now not necessarily be such an easy target of caricature?-or may not always do the dirty work of fighting jihadists from Pakistan to the Sunni Triangle.

Instead, by letting the Europeans take the lead with the Iranian negotiations, and keeping nearly silent about the cartoon hysteria, the United States essentially has told the Europeans, "Here is the sort of restrained sober and judicious global diplomacy that you so welcome."

Because of slated troop withdrawals from European bases, and a new American weariness with the old anti-Americanism, some Europeans are beginning to recoil at the idea that they might well be on their own?-and in a war against fanatical enemies that they have appeased and without rational friends that they have estranged.

In response, we may see less of the anti-American rhetoric and a return to the Cold War slogans of a "strong Atlantic Alliance" and "an essential Nato," as nuclear jihadists replace the fear of 300 Soviet divisions.

So now Europe is being thrust right into the middle of the so-called war against Islamic fascism. Once threatened, it will either react with a newly acquired Churchillian maturity to protect its civilization, or cave, in hopes that even more Chamberlain-type appeasement will satisfy the Islamists.

It should be a fascinating spring ahead.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 01:50 pm
Don't you wonder why there are no similar riots and demonstrations here in the United States considering that we're the Great Satan and all? There are destructive riots and demonstrations by ordinary Americans when a sports team wins or or loses or the President shows up somewhere or some other catalyzing event. But no Islamo-facists taking to the streets to pillage, burn, and murder.

Could it be that Homeland Security is actually doing a good job of protecting us after all?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 02:17 pm
Hmmmm.... Hanson! You've got to appreciate these gems, even though he often enough gets the facts a bit wrong. A few quick annotations...

Victor Davis Hanson wrote:
If the most liberal and tolerant states in Europe such as Holland and Denmark have the most problems with Islamic radicals, then what does that say about the continent as a whole?


Yes, "if". Only that Denmark has the most rigid laws of almost all European countries on immigration. You can't move Denmark without fulfilling a number of conditions, even when you're married to a Danish citizen. You must be older than 24 years. The attachment of both of the spouses or registered partners to Denmark must be greater than their attachment to another country (the so-called attachment requirement). The resident in Denmark must be a citizen of a Nordic country. And so on and so on... To call Denmark the "most liberal and tolerant" state when it comes to immigration is just a wee bit ridiculous.

(Listen to Hanson. Denmark. The most liberal nation on Earth.)


Victor Davis Hanson wrote:
Why were not the calculating jihadists singling out a more unapologetic Catholic Poland that has larger contingents in Iraq and is far prouder of its Christian roots?


And why is Hanson so enamoured with Poland? Because they were blindly following America into Iraq? No. Can't be the reason.

(Follow America, and Victor will love you, too.)


Victor Davis Hanson wrote:
Don't look, however, for any overt expression of alarm. It is too much to ask of the European Union for now to go on the record supporting the right of Danish free expression


Right. Even when we are trying to emulate the United States, it is not good enough:

Quote:
Washington on Friday condemned caricatures in European newspapers of Islam's Prophet Mohammad, siding with Muslims who are outraged that the publications put press freedom over respect for religion.


Or was that just a mistake, siding with the Muslims?

(Either. Or. Please let us know when you've made up your mind.)


Victor Davis Hanson wrote:
In point of fact, Europe has no real defenses against a 9/11-like attack. They know it. So do the terrorists.

Crash an airliner into the dome of St. Peter's or knock down the Eiffel Tower tomorrow: Europe has no mechanism to hunt down the perpetrators in the Hindu Kush, the Bekka Valley, or the wilds of Iran


Unlike the United States, of course. They have all the defenses necessary (like, wiretapping phone calls). And they have all the mechanisms in place to hunt down the guys behind those attack. Like that Osama guy, yaknow. That was splendid.

(Everything is fine. 9/11 could never again happen in the US.)



So. Weak analysis. On another note, thousands of people were protesting against the cartoons in Pakistan today. They shouted "Death to the United States".

So at least Hanson isn't the only one to get almost everything wrong....
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 02:36 pm
Being tough on immigration makes them non-liberal? Huh. I guess all those others liberal freedoms they have mean nothing.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 02:43 pm
They must have liberal enough immigration laws to let in enough Muslims to riot.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 02:45 pm
The reason they needed to implement those restrictive immigration rules was directly BECAUSE of the liberal social programs to be found in Denmark...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 02:47 pm
Well after thinking about it, it was Danish embassies they're attacking rather than stuff inside Denmark. But nevertheless, it's fun to see how progressive all European countries are unless it is convenient to make one conservative. Smile
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 03:49 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Being tough on immigration makes them non-liberal? Huh. I guess all those others liberal freedoms they have mean nothing.


Note where the freedoms come from, LIBERAL freedoms.

"conservative freedoms" is an oxymoron.
0 Replies
 
 

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