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Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 07:38 am
Throughout the years of negotiations, we have insisted on peace with honor. In my addresses to the Nation from this room of January 25 and May 8, [1972] I (Richard M. Nixon) set forth the goals that we considered essential for peace with honor.

In the settlement that has now been agreed to, all the conditions that I laid down then have been met. A cease-fire, internationally supervised, will begin at 7 p.m., this Saturday, January 27, Washington time. Within 60 days from this Saturday, all Americans held prisoners of war throughout Indochina will be released. There will be the fullest possible accounting for all of those who are missing in action.

During the same 60-day period, all American forces will be withdrawn from South Vietnam.

The people of South Vietnam have been guaranteed the right to determine their own future, without outside interference.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 07:41 am
The Nixon regime, beginning with his first election victory and continuing with his re-election four years later, although appearing to signify the 'wind-down' phase of the war, initiated one of the most disturbed periods in US history. With his coterie of right-wing Republican 'hard men' buttressed by the erstwhile 'liberal' Republican Henry Kissinger, he literally poured oil onto the already troubled waters of US society. Kissinger, during the primary election campaigns of 1968, had backed millionaire 'liberal' Republican Governor Nelson Rockefeller of New York. In a well-publicized statement Kissinger declared that Nixon was "unfit to be president". The American people would eventually come to the same conclusion as he was driven from office but after the election Kissinger hitched his wagon to that of Nixon. He had also stated that Nixon was "the most dangerous" of all the candidates running for office in 1968. He had even confessed to "an American diplomat that he would have to abstain" rather than vote for either Nixon or Humphrey (the Democrats' candidate).

Nevertheless, the Democratic liberal establishment believed that Kissinger would act as a check on Nixon: "Excellent... very encouraging," said Arthur Schlesinger. Another declared, "I'll sleep better with Henry Kissinger in Washington." (1) Not many Vietnamese or Cambodians, or for that matter Chileans, would approve of these sentiments. Apart from his dirty work in Vietnam, Cambodia and elsewhere, Kissinger also helped to prepare the overthrow in 1973 of the democratically elected government of socialist Salvador Allende in Chile. He had signified his intentions when Allende was elected in 1970: "I don't see why a country should be allowed to go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people." (2) Moreover, when the Shah of Iran asked in 1972 for secret American military aid to be given to Kurdish rebels in Iraq, Kissinger agreed despite objections from CIA agents in Tehran. When the Shah later cuddled up to Iraq, the Kurds were cut off and 35,000 killed and an extra 200,000 refugees created. Kissinger also helped to channel funds to a neo-fascist group in Italy, hoping to harm the Communist Party of Italy as a result.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 07:51 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Yes, Walter, that article is an excellent example of the Leftist mushy headed kind of thinking that sensible people on both the Right and Left reject. Recognizing error is one thing. Keeping one focus there so that nothing is done toward a solution is quite another.

I think it is better to expend more energy on solving a problem instead of frothing at the mouth that there is one.

I also think it best to identify the actual problem and have the will to solve it instead of using it as the vehicle to do more USA bashing by America haters.

The first step in any problem solving is recognizing and defining the problem.

Simple question that anyone can answer based on the NIE and state department terrorism summaries. Is Iraq creaing more terrorism? The only possible answer is yes.

The problem is that Iraq is creating more terrorists. Denial that the problem exists is not going to solve it. Recognizing that it is a problem is hardly "bashing". It is the first step in solving it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 08:09 am
I don't know that anybody says there is no problem. And until the NIE report is declassified, I don't think any of us know what is in it other than what has been selectively leaked. Apparently the Bush administration is not afraid of the contents of it since they are declassifying most of it so the whole picture can be seen and not just that useful to the anti-American, anti-Iraq group.

But finding the best solution for the problem should be everybody's first priority.

As for comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam, here I think we do have to look to history for some guidance. According to one of my favorite historian/economist, Vietcong leadership has admitted that they were beaten in the Tet offensive. What kept them fighting on was graphic pictures of war protesters burning American flags and condemning America on television every night. And they accurately predicted this would accomplish what bombs and bullets could not. America blinked, gave up the fight, folded its tents, and went home.

And the results:

NORTH VIETNAM TAKES CONTROL (THIRD INDOCHINA WAR)

30 Apr 75 Saigon surrenders.
Apr-Aug 75 Per UC Berkeley demographer, Jacqueline Desbarats' article "Repression in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam: Executions and Population Relocation," research show an extremely strong probability that at least 65,000 Vietnamese perished as victims of political executions in the eight years after Saigon fell. Desbarats and associate Karl Jackson only counted executions eyewitnessed by refugees in the USA and France to project the rate of killings for the population remaining in Vietnam, and so discarded about two-thirds of the political death reports received, so their figures are likely very conservative. Their death count did not include victims of starvation, disease, exhaustion, suicide or "accident" (injuries sustained in clearing minefields, for example). Nor did they count Vietnamese who inexplicably "disappeared."
2 Jun 75 Official Communist Party newspaper "Saigon Gai Phong" declares that the Southerners must pay their "blood debt" to the revolution.

1975-1985 Within Viet Nam, postwar economic and social problems were severe, and reconstruction proceeded slowly. Efforts to collectivize agriculture and nationalize business aroused hostility in the south. Disappointing harvests and the absorption of resources by the military further retarded Viet Nam's recovery.

1975-1985 A massive exodus from Vietnam began with the change in government; eventually, 2 million people tried to escape. Many braved typhoon-lashed seas only to languish for years in detention camps throughout Southeast Asia. Hong Kong took in many Vietnamese refugees in the 1970s and 1980s. By the mid-1980s, Asia and the rest of the world was suffering from what was dubbed "compassion fatigue" and Hong Kong started trying to force Vietnamese to repatriate, efforts that produced regular riots in the camps.

1976 The first Vietnamese "boat people" come ashore on the northern beaches of Australia after travelling 4,800 km in leaky fishing boats. Over the next decade, tens of thousands of Vietnamese will flee Vietnam as boat people.

1976 South Vietnam and North Vietnam are united in a new Socialist Republic of Viet Nam.

9 Sep 76 Chinese leader Mao Zedong dies.

1976 In China, the Deng-era's Four Modernizations program stressed a need for improvement in agriculture, industry, science and defense. Part of this was introducing the responsibility system for family farm plots, where government got some of what the family produced but the family kept rest.

20 Sep 77 Viet Nam admitted to United Nations.
1978 Vietnamese Prime Minister Pham Van Dong declared that a million people who had "collaborated with the enemy" (about 7% of the South Vietnamese population) had been returned to civilian life from reeducation camps and jail.

VIETNAM INVADES CAMBODIA
1975-1978 Border tension with the Communist government in Cambodia escalated rapidly after the fall of Saigon, and tension remained high throughout the Pol Pot regime's forced relocation and mass murders of their population.

\21 Dec 78 The Vietnamese PAVN forces invade Cambodia and install a pro-Vietnamese government. They will remain for 12 years, with the last Vietnamese troops leaving Cambodia in 1990.

CHINA INVADES VIETNAM
17 Feb 79 China launches invasion of Viet Nam; Chinese suffer approximately 50,000 casualties.

5 Mar 79 Chinese forces withdraw from Viet Nam under a United Nations-brokered agreement.

Note: With the Chinese withdrawal from Viet Nam, General Vo Nguyen Giap has defeated the Japanese, the French, the Americans, the Cambodians, and the Chinese. Now somewhat out of favor with the government, he has recently been in charge of family planning. Birth control is treated as another form of warfare.
SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM STUMBLES ALONG
mid-1980s Vietnam maintains about 140,000 Vietnamese troops in Cambodia and another 50,000 troops in Laos.

As in other communist countries, corruption hinders reforms.
THE WORLD CHANGES

Dec 86 Doi Moi, "New Openness", declared. Free market economy begins. Greater personal freedom.
1991 Cold War ends with the collapse of the Soviet Union.
http://hnn.us/articles/23641.html
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 08:29 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I don't know that anybody says there is no problem. And until the NIE report is declassified, I don't think any of us know what is in it other than what has been selectively leaked.


I don't know why you don't look at the officially declassified pages - in case, you don't trust the "leaked" sources.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 08:31 am
Along those same lines. . .

Infidel Documents
Intelligence, jihadists and the Iraq war debate.

BY FOUAD AJAMI
Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

The scaffolding of the Iraq war is under renewed attack. So there had been no meeting between Mohamed Atta and Iraqi intelligence operative Ahmad al-Ani in Prague; and Saddam's regime was "intensely secular" while al Qaeda was steeped in religious doctrine. Tariq Aziz, once Goebbels to his master, now in captivity, says that Saddam had only "negative sentiments" about Osama bin Laden, and that the despot had issued a decree "outlawing Wahhabism in Iraq and threatening offenders with execution."

The case against the Iraq war now has a new canonical document: a report by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, released on Sept. 8. Opponents of the war--to use their own language against the Bush administration--now "cherry pick" this report, and they find in it the damning evidence that had been their conviction all along. In their eyes, the case for this war was a willful hoax. And on the heels of this report, it was revealed that the National Intelligence Estimate now depicts Iraq as the breeding ground of a new generation of terrorists.

Intended or not, the release of the Senate report, around the fifth anniversary of 9/11, has been read as definitive proof that the Iraq war stands alone, that the terrors that came America's way on 9/11 had nothing to do with the origins of the war. Few will read this report; fewer still will ask why a virtually incomprehensible Arab-Islamic world that has eluded us for so long now yields its secrets to a congressional committee. On the face of it, and on the narrowest of grounds, the report maintains that the link between the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq cannot stand in a Western court of inquiry.

But this brutal drawn-out struggle between American power and the furies of the Arab-Islamic world was never a Western war. Our enemies were full of cunning and expert at dissimulation, hunkering down when needed. No one in the coffeehouses of the Arab world (let alone in the safe houses of the terrorists) would be led astray by that distinction between "secular" and "religious" movements emphasized by the Senate Intelligence Committee. They live in a world where the enemies of order move with remarkable ease from outward religious piety to the most secular of appearances. It is no mystery to them that Saddam, once the most secular of despots, fell back on religious symbols after the first Gulf War, added Allahu Akbar (God is great) to Iraq's flag, and launched a mosque-building campaign whose remnants--half-finished mosques all over Baghdad--now stand mute.

No Iraqi agents had to slip into hotel rooms in Prague for meetings with jihadists to plot against America. The plot sprang out of the deep structure of Arab opinion. We waged a war against Saddam in 1991 and then spared him. We established a presence in the Arabian Peninsula to monitor him, only to help radicalize a population with religious phobias about the "infidel" presence on Arabian soil. The most devout and the most religiously lapsed of the Arabs alike could see the feebleness of America's response to a decade of subversion and terror waged by Arab plotters and bankrolled by Arab financiers. The American desire to launch out of Iraq a broader campaign of deterrence against the radical forces of the region may not have been successful in every way, but the effort was driven by a shrewd reading that, after Kabul, the war had to be taken deep into the Arab world itself.

Strictly speaking, the National Intelligence Estimate--another "canonical" document--is not a finding: It is an assessment of Islamic terrorism and its perceived links to Iraq. (It is odd, and ironic, that the intelligence agencies that had been mocked by liberal opinion for their reporting on Iraq before the war have now acquired an aura of infallibility.) Islamic terror did not wait on the Iraq war. The assertion that Islamic terrorism has "metastasized and spread across the globe" because of Iraq takes at face value what the jihadists themselves proclaim. It would stand to reason that their Web sites, and the audiotapes of their leaders, would trumpet their attachment to the cause of Iraq. It is inevitable that American analysts glued to jihadist cyberspace, and lacking intimate knowledge of Arab ways, would take the jihadists at their word. But Islamic radicals have not lacked for grievances. The anti-Americanism and antimodernism that brought them onto American soil five years ago predated Iraq. For the good part of two decades, jihadist terror blew at will, driven by the conviction in the lands of Islam and its diaspora communities that America was a pampered land with little zeal for bloody struggles.

The declassified portions of the NIE are not particularly profound in the reading of Islamism. Their sociologese is of a piece with a big body of writing on Islamist movements--that the resentments of these movements arise out of "anger, humiliation and a sense of powerlessness" in the face of the West. I dare guess that were Ayman al-Zawahiri to make his way through this report, he would marvel at the naïveté of those who set out to read him and his fellow warriors of the faith. Ayoob al-Masri (Zarqawi's successor in Iraq) would not find himself and his phobias and his will to power in this "infidel document." These warriors have a utopia--an Islamic world ruled by their own merciless brand of the faith. With or without Iraq, the work of "cleansing" Islam's world would continue to rage on.

It was inevitable that the Arabs would regard this American project in Iraq through the prism of their own experience. We upended an order of power in Baghdad, dominated as it had been by the Sunni Arabs; and we emancipated the Shiite stepchildren of the Arab world, as well as the Kurds. Our innocence was astounding. We sinned against the order of the universe, but called on the region to celebrate, to bless our work. More to the point, we set the Shia on their own course. We did for them what they could not have done on their own. For our part, we were ambivalent about the coming of age of the Shia. We had battled radical Shiism in Iran and in Lebanon in the 1980s. The symbols of Shiism we associated with political violence--radical mullahs, martyrology, suicide bombers. True, in the interim, we had had a war--undeclared, but still a war--with Sunni jihadists. But there lingered in us an aversion to radical Shiism, an understandable residue of the campaign that Ayatollah Khomeini had waged against American power in the '80s. We were susceptible as well to the representations made to us by rulers in the Sunni-ruled states about the dangers of radical Shiism.

The case against the war makes much of Iran's new power in Iraq. To the war critics, President Bush has midwifed a second Islamic republic in Iraq, next door to Iran. But Iran cannot run away with Iraq, and talk of an ascendant Iran in Iraqi affairs is overblown. We belittle the Iraqi Shiites--their sense of home, and of a tradition so thoroughly Iraqi and Arab--when we write them off as instruments of Iran. Inevitably, there is Iranian money in Iraq, and there are agents, but this is the logic of the 900-mile Iranian-Iraqi border.

True, in the long years of Tikriti/Saddamist dominion, Shiite political men persecuted by the regime sought sanctuary in Iran; a political party, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, and its military arm, the Badr Brigade, rose in those years with Iranian patronage. But the Iraqi exiles are not uniform in their attitudes toward Iran. Exile was hard, and the Iranian hosts were given to arrogance and paternalism. Iraqi exiles were subordinated to the strategic needs of the Iranian regime. Much is made, and appropriately, of the way the Americans who prosecuted the first Gulf War called for rebellions by the Shiites (and the Kurds), only to walk away in indifference as the Saddam regime struck back with vengeance. But the Iranians, too, averted their gaze from the slaughter. States are merciless, the Persian state no exception to that rule.

We should not try to impose more order and consensus on the world of Shiite Iraq than is warranted by the facts. In recent days a great faultline within the Shiites could be seen: The leader of the Supreme Council for the Revolution in Iraq, Sayyid Abdulaziz al-Hakim, has launched a big campaign for an autonomous Shiite federated unit that would take in the overwhelmingly Shiite provinces in the south and the middle Euphrates, but this project has triggered the furious opposition of Hakim's nemesis, the young cleric Moqtada al-Sadr. Hakim's bid was transparent. He sought to be the uncrowned king of a Shiite polity. But he was rebuffed. Sadr was joined in opposition to that scheme by the Daawa Party of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, by the Virtue Party, and by those secular Shiites who had come into the national assembly with former Prime Minister Iyad Allawi. A bitter struggle now plays out in the Shiite provinces between the operatives of the Badr Brigade and Sadr's Mahdi Army. The fight is draped in religious colors--but it is about the spoils of power.

The truculence of the Sunni Arabs has brought forth the Shiite vengeance that a steady campaign of anti-Shiite terror was bound to trigger. Sunni elements have come into the government, but only partly so. President Jalal Talabani put it well when he said that there are elements in Iraq that partake of government in the daytime, and of terror at night. This is as true of the Sunni Arabs as it is of the Shiites. The (Sunni) insurgents were relentless: In the most recent of events, they have taken terror deep into Sadr City. The results were predictable: The death squads of the Mahdi Army struck back.

It is idle to debate whether Iraq is in a state of civil war. The semantics are tendentious, and in the end irrelevant. There is mayhem, to be sure, but Iraq has arrived at a rough balance of terror. The Sunni Arabs now know, as they had never before, that their tyranny is broken for good. And the most recent reports from Anbar province speak of a determination of the Sunni tribes to be done with the Arab jihadists.


It is not a rhetorical flourish to say that the burden of rescuing Iraq lies with its leaders. No script had America staying indefinitely, fighting Iraq's wars, securing Iraq's peace. The best we can do for Iraq is grant it time to develop the military and political capabilities that would secure it against insurgencies at home and subversion from across its borders. No one can say with confidence how long the American body politic will tolerate the expense in blood and treasure. It would be safe to assume that this president will stay with this war, that its burden is likely to be passed onto his successor. The Iraqis are approaching reckoning time, for America's leaders are under pressure to force history's pace. The political process here at home is not likely to impose a precise deadline for withdrawal. But the Iraqis should not be lulled into complacency, for the same political process is more likely to place limits on this commitment in Iraq.

For their part, the Iranians will press on: The spectacle of power they display is illusory. It is a broken society over which the mullahs rule. A society that throws on the scene a leader of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's derangement is not an orderly land; foreigners may not be able to overthrow that regime, but countries can atrophy as their leaders--armed, here, by an oil windfall of uncertain duration--strut on the world stage. Iran's is a deeper culture than Iraq's, possessed of a keen sense of Persia's primacy in the region around it. What Iranians make of their own history will not wait on the kind of society that will emerge in Iraq.

On the margins, a scholarly tradition in Najaf given to moderation could be a boon to the clerics of Iran. But the Iranians will not know deliverance from the sterility of their world if Iraq were to fail. Their schadenfreude over an American debacle in Iraq will have to be brief. A raging fire next door to them would not be pretty. And, crafty players, the Iranians know what so many in America who guess at such matters do not: that Iraq is an unwieldy land, that the Arab-Persian divide in culture, language and temperament is not easy to bridge.

We needn't give credence to the assertion of President Bush--that the jihadists would turn up in our cities if we pulled up stakes from Baghdad --to recognize that a terrible price would be paid were we to opt for a hasty and unseemly withdrawal from Iraq. This is a region with a keen eye for the weakness of strangers. The heated debate about the origins of our drive into Iraq would surely pale by comparison to the debate that would erupt--here and elsewhere--were we to give in to despair and cast the Iraqis adrift.

Mr. Ajami, a professor at the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins, is the author, most recently, of "The Foreigner's Gift" (Free Press, 2006). He is a recipient of the 2006 Bradley Prize.
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 08:55 am
Yes, I agree, one of the biggest mistakes that could ever be made would be to abandon our friends in Iraq at this stage of the game. And I think the intelligence report clearly makes this point. Rightly or wrongly, we have made Iraq a hill to fight the jihadists on, and it is a very crucial hill.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 09:05 am
Quote:
Tariq Aziz, once Goebbels to his master, now in captivity, says that Saddam had only "negative sentiments" about Osama bin Laden, and that the despot had issued a decree "outlawing Wahhabism in Iraq and threatening offenders with execution."


That's what torture will get you.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 09:10 am
Quote:
fewer still will ask why a virtually incomprehensible Arab-Islamic world that has eluded us for so long now yields its secrets to a congressional committee.

Even if yielding to the WSJ opinion page.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 09:23 am
Quote:
(It is odd, and ironic, that the intelligence agencies that had been mocked by liberal opinion for their reporting on Iraq before the war have now acquired an aura of infallibility.)

What's odder and considerably fuller in irony is that the attacks on the intel community's competence came with full throttle from the administration and its supporters. The administration acted on bad intel. The administration was not to blame for bad intel (see Condi Rice).

Of course, as we know now, the administration sifted the intel for what it wanted and nothing else, sending people back to find what wasn't there, and then telling the public what they felt needed to be said to "fix the evidence" as the Brit document puts it.

As to "auras', it is one of fallibility which now attends anything this administration might suggest is a fact.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 12:01 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I disagree. The Iraqi army and police force are coming along nicely. They aren't ready to handle it all yet but they're already handling a lot of it.


Quote:
Senior US officials have accused the new Iraqi government - which they previously championed - of failing to deal with the scourge of sectarian death squads, which are dragging the country into civil war.
Fresh figures published yesterday show that more than 250,000 Iraqis have been displaced by the sectarian violence since February. The details emerged in a week which, say US officials, has seen the highest number of suicide bombings recorded - half of them aimed at US-led forces.
US: Iraq failing to tackle death squads
0 Replies
 
MarionT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 12:03 am
The Bushites created the intelligence. What do you expect? It will rebound to their advantage. Since they control the input they also control the output.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 05:46 am
Damn cut and run coalition british military types

Quote:
Take UK troops out of Iraq, senior military told ministers

Army chiefs wanted to move forces to Afghanistan but were prevented for political reasons

Senior military officers have been pressing the government to withdraw British troops from Iraq and concentrate on what they now regard as a more worthwhile and winnable battleground in Afghanistan.

...Political arguments, including strong US pressure against British troop withdrawals, have won, at least for the moment. US generals in Iraq privately made it clear they were deeply unhappy about British talk of troop reductions and complained that the British seemed interested only in the south of the country.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1883784,00.html

We know that bit in red will very definitely be true.
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 08:29 am
http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/images/warengland216.jpg
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 08:33 am
WATCH OUT, UNITED KINGDOM


http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/images/warengland216.jpg
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 12:53 pm
From Coleen Rowley...



Yesterday House Republicans, including my opponent in November, John Kline, approved legislation which violates many of the fundamental principles of American justice. This was not a vote to protect America; it was a vote to provide political cover for George Bush's feckless and incompetent leadership.

The only good news is that this bill explicitly prohibits 'cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment' of detainees.

The bad news is that it gives the President the sole authority to determine what meets that standard. George Bush, who has demonstrated that he will pick and choose which laws and constitutional provisions to follow, will likely not feel bound by this provision. He has previously approved interrogation methods only slightly less painful and deadly than organ failure. And despite the prohibition on rough interrogation methods, including torture, information gathered by such methods will still be admissible in court.

Finally, and most egregiously, this bill explicitly denies habeas corpus, the right to challenge one's arrest and detention. It would make it legal for the U.S. to arrest any foreign national, anywhere, detain them indefinitely without charge or trial, and subject them to treatment which the President alone decides is humane. On roughly three dozen occasions that we know of, innocent victims of mistaken identity were abducted, subjected to brutal interrogations for months, and then abruptly released. This is blatantly un-American, and it is beyond belief that John Kline and the Republican-led House could, in good conscience, pass such legislation.

Republican leaders will say it makes America safer, but this claim is flat-out wrong. Just as those immigrants rounded up and held for months after 9-11 turned out to be innocent, the majority of those held in Abu Ghraib were also arrested by mistake; abusing them did not make America safer. There is scant evidence against many of those currently held at Guantanamo Bay, and some are known to be innocent; holding them does not make America safer.

Infiltrating and defeating terrorist networks requires reliable information; rough interrogation tactics such as waterboarding yield the opposite. We have already seen this play out: Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, a captured Al Qaeda operative, was tortured and falsely confessed that Saddam Hussein's government provided chemical and biological weapons training to terrorists. Months later, al-Libi recanted all his claims. The real-life consequences, however, cannot be understated: we are in Iraq based in part on bad intelligence obtained via torture.

And dismissing legal principles which have served America well for over two centuries does not make America safer; rather, it removes the moral authority America once held among nations, and diminishes what it means to be American.

This bill was born out of fear: George Bush's fear of being called to account. He was asleep at the wheel on 9/11. He was wrong about Saddam's ties to al Qaeda, wrong about Saddam's WMD. His ill-conceived invasion of Iraq has been a failure, and last summer, Bush literally fiddled while New Orleans drowned. George Bush knows he cannot keep America safe, so he is illegally tapping our phones, indefinitely detaining those labeled as 'enemy combatants', and ignoring centuries of established legal precedent in the desperate hope that he will stumble on a magical formula for success. He's asked Congress to give him cover for his cowardice, and John Kline and the GOP-led Congress were only too willing to comply. They placed political expedience above the principles that made this country great.

Shame on them. And shame on all of us if we don't stand up and declare that we the people will not be frightened into violating those principles.

Coleen Rowley is a candidate for Congress in Minnesota's 2nd District
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 01:34 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The Leftists on your side of the argument were condemning the US for civilian deaths from Day 1. They continue to cite civilian deaths as the policy of the US. Can you imagine the condemnation if the US had gone in with overwhelming force and flattened any cities that opposed them?

They made a calculated decision to do it surgically for the express purpose of gaining access to taking out Saddam and WMD. They did take out Saddam.

And yes, we can all do post-mortem armchair quarterbacking, but if the initial plan had gone according to plan, Bush would have been lauded as the greatest of all. The fact that it didn't is much closer to the way all wars go, at least before modern times, which is mistakes, costly errors, bad decisions, and incompetency amidst the victories and accomplishments.

Honest people look at all of that. Bush-haters look only at what they can criticize, slur, and condemn.


I have indeed considered the Iraq war a failure from the beginning (even before that). I think too many people died as a result of an unnecessary war, and too many people are still dying as a result of the civil war that was the consequence of toppling Saddam's regime.

And just to clarify this: I'm saying that the 160,000 troops were not enough. I'm not and have never been advocating going in with overwhelming force and flattening cities. My point is that America (plus "coalition") sent enough troops to topple Saddam, but not nearly enough to police Baghdad, not to mention all of Iraq. Yet that is the duty of an invading army, especially if your claim is that you're going to liberate a country and spread democracy, not just bomb it into oblivion. For that task the number of troops were not nearly enough (something that Bush's daddy had realized, btw.)

Anyway, looking at the current situation where Iraq has become a training ground for terrorists, where the situation has deteriorated to civil war and where some 900 people are being murdered every week - what's your analysis? What should be done now?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 01:46 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The Leftists on your side of the argument were condemning the US for civilian deaths from Day 1. They continue to cite civilian deaths as the policy of the US. Can you imagine the condemnation if the US had gone in with overwhelming force and flattened any cities that opposed them?

They made a calculated decision to do it surgically for the express purpose of gaining access to taking out Saddam and WMD. They did take out Saddam.

And yes, we can all do post-mortem armchair quarterbacking, but if the initial plan had gone according to plan, Bush would have been lauded as the greatest of all. The fact that it didn't is much closer to the way all wars go, at least before modern times, which is mistakes, costly errors, bad decisions, and incompetency amidst the victories and accomplishments.

Honest people look at all of that. Bush-haters look only at what they can criticize, slur, and condemn.


I have indeed considered the Iraq war a failure from the beginning (even before that). I think too many people died as a result of an unnecessary war, and too many people are still dying as a result of the civil war that was the consequence of toppling Saddam's regime.

And just to clarify this: I'm saying that the 160,000 troops were not enough. I'm not and have never been advocating going in with overwhelming force and flattening cities. My point is that America (plus "coalition") sent enough troops to topple Saddam, but not nearly enough to police Baghdad, not to mention all of Iraq. Yet that is the duty of an invading army, especially if your claim is that you're going to liberate a country and spread democracy, not just bomb it into oblivion. For that task the number of troops were not nearly enough (something that Bush's daddy had realized, btw.)

Anyway, looking at the current situation where Iraq has become a training ground for terrorists, where the situation has deteriorated to civil war and where some 900 people are being murdered every week - what's your analysis? What should be done now?


What I think should be done now is:
1) The USA and European people and media should get behind an all-out effort for victory. Tell the bad news, of course, but tell the good news along with it with a slant that the people are with the troops and giving them every encouragement with all faith that they are and will be victorious.\

2) The USA and European people and media should provide a united front that terrorism is abominable and will never be tolerated by decent people of the world. Terrorists who refuse to join and become peaceful citizens of the world can expect to be relentlessly hunted down and exterminated as the vermin they are.

3) As much education should be presented as opinion. propaganda or fact as possible that there are no virgins awaiting the sons sacrificed to the glory of Allah when innocent people are targeted and it is possible for all people to enjoy the best that personal freedom, prosperity, and peace can provide.

4) The hands of the military must be untied and they must be given permission and encouragement to do whatever is necessary to bring down the terrorists without fear of being damned in the evening papers or being accused of war crimes.

If we do this, I believe the will of the terrorists will be swiftly broken and we will bring this ugly matter to an end months or years before it will otherwise be done assuming we don't vote in people who will cut and run as we have done too many times before. If we do vote in people will no stomach for victory, I think the possibility of any kind of positive outcome and/or victory will be vastly reduced.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 02:05 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
What I think should be done now is:
1) The USA and European people and media should get behind an all-out effort for victory. Tell the bad news, of course, but tell the good news along with it with a slant that the people are with the troops and giving them every encouragement with all faith that they are and will be victorious.\

2) The USA and European people and media should provide a united front that terrorism is abominable and will never be tolerated by decent people of the world. Terrorists who refuse to join and become peaceful citizens of the world can expect to be relentlessly hunted down and exterminated as the vermin they are.

3) As much education should be presented as opnion or propaganda or fact as possible that there are no virgins awaiting the sons sacrificed to the glory of Allah when innocent people are targeted and it is possible for all people to enjoy the best that personal freedom, prosperity, and peace can provide.

4) The hand of the military must be untied and they must be give permission and encouragement to do whatever is necessary to bring down the terrorists without fear of being damned in the evening papers or being accused of war crimes.

If we do this, I believe the will of the terrorists will be swiftly broken and we will bring this ugly matter to an end months or years before it will otherwise be done assuming we don't vote in people who will cut and run as we have done too many times before.


1) By prohibiting free speech and regulating the media? I mean, how would you want to do that? And, how would it help improve the situation in Iraq?

2) As far as I understand it, that's about the opinion people and the media in the USA and Europe already share. I've not seen anyone glorifying or even siding with the terrorists.

3) I agree partly. However, during war time (or during a civil war), how do you want to educate people? By force? Of course you can help by building schools, by starting all kinds of programs etc. etc. in peacetime....
Apart from that, it's quite a convenient and easy way to declare all those suicide bombers and terrorists only fight because they think 72 virgins will be waiting for them. Might be true for some, but is certainly not nearly the complete picture. Underestimating your enemy, this is, and dangerous, too.

4) "Whatever is necessary" essentially implying committing all kinds of war crimes without oversight. Do you think this is conducive to "winning their hearts and minds" (or is that no longer important)? And do think (re your points 1 and 2) that people and the media should just look the other way when the military is doing "whatever is necessary"?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 02:22 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
What I think should be done now is:
1) The USA and European people and media should get behind an all-out effort for victory. Tell the bad news, of course, but tell the good news along with it with a slant that the people are with the troops and giving them every encouragement with all faith that they are and will be victorious.\

2) The USA and European people and media should provide a united front that terrorism is abominable and will never be tolerated by decent people of the world. Terrorists who refuse to join and become peaceful citizens of the world can expect to be relentlessly hunted down and exterminated as the vermin they are.

3) As much education should be presented as opnion or propaganda or fact as possible that there are no virgins awaiting the sons sacrificed to the glory of Allah when innocent people are targeted and it is possible for all people to enjoy the best that personal freedom, prosperity, and peace can provide.

4) The hand of the military must be untied and they must be give permission and encouragement to do whatever is necessary to bring down the terrorists without fear of being damned in the evening papers or being accused of war crimes.

If we do this, I believe the will of the terrorists will be swiftly broken and we will bring this ugly matter to an end months or years before it will otherwise be done assuming we don't vote in people who will cut and run as we have done too many times before.


1) By prohibiting free speech and regulating the media? I mean, how would you want to do that? And, how would it help improve the situation in Iraq?

Nope. The media would have to do that voluntarily which means they have to get out of their predominantly Leftwing socialist anti-American, anti-military, anti-Bush mindset. In WWII, the American and free European press was 100% behind the effort. We got all the bad news every day but also the victories and triumphs were front page headliners and featured on the movietone news in the theaters. And the press was mostly responsible about NOT leaking information that hamstringed our own efforts and provided useful information and encouragement to the enemy. That's what we need again and the bad guys quickly have no place to hide.

2) As far as I understand it, that's about the opinion people and the media in the USA and Europe already share. I've not seen anyone glorifying or even siding with the terrorists.

Sure you have. Every time you see the US or Britain or Israel condemned for not "understanding the pain, agony, repression, anger, frustration" of the terrorists, for not negotiating, for defending themselves, etc. etc. etc., it loudly broadcasts condemnation of the good guys and HUGE support for the terrorists. The media featured war protests are exactly what kept the Viet Cong fighting on after we had them whipped. They've told us so. (No, don't ask for a link because I don't want to have to hunt one up. I have posted this previously however.)

3) I agree partly. However, during war time (or during a civil war), how do you want to educate people? By force? Of course you can help by building schools, by starting all kinds of programs etc. etc. in peacetime....

You do it exactly the way we combated Tokyo Rose and Baghdad Bob. You get to them via television, newspapers, pamphlets, internet, radio, whatever methods are available to get drilling the message home. Mothers, love your sons! Reject violence and help them grow up free, happy, prosperous. Your leaders are telling you lies. Read your Quran and see the messages of peace there. 90% of Islam rejects violence and destruction. That is what Allah wants you to do.

Apart from that, it's quite a convenient and easy way to declare all those suicide bombers and terrorists only fight because they think 72 virgins will be waiting for them. Might be true for some, but is certainly not nearly the complete picture. Underestimating your enemy, this is, and dangerous, too.

It's only one of many ways to approach the problem. I don't underestimate our enemy one bit. I think all the anti-American, anti-Bush, anti-Western culture, and anti-Israel people do. (Anti in this case are those who criticize us more than they ever criticize the terrorists.)

4) "Whatever is necessary" essentially implying committing all kinds of war crimes without oversight. Do you think this is conducive to "winning their hearts and minds" (or is that no longer important)? And do think (re your points 1 and 2) that people and the media should just look the other way when the military is doing "whatever is necessary"?


No. I trust our military to understand the basic rules. You do not intentionally target citizens and you do whatever you can to mitigate civilian losses. Prisoners will not be treated inhumanely nor are we savages who try to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible on people. But the people must allow the military to do what it HAS to do to take out the terrorists and if that means flattening a town or a neighborhood, so be it. Far better and less costly to do that than have years and years of terrorists attacks inflicting the same mayhem and more, just on a smaller scale. That also means allowing our government to do what it has to do to discover where the terrorists are and target them. And it means condemning those who intentionally thwart that process.

There is no way to justify the use of the atomic bomb on Japan. The loss of life and the suffering was unimaginable. It was inexcusable. Except that it ended a war, saved millions of lives, and freed a people to become a peaceful, productive economic leader in the world.

That's how we have to think about it at least according to the Foxfyre doctrine.

Signatories or rebuttals are welcome.
0 Replies
 
 

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