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Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 11:10 am
Much of this has to do with the raiding of the SS fund in order to offset our terrible finances. If it was actually allowed to grow over time...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 11:13 am
Quote:

The unintelligent aren't starving, they are currently running your federal government. That makes problems for everyone else.


No disagreement here on this one.

Interestingly enough, this conversation, especially seeing as the SS program doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon. Let me ask you, other than privatization, do you see any steps which could be taken in order to help the system function more efficiently?

Cycloptichorn
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 11:21 am
Advocate wrote:
SS is not a great investment, but it does provide a safety net. What is the alternative for many millions who are not astute investors -- is it poorhouses?

I'd say it is money market funds.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 11:31 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Interestingly enough, this conversation, especially seeing as the SS program doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon. Let me ask you, other than privatization, do you see any steps which could be taken in order to help the system function more efficiently?

Depends on what you mean by "the system". If you mean Social Security, the answer is no. Even the conservative economists I have read concede that Social Security is very efficient at what it was designed to do from a purely operational point of view. My problem is with what it is designed to do. If by "the system" you mean the whole political system, you might start by abolishing the electoral college. And then I have this dream about a deal between the parties in which the Democrats let the Republicans voucherize the school system completely. By "completely", I mean vouchers for the full cost of public school schooling. In return, the Republicans let the Democrats turn health insurance over to a single-payer system. This deal would give every party the reform that has the strongest case going for it. But this is so reasonable I know it won't happen.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 12:53 pm
Thomas, you are wrong on almost everything. The older generations made out like bandits on social security. They got a lot more than they put into the plan. This is changing with the higher premiums being charged.

There is a return (about 3 to 4%) on money put in. Plus, SS overs such things as disability, payments to minors, COLAs, etc., not found in private plans.

Facts are such nasty things.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 01:04 pm
Advocate wrote:
Thomas, you are wrong on almost everything. The older generations made out like bandits on social security. They got a lot more than they put into the plan. This is changing with the higher premiums being charged.

I'm not disputing that. It's a common feature of every Ponzi scheme that the first generation of participant makes out like bandids. Indeed, that's why bandids and Roosevelt's federal government like them so much.

Advocates wrote:
There is a return (about 3 to 4%) on money put in.

Source? Which time are you talking about? What was the inflation rate over the period you reference? The interest rate?
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 01:25 pm
Quote:
Even adjusted for inflation, the maximum OASI tax increased almost 900 percent from 1951 to the present. During the same period Social Security benefits also increased, but substantially less than taxes. The maximum retirement benefit in 1951 for a 65-year-old worker was about $5,000 per year in 1995 dollars. At present it is $14,400, a rise of only 188 percent.[10] For those retiring after 1951 the benefits received per tax dollar have deteriorated.


Social Security vs. Private Marketss
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 01:27 pm
Thomas, would you first give me the sources of your statements on Krugman and privatization.
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 02:29 pm
Thomas wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Thomas, you are wrong on almost everything. The older generations made out like bandits on social security. They got a lot more than they put into the plan. This is changing with the higher premiums being charged.


I'm not disputing that.



Which part aren't you disputing, Thomas. Smile

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Actually, I quite enjoy your postings on economic issues.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 04:12 pm
Advocate wrote:
Thomas, would you first give me the sources of your statements on Krugman and privatization.

Krugman on privatization? I said nothing about Krugman statements on privatization. (In the case of Social Security, he's against it.) Instead I said something about Krugman statements on CEOs. My source was a radio interview, which is hard to cite. But the link between CEO compensation and inequality is something he has been making for a long time in his articles about inequality. Examples include this one, this one, and this one. I hope this satisfies your desire for sources. If not, a Google search for "inequality" and "CEO" on pkarchive.org will give you more.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2006 06:23 pm
Thomas, I said "Krugman and privatization," not Krugman ON privatization. I didn't think you could find a source for your statement.

"Privatization" refers to your comments on privatizing social security.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 12:38 am
Thomas- Your links on CEO "gains" are quite good. I read them. However, I need to give you an anecdote( anecdotal evidence, of course, is the weakest kind of evidence) about the returns earned by CEO's in the USA. My best friend has a good deal of money invested in the Stock Market( I would say it is over One and a half Million dollars).

When we discussed the "earnings" of various CEO's, he said--"If a CEO makes my stock rise through his leadership, he can't be paid enough as far as I am concerned".

This is obviously a short sighted comment which has no link at all to what might be called "distributive justice" but I think it mirrors the attitude of many investors in the USA.
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 12:45 am
Here is an interesting take on the "Privatization" of Social Security.

Who is looking into it? Bill Clinton, of all people!!!

Clinton Wanted Social Security Privatized
by Michael Tanner

Michael Tanner is director of the Project on Social Security Privatization at the Cato Institute.
A president decides that Social Security is in need of radical reform. He assembles a team of experts to examine the issue and they conclude that allowing workers to privately invest a portion of their Social Security taxes in individual accounts is a viable way to solve the program's financial problems, increase the rate of return to young workers, and allow low income workers to accumulate real wealth. They conclude that most criticism of individual accounts -- they would be too risky, too costly to administer -- is unfounded. The president leans toward quick implementation.

George Bush? No. Bill Clinton. So much for the myth that Social Security privatization is a "partisan" or "conservative" issue.

According to three former top administration officials, President Clinton was strongly considering the partial privatization of Social Security prior to his impeachment in 1999. The revelation was contained in a paper delivered by David Wilcox, an assistant treasury secretary, Douglas Elmendorf, a deputy assistant treasury secretary, and Jeffrey Liebman, an aide with the National Economic Council, at a Harvard University conference last month.

According to these officials, the Clinton administration spent nearly 18 months secretly studying issues surrounding individual accounts and concluded that:

Individual accounts were administratively feasible and would likely cost $20-30 per year per account to administer. However, to hold down costs, individual investment choices would have to be limited until accounts accumulated some level of minimum balance, perhaps $5,000.


Market risks were not a sufficient reason to oppose individual accounts. Administration analysts found that long-term investment was, in reality, relatively safe. The administration also noted that the current Social Security system contains political risks that may well be worse than market risks.


Concerns over redistribution could be addressed through the adjustment of benefit formulas, matching contributions or other means.



Wilcox, Elmendorf, and Liebman confirmed what many in Washington have whispered about for some time, that, while some in the administration -- -notably Vice president Al Gore and Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin -- -strongly opposed individual accounts, Clinton leaned in favor of them. Indeed, Clinton had his staff consider whether the administrative structure for individual accounts could be set up before Congress acted on any legislation to ensure that the accounts would be in place before Clinton left office. However, Clinton's plans were derailed by his impeachment over the Monica Lewinski affair. Faced with a need to strengthen his liberal base, Clinton abandoned any proposal for significant Social Security reform.

The revelation of Clinton's support for individual accounts is the latest example of the broad-based support for giving workers more control over their retirement funds. Washington has always found it easy to put short hand labels on things: left, right, Democrat, Republican. Therefore, the idea of Social Security privatization is called a "conservative Republican" proposal. But the truth has always been far more complex, with support for individual accounts cutting across ideological and party lines.

Perhaps that is because the facts are neither Democratic nor Republican. Social Security is facing a serious financial crisis, running a shortfall as soon as 2016. In fact, Clinton warned that there were only three possible ways to reform Social Security: 1) raise taxes, 2) cut benefits, or 3) find a way to receive a higher rate of return through private investment. Payroll taxes are already so high and benefits so low that young workers receive a rate of return on their taxes of barely more than one percent, far below market returns. Raising taxes or cutting benefits will only make that bad deal worse.

At the same time, the other flaws of the current Social Security system are becoming increasingly apparent. The program penalizes African-Americans, women, and low-income workers. Benefits are not inheritable and workers have no legal property right to those benefits, leaving their retirement at the mercy of politicians.

Only the third option -- private investment -- solves all of those problems. It preserves Social Security's solvency and increases returns to young workers while allowing workers to accumulate real and inheritable wealth.

Bill Clinton wasn't able to follow through on Social Security reform. That responsibility has now fallen to President Bush. But if workers are given ownership and control over their payroll taxes -- if Social Security is updated and modernized -- that may ultimately be a surprising part of Clinton's legacy.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 12:54 am
Advocate wrote:
Thomas, I said "Krugman and privatization," not Krugman ON privatization. I didn't think you could find a source for your statement.

I made a statement about what Krugman said about inequality and CEO compensation, and provided sources on it. I said I consider Social Security privatization a good thing, for which I need no sources. I said Social Security is a Ponzi scheem, a statement you can judge by googling "Ponzi Scheme" and comparing Social Security with the definitions you find. I said my grandparents didn't get their money's worth on Germany's version of Social Security. This is something I know for a fact, but isn't published in any credible literature. Could you please cite specifically the statements I made that you need sources for? I'll look them up while you look for your sources on Social Security returns.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 02:07 am
Presidential voting irregularities in Ohio being examined

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/washington/31ohio.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 02:32 am
From McTag's link:

Robert F. Bauer, a lawyer from Washington who represented Mr. Kerry and the Democratic National Committee on voting issues before the 2004 election, was skeptical about the critics' case.

"The major discrepancies that they are identifying are not materially different than what has already been highlighted," Mr. Bauer said.

On Tuesday, Mr. Kerry sent a fund-raising e-mail message calling for support for Representative Ted Strickland, the Democrat who is running for governor. Mr. Kerry wrote that Mr. Blackwell "used his office to abuse our democracy and threaten basic voting rights" in 2004.

Multiple suits failed in challenging the 2004 election in Ohio, and most studies after the election concluded that irregularities existed, but that they would not have changed the outcome.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 06:37 am
Thomas wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Thomas, I said "Krugman and privatization," not Krugman ON privatization. I didn't think you could find a source for your statement.

I made a statement about what Krugman said about inequality and CEO compensation, and provided sources on it. I said I consider Social Security privatization a good thing, for which I need no sources. I said Social Security is a Ponzi scheem, a statement you can judge by googling "Ponzi Scheme" and comparing Social Security with the definitions you find. I said my grandparents didn't get their money's worth on Germany's version of Social Security. This is something I know for a fact, but isn't published in any credible literature. Could you please cite specifically the statements I made that you need sources for? I'll look them up while you look for your sources on Social Security returns.


To put it into perspective, many Americans will draw more social security benefits than they paid in. But the average social security recipient now, if he draws social security for 25 years, will draw between $300,000 and $400,000 total. And while the meager income is essential for many of those retirees, it does not provide any kind of reasonable standard of living without supplemental income.

In the care of the government, our social security benefits are spent as soon as they arrive at the Treasury and those IOUs in our 'lock box" that President Clinton promised us--remember that?--are not benefitting from being invested. They aren't even drawing interest.

But if the average social security payee works for 40 years and is allowed to invest 7 percent of his income in government approved reasonably safe stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. and who receives a modest 5 to 7% return on his money will have well over a million dollars in his account at Age 65 and that would provide a reaosnably adequate standard of living while the balance of the principle continues to increase and provide more income.

There would be nothing wrong with the government requiring the payroll deductions and disallowing early withdrawal.

But self directing the funds has distinct advantages over just turning them over to the government:

1) The govenrment couldn't spend it
2) You really do have enough to live on when you retire
3) You provide more financial security for your survivor(s)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 07:31 am
There is no question that George Bush has been a disappointment on some fronts and there is no question that he has done a great job on others. We Bush supporters are usually able to see a mixed bag, appreciate the good and complain/speak out/write our elected officials re the bad.

The Republicans have also been a disappointment on some fronts--most notably in pork barrel spending, their failure to roll back some of the more damaging legislation that has gone onto the books in the last decade or so, and in their failure to address the immigration problem head on. If the execution has been less than exemplary, they have performed commendably on policies related to taxes, the War on Terror, and judicial nominations.

So with the Democrats now salivating at the possibility of them regaining control of Congress in November, we should probably look at what that will mean:

Back to the Congressional Future
Let's think about how the Democrats would govern.

Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

With a little more than two months to go before midterm elections, the polls show Democrats well positioned to win the House after 12 years out of power. So it's not too soon to consider who these Democrats are and how they would govern.

All the more so because we've seen most of these faces and their agenda before. While Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi would be a new Speaker of the House, the 19 primary committee chairmen who would dominate hearings, issue subpoenas and write legislation are agents of change only in the sense of going back to the future. They represent the same liberal priorities that bedeviled Bill Clinton's attempt to govern as a New Democrat from 1993-94, and before that Jimmy Carter in the 1970s. To pick one example, 13 of the 19 voted against the welfare reform that Mr. Clinton signed in 1996 and hailed this month as a triumph of "bipartisanship."

Republicans have done little to deserve re-election, and so perhaps voters will ignore Democratic priorities. But one of the ironies of current politics is that a swing in only 15 House seats would result in a huge ideological shift in the legislative agenda. Most of the House seats in play are "swing" districts held by political moderates. The most liberal seats also tend to be the safest and thus are held by Members who can stay around for the decades needed to become chairmen. Their agenda is not the one those "swing" voters would be endorsing.

Consider the man likely to run the Judiciary Committee, Michigan's John Conyers, from the Congressional class of 1964. He recently made his plans clear in a 370-page report, "The Constitution in Crisis: The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution and Coverup in the Iraq War, and Illegal Domestic Surveillance." The report accuses the Administration of violating no fewer than 26 laws and regulations, and is a road map of Mr. Conyers's explicit intention to investigate grounds for impeaching President Bush.
If you think Republicans have been spendthrift, don't expect much change from Wisconsin's David Obey (class of 1969) at Appropriations. Mr. Obey was one of those Democrats who ripped Mr. Clinton for endorsing a balanced budget in 1995. Rather than cut spending, his goal would be to spend less on defense and more on domestic programs and entitlements.

Ways and Means, the chief economic policy panel, would go to New York's Charlie Rangel (1970), who opposed the Bush tax cuts and recently voted against free trade with tiny Oman. His committee's crucial health care subcommittee would be run by California's Pete Stark (1972), who in 1993 criticized Hillary Clinton's health care proposal because the government wasn't dominant enough. Over at Financial Services, the ascension of Barney Frank (1980) would mean a reprieve for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, despite $16 billion in accounting scandals. His main reform priority has been to carve out a new affordable housing fund from the two companies' profits. And forget about any major review of Sarbanes-Oxley.

Energy and Commerce would return to the untender mercies of John Dingell, the longest-serving Member first elected in 1955, who was a selective scourge of business when he ran the committee before 1994. The Michigan Congressman would do his best to provide taxpayer help to GM and Ford. But telecom companies would probably get more regulation in the form of Net neutrality rules, and a windfall profits tax on oil would be a real possibility.

Remember organized labor? Their champion would be George Miller (1974), who as the man in line to run the education and labor committee is the chief sponsor of the "Employee Free Choice Act," which would make it much easier for unions to organize by largely banning secret elections. Instead, union operatives would be allowed to publicly hound workers into signing "cards" that are counted as votes toward unionization. The Californian also wants to raise the minimum wage and fulfill the National Education Association wish to spend more federal dollars on local school construction.

We also can't forget California's Henry Waxman (1974), among the most partisan liberals and who at Government Reform would compete with Mr. Conyers to see who could issue the most subpoenas to the Bush Administration. And then there's Alcee Hastings, who, should Ms. Pelosi succeed in pushing aside current ranking Member Jane Harman, would take over the House Intelligence Committee. Before he won his Florida seat in 1992, Mr. Hastings had been a federal judge who was impeached and convicted by a Democratic Congress for lying to beat a bribery rap. He would handle America's most vital national secrets.

There would certainly be exceptions to this left-wing revival. Missouri's Ike Skelton (1976) supports a larger military and wouldn't mean much of a change at Armed Services. Colin Peterson (1990) of Minnesota wouldn't change the pro-subsidy bent of the GOP at Agriculture, and Minnesota's James Oberstar (1974) couldn't possibly be worse at Transportation than Alaska Republican Don Young.

The House is only one half of Capitol Hill, and Republicans stand a better chance of holding the Senate, albeit with some losses there too. Mr. Bush will also retain his veto power, and he would finally have to use it. So the amount of liberal legislation that actually became law might not be all that extensive. But the national debate would nonetheless shift notably left. Voters looking to send a message to Republicans this fall may be surprised at their return mail from Washington.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008877
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 09:39 am
Once the public and our lawmakers look into the UK's experience with privatization of government pensions, the issue will be dead as a mackerel.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1093/is_1_43/ai_59480146
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 09:57 am
The mistakes in the British system resulted from lack of oversight and insufficient regulation.

In the Bush plan, government would approve those stocks, bonds, or mutual funds that are considered reasonably stable and safe enough to be an acceptable risk. Only those--which would probably be most of those listed on the DOW, S&P, Nasdaq--would be approved for investment of funds.

The institution through which the funds were invested should be directed by the individual however to avoid potential for government mischief.

The government could however provide a reasonable safety net with some kind of insurance coverage for the funds, up to a specified limit, much as FDIC insurance works, to relieve at least some of the risk to investors. This would still be less costly to government than will be the case when the social security fund goes negative and the government has to start coming up with the difference.

We could well learn from the mistakes made in the UK and avoid those with careful planning and administration.
0 Replies
 
 

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