THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

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That's just it, it is not really possible to determine who is an innocent civilian and who is an insurgent when you are dropping bombs on the whole town.
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I don't know any other alternative at this point. I only know that adding more to the violence by our hands is not good. I for sure don't want to do the same to every town in Iraq.

Not going to bother, ican. We created these madmen - we pushed them over the edge. We have to take responsibility for the chain of events unleashed by our actions.

How can you tell who are the bad guys?

A Simple Rule and a Simple Test for Detecting itm.

Simple Rule:
Dramatically and repeatedly, publicly announce the Simple Rule and the Simple Test.
Require only trained military persons in uniform to perform the Simple Test.

Simple Test:
Are they non-uniformed people in possession of ordnance?
Did they shoot at soldiers
Did they shoot at civilians?
Did they behead prisoners?
Are they shooting at soldiers?
Are they shooting at civilians?
Are they beheading prisoners?
Are they inserting ordnance in holes alongside roads?
Are they inserting ordnance in vehicles?
Are they abetting people to do any of the above?
Are they advocating that people do any of the above?
Are they silent about having witnessed people who have done any of the above?
Are they training people to do any of the above?
Are they cohabiting with, co-locating with, travelling with, or walking with people for whom the answer to anyone of the previous questions is YES?

If the answer to any of these questions about any people is yes, then they are itm and must be exterminated.

It is rumored that if they were reallllllllly pissed they would shoot them, hang them, and then vaporize them to cut back on burial cost ....

Are they cohabiting with, co-locating with, travelling with, or walking with people for whom the answer to anyone of the previous questions is YES?

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Are they silent about having witnessed people who have done any of the above?
Are they training people to do any of the above?
Are they cohabiting with, co-locating with, travelling with, or walking with people for whom the answer to anyone of the previous questions is YES?

U.S. troops kill pregnant woman in IraqJassim's brother, who was wounded by broken glass, said he did not see any warnings as he sped his sister to the hospital. Her husband was waiting for her there.

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," he said. "God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here. They have no regard for our lives."

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Are they cohabiting with, co-locating with, travelling with, or walking with people for whom the answer to anyone of the previous questions is YES?

Wow, who knew that walking or living in the same building as a murderer, also made you a murderer?
Who knew that walking or living in the same building as a genocidal maniac and failing to report that fact to the police made you a murderer? You knew or ought to have known!

Of course, you bear the responsibility for knowing everything about everyone around you. Right? Right.
No! You bear the responsibility for knowing whether or not anyone around you is a genocidal maniac. Continuing your life and the lives of those you love depends on it.

Seems a pretty harsh standard to me. Hope you never sit down on a bus next to a child molestor; who knows what will happen to you?
Fortunately, child molesters are not genocidal maniacs who are just as likely to murder you or me as the person next to you or me. It must be made clear to all Iraqis that those who fail to detect genocidal maniacs in their midst are more likely to be murdered by those genocidal maniacs than they are to be killed by those who murder genocidal maniacs.
Cycloptichorn

Ican wrote:

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Are they silent about having witnessed people who have done any of the above?
Are they training people to do any of the above?
Are they cohabiting with, co-locating with, travelling with, or walking with people for whom the answer to anyone of the previous questions is YES?

You are painting with a very broad brush, as is your wont, Ican

You missed out "Are they having impure thoughts"
You are confused! It's the itm who murder civilians for what they perceive civilians think. They are of the same mentality as that described for BIG BROTHER and his "Inner Party," in NINETEEN EIGHTY FOUR (alias 2084). It is the itm who are genocidal maniacs just like BIG BROTHER and his "Inner Party."

Hell, why don't we just kill them all, in case we've missed any. That'll teach them our love of freedom and justice is not to be trifled with.
We are trying to save the lives of as many otherwise future victims of the genocidal maniacs as we can.

You appear to be siding with the genocidal maniacs.

Do you count? It seems to me that you wish to kill people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time - just to be safe.

What does that make you?

Cycloptichorn

Apparently he also missed 'moving at too high a rate of speed.'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed_7

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U.S. troops kill pregnant woman in Iraq
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Cycloptichorn

Sure I can offer a better solution: leave them alone. Let them self-police.
Your solution is not a better solution because it is an unworkable solution. We tried your solution for the 24 years of Saddam's reign. He murdered about a million Iraqis over that period.

We have a horrendous amount to lose by adopting your solution. The itm have repeatedly declared war on civilians, made war on civilians, and murdered civilians worldwide without the police of any nation able to stop them -- not even our own police regardless of who was president at the time. The itm have repeatedly declared that their objective is to first establish a permanent sanctuary in Iraq after the US leaves, and then to go after the US and all others that do not conform to their doctrine of how we all must live our lives.

I lived through one period when people were too dumb for too long to see the real danger to humanity of but one small group of nazi genocidal maniacs before they had killed a million civilians. Chamberlain and his "peace in our time" is solid evidence of the danger of that ONE-DIMENSIONAL THINKING. Churchill understood though and early on urged confrontation with the genocidal maniacs before they grew powerful enough to murder millions. Because he was unable to convince his countryman and the US of the real danger until that danger was already upon them, millions of civilians were murdered.

Surely we can learn from history what not to do. For the sake of our grandchildren we must not let itm genocidal maniacs perpetrate what the nazi genocidal maniacs perpetrated.

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Your proposed policies have the effect of creating far more enemies than my policy does. Your policy also costs tons of money, whereas mine does not. Your policy costs American lives, mine does not. Your policy relies upon hypothetical threats as its main point (if we don't kill a bunch of people there, they will kill a bunch of people here), whereas my policy does not rely upon a hypothetical at all (if we don't kill a bunch of people there, less people will be dying - and that's a fact).
All of this statement of yours is your hypothetical unsupported by evidence of any kind. All of this has already been shown false many times. In particular, by virtue of our past refusal to timely confront the genocidal maniacs before their deadliness escalated from hundreds to thousands to millions of dead civilians, we have witnessed and do now currently witness more not less people dying.

I'm not scared of terrorism. I'm not scared of terrorists. I'm scared of those who would seek to kill innocents in the name of combating terrorists. Your proposals are no different than those of the terrorists, ie, you propose killing civilians based upon an arbitrary set of rules, with no justification whatsoever except your own fear.
Your fears or lack thereof are irrelevent. I do not propose killing civilians. I simply recognize our fallibility in sometimes killing civilians in our efforts to murder genocidal maniacs.

The cost of our helping win WWI and WWII was the inadvertent killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians. We did that in our fallible efforts to prevent the murder by the genocidal maniacs of more millions of civilians than had already been murdered by the genocidal maniacs. It is not the kind of damned tradeoff I or any other sane person likes. But it is the damned tradeoff we were presented in the past and are presented in the present. As a consequence of the malicious and pernicious envy that seems to periodically infect large segments of humanity, we face that damned tradeoff now and are likely to face it again sometime in the future.

We know that rooting for people "to be the best they can be" can assuage the fools trap of malicious and pernicious envy. But we also know that transforming humanity to that state where we all, or almost all, do root for each other takes more than a belief in one visit from God.

Reality is a hard taskmaster, but is a hell of alot better to timely face it and deal with it than allow our fantasies to distract and rule our thinking while millions (possibly including us) are murdered.

Cycloptichorn

Comparisons between terrorists and Nazis are a sign of a deluded mind. Cycloptichorn