revel, As I've said many times before, political agreements has very little to do with the realities of the sectarian violence that will continue. The sunnis and shia are fighting a war that has continued on for hundreds of years. The killing of family members by both sides will only exacerbate the violence. That's the reason why the American occupation is seen by most Iraqis as unproductive to their peace; our military kills innocent people.
The following article supports my contention on the on-going sectarian violence.
Inspectors Find More Torture at Iraqi Jails
Top General's Pledge To Protect Prisoners 'Not Being Followed'
By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, April 24, 2006; Page A01
BAGHDAD -- Last Nov. 13, U.S. soldiers found 173 incarcerated men, some of them emaciated and showing signs of torture, in a secret bunker in an Interior Ministry compound in central Baghdad. The soldiers immediately transferred the men to a separate detention facility to protect them from further abuse, the U.S. military reported.
Since then, there have been at least six joint U.S.-Iraqi inspections of detention centers, most of them run by Iraq's Shiite Muslim-dominated Interior Ministry. Two sources involved with the inspections, one Iraqi official and one U.S. official, said abuse of prisoners was found at all the sites visited through February. U.S. military authorities confirmed that signs of severe abuse were observed at two of the detention centers.
A U.S.-Iraqi inspection team photographed men being held at an Interior Ministry detention center in Baghdad Feb. 16. (Photos Provided To The Washington Post)
But U.S. troops have not responded by removing all the detainees, as they did in November. Instead, according to U.S. and Iraqi officials, only a handful of the most severely abused detainees at a single site were removed for medical treatment. Prisoners at two other sites were removed to alleviate overcrowding. U.S. and Iraqi authorities left the rest where they were.
This practice of leaving the detainees in place has raised concerns that detainees now face additional threats. It has also prompted fresh questions from the inspectors about whether the United States has honored a pledge by Marine Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that U.S. troops would attempt to stop inhumane treatment if they saw it.
Pace said at a news conference Nov. 29 with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, "It is absolutely the responsibility of every U.S. service member, if they see inhumane treatment being conducted, to intervene to stop it." Turning to Pace, Rumsfeld responded: "I don't think you mean they have an obligation to physically stop it; it's to report it."
"If they are physically present when inhumane treatment is taking place, sir, they have an obligation to try to stop it," Pace answered.
The Iraqi official familiar with the joint inspections said detainees who are not moved to other facilities are left vulnerable. "They tell us, 'If you leave us here, they will kill us,' " said the Iraqi official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because, he said, he and other Iraqis involved with inspections had received death threats.
The U.S. official involved in the inspections, who would not be identified by name, described in an e-mail the abuse found during some of the visits since the Nov. 13 raid: "Numerous bruises on the arms, legs and feet. A lot of the Iraqis had separated shoulders and problems with their hands and fingers too. You could also see strap marks on some of their backs."
"I was not in charge of the team who went to the sites. If so, I would have taken them out," the U.S. official wrote, referring to the detainees. "We set a precedent and we were given guidance" from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, "but for some reason it is not being followed."
Maj. Gen. John D. Gardner, the commander of U.S. detention operations in Iraq, said in an interview, "I would strongly disagree with the statement that Americans are seeing cases of abuse and not doing anything."
The issue goes to the heart of U.S. relations with the Iraqi government, which is led by Shiite religious parties. The Interior Ministry, whose forces are overwhelmingly Shiite, has been accused by Sunni Arabs and U.S. officials of operating death squads that target Sunni men. Increasingly, Interior Ministry forces are being accused of other crimes as well, including kidnapping for ransom. The Interior Ministry forces have also been accused of deferring to militias belonging to the Shiite religious parties, from whose ranks many of Iraq's police commandos and other ministry forces are drawn.
The Iraqi government says the cases of abuse, illegal detention and killings by the Shiite death squads are few, and it denies involvement in kidnappings. The U.S. military has said it is devoting 2006 to building up and reforming Iraq's police forces.
The central flaw in American foreign policy up to and including 9/11 was a failure to timely and properly assess the degree of threat to the security of Americans presented by the growing terrorist malignancy.
Quote:UN CHARTER Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
President Reagan 1st Term
Quote:1981
October 6: Assassination of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat by Islamic Jihad.
1982
March 29: A bomb on board the Paris-Toulouse train, kills 5 injures 27. Carlos usually assumed to be responsible.
July 20: The Hyde Park and Regents Park bombings in London by the IRA kill eleven members of the Household Cavalry and the Royal Green Jackets.
August 7: Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia set off a bomb in Ankara airport, killing 9 people and wounding 70.
August 9: Rue des Rosiers, Paris gunning and bombing of Goldenberg restaurant : 6 killed 22 wounded - Fatah - the Revolutionary Council
September 14: Assassination of Lebanese Prime Minister Bashir Gemayel and twenty-five others in a car explosion at the Kataeb headquarters.
October 14: Direct Action bombs a Litton Industries factory.
December 6: Ballykelly disco bombing in which Irish National Liberation Army kills seventeen civilians and soldiers in Northern Ireland.
1983
April 18: U.S. Embassy Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63.
July 15: Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia bombed a Turkish airline counter in the Orly Airport, killing eight people and wounding over 50.
September 23: Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, killing all 117 people on board.
October 9: Rangoon bombing by North Koreans targets South Korean President Chun Doo Hwan, killing 21 persons and injuring 48.
October 23: Marine Barracks Bombing in Beirut kills 241 U.S. Marines. 58 French troops from the multinational force are also killed in a separate attack.
December 17: Harrods bomb by the IRA. Six are killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store.
December 31: On the way to New Year's Eve 7 persons are killed and 70 wounded by bombs on the Marseille to Paris TGV and at the St-Charles station in Marseille. The attack is attributed to Carlos on behalf of the O.L.A.
1984
October 12: Brighton hotel bombing by the IRA: 5 are killed in an attempt to kill members of the British cabinet.
October 31: Indian prime minister Indira Gandhi assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards. The killing was in retaliation for the Indian army's entry into the Golden Temple at Amritsar to flush out Sikh extremists who were using the temple as a base for their operations.
Warped and USA-centric reasoning- why am I not surprised.
Most if not all of the instances given are little if anything directly to do with American security.
On March 10, 2003, diplomat John Brown wrote an open letter to then-Secretary of State Colin Powell submitting his resignation in protest against the onrushing invasion of Iraq. He wrote in part: "The president has failed: To explain clearly why our brave men and women in uniform should be ready to sacrifice their lives in a war on Iraq at this time; to lay out the full ramifications of this war, including the extent of innocent civilian casualties; to specify the economic costs of the war for ordinary Americans; to clarify how the war would help rid the world of terror; to take international public opinion against the war into serious consideration." And he added that this administration in its "unjustified use of force" was "giving birth to an anti-American century."
Despite the millions then demonstrating worldwide, Brown was part of a rather lonely crowd in American officialdom. (Only three State Department officials resigned in protest.) But how on target he proved to be. Now, viewing that rubble, all those wasted lives, and the trillion-dollar or more Afghan-Iraq wars, he writes directly to the President, calling on him to take some responsibility for what he has wrought
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=79387
Wow, McTag, thanks for the link to that letter.
Oh boy. Now the north is exploding.
Sumac wrote:
Oh boy. Now the north is exploding.
It was only a matter of time. This administration understands absolutely nothing about the sectarian divisions of the country, while they promote their rhetoric about "successes."
I read an interesting article about the Kurds in National Geographic, so yes, I knew it was coming. The timing of it is interesting.
With so many Shia leaving their neighborhoods, el Sadr's militias have been opening many offices in various parts of the country. I would like to know where all of their money is coming from. Hamas is asking for funds, and there seems to be a lot of it to go around in Iraq.
The central flaw in American foreign policy up to and including 9/11 was a failure to timely and properly assess the degree of threat to the security of Americans presented by the growing terrorist malignancy.
Quote:UN CHARTER Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
President Reagan 2nd Term
Notes inserted by ican
Quote:List of terrorist incidents
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1985
February 23: Paris Marks & Spencer shop, 1 bomb, 1 dead, 18 wounded, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah
February 28: IRA mortar attack kills nine Police officers in Newry.
March 8: Car bomb explodes in Beirut, killing 80, injuring 175.
March 9: Paris, Cinema Rivoli, 18 injured, pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah
June 14: TWA Flight 847 hijacking.
June 22: Air India Flight 182 is blown up by a bomb put onboard the flight from Canada by Sikh nationalists. All 329 people on board are killed. At the time, the most deadly terrorist attack ever. A second Air India flight from Canada was targeted on the same day, but the bomb exploded at the Tokyo airport, in the luggage outside the aircraft, killing two baggage handlers, bringing the total death toll of the act to 331.
October 7 – October 10: Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking by Palestinian Liberation Front, during which passenger Leon Klinghoffer is shot dead.
October 11: Arab anti-discrimination group leader Alex Odeh is killed when a bomb explodes in his Santa Ana, California office.
November 6: Palace of Justice siege: M-19 guerrillas seize the Supreme Court building in Bogotá, Colombia. The next day, an operation to free the hostages leaves some 100 people dead.
November 23: EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.
December 7: Paris, Galeries Lafayette and Printemps shops, two bombs, 51 injured, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah
December 27: Rome and Vienna Airport Attacks.
Investigators associated with the WHO reported that U.S.-funded Contras repeatedly destroyed health-care facilities and murdered health-care workers in Nicaraqua.
1986
February 3: Paris, Claridge passage (Champs Élysées) 7 injured, another bombe failed to explode in the Eiffel tower, pro-Iranian (Fouad Ali Saleh group)
February 4: Paris, Gibert book shop, 7 injured, Fouad Ali Saleh
February 5: Paris, FNAC-sports, 15 injured
March 17: TGV Paris, 9 injured
March 20: Paris, Galerie Point-Show bombed, 2 dead, 21 injured
April 2: TWA Flight 840 bombed on approach to Athens airport; four passengers (all of them American), including an infant, are killed.
April 6: the La Belle discotheque in Berlin, a known hangout for U.S. soldiers, was bombed, killing three and injuring 230 people, for which Libya is held responsible. In retaliation, the US bombs Libya in Operation El Dorado Canyon and tries to kill Colonel Muammar al-Qaddafi.
May 3: A bomb explodes aboard a Sri Lankan airliner in Colombo, Sri Lanka, killing 21 and injuring 40
June 14: ANC bombs Why Not Restaurant and Magoo's Bar in Durban, South Africa, 3 people killed, 73 wounded.
July 15: ETA Basque militant group bombs a Guardia Civil police truck, kills 12.
September 5: Pan Am Flight 73, an American civilian airliner, is hijacked; 22 people die when plane is stormed in Karachi, Pakistan.
September 8: Paris town hall's post office bombed, 1 dead, 16 injured
September 12: Paris La Défense, Casino Supermarket's restaurant bombed, 43 injured
September 14: Paris, pub Renault bombed, 2 dead, 1 injured
September 15: Paris, police headquarters bombed, 1 dead, 45 injured
September 17: Paris, Rue de Rennes a bomb explodes in the street, 7 dead, 54 injured.
December 25: Iraqi Airways Flight 163 is hijacked.
December 31: New Year's Eve fire at the Dupont Plaza Hotel in San Juan, Puerto Rico, claimed 97 lives, mainly in the casino area. Fire set by 3 hotel workers, trying to make tourists stay away from Puerto Rico as a protest to their working wages.
1987
April 21: Car bomb at bus terminal in Colombo, Sri Lanka kills 110
May 8: An assault by an IRA team on Loughgall RUC base is stopped by SAS commandoes, who kill eight attackers. See Loughgall Ambush.
June 19: ETA Basque militant group bomb in Hipercor Mall's parking in Barcelona, kills 21, 45 injured.
November 8: Remembrance Day Bombing parade in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh by the IRA. 11 are killed and 63 injured.
November 29: KAL Flight 858 bombed by North Korea.
December 11: ETA Basque militant group bomb a Guardia Civil police bedrooms in Zaragoza, kills 11, 40 injured.
1988
August: Osama bin Laden, in Afghanistan, assumes control of al-Qaeda.
December 21: Pan Am Flight 103 bombing over Lockerbie. At the time, it was the worst act of terrorism perpetrated against the United States, and among the worst acts of terrorism in European history.
Ex-Sen. Bob Graham: Iran Strikes Could Spark World War III
Kenneth R. Timmerman, NewsMax.com
Wednesday, April 26, 2006
WASHINGTON -- After Sept. 11, 2001, while the Bush administration, members of Congress from both sides of the aisle and others were warning of the grave threat posed by Saddam Hussein and Iraq, one senator was warning that the real threat to America lay with Iran.
The Iranian-supported terrorist group Hezbollah "is a much more immediate threat to the security of the United States of America, in my judgment, than Saddam Hussein," Sen. Bob Graham declared in July 2002.
And within weeks of the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Graham said: "Iran has a larger warehouse of chemical and biological weapons and is closer to gaining nuclear weapons capability than Iraq."
Today Graham, a Florida Democrat, is retired from the Senate but he is still speaking out on foreign policy and intelligence matters. He is an Institute of Politics fellow at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government.
In an exclusive interview with NewsMax, Graham warns that the growing crisis in Iran is reaching a boiling point. He says military action by the United States against Iran's nuclear facilities could spark World War III.
ican711nm wrote:The central flaw in American foreign policy up to and including 9/11 was a failure to timely and properly assess the degree of threat to the security of Americans presented by the growing terrorist malignancy.
President Reagan 2nd Term
Notes inserted by ican
Quote:List of terrorist incidents
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1985
February 23: Paris Marks & Spencer shop, 1 bomb, 1 dead, 18 wounded, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah
February 28: IRA mortar attack kills nine Police officers in Newry.
March 8: Car bomb explodes in Beirut, killing 80, injuring 175.
March 9: Paris, Cinema Rivoli, 18 injured, pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah
June 14: TWA Flight 847 hijacking.
June 22: Air India Flight 182 is blown up by a bomb put onboard the flight from Canada by Sikh nationalists. All 329 people on board are killed. At the time, the most deadly terrorist attack ever. A second Air India flight from Canada was targeted on the same day, but the bomb exploded at the Tokyo airport, in the luggage outside the aircraft, killing two baggage handlers, bringing the total death toll of the act to 331.
October 7 – October 10: Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking by Palestinian Liberation Front, during which passenger Leon Klinghoffer is shot dead.
October 11: Arab anti-discrimination group leader Alex Odeh is killed when a bomb explodes in his Santa Ana, California office.
November 6: Palace of Justice siege: M-19 guerrillas seize the Supreme Court building in Bogotá, Colombia. The next day, an operation to free the hostages leaves some 100 people dead.
November 23: EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.
December 7: Paris, Galeries Lafayette and Printemps shops, two bombs, 51 injured, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah
December 27: Rome and Vienna Airport Attacks.
Investigators associated with the WHO reported that U.S.-funded Contras repeatedly destroyed health-care facilities and murdered health-care workers in Nicaraqua.
1986
February 3: Paris, Claridge passage (Champs Élysées) 7 injured, another bombe failed to explode in the Eiffel tower, pro-Iranian (Fouad Ali Saleh group)
February 4: Paris, Gibert book shop, 7 injured, Fouad Ali Saleh
February 5: Paris, FNAC-sports, 15 injured
March 17: TGV Paris, 9 injured
March 20: Paris, Galerie Point-Show bombed, 2 dead, 21 injured
April 2: TWA Flight 840 bombed on approach to Athens airport; four passengers (all of them American), including an infant, are killed.
April 6: the La Belle discotheque in Berlin, a known hangout for U.S. soldiers, was bombed, killing three and injuring 230 people, for which Libya is held responsible. In retaliation, the US bombs Libya in Operation El Dorado Canyon and tries to kill Colonel Muammar al-Qaddafi.
May 3: A bomb explodes aboard a Sri Lankan airliner in Colombo, Sri Lanka, killing 21 and injuring 40
June 14: ANC bombs Why Not Restaurant and Magoo's Bar in Durban, South Africa, 3 people killed, 73 wounded.
July 15: ETA Basque militant group bombs a Guardia Civil police truck, kills 12.
September 5: Pan Am Flight 73, an American civilian airliner, is hijacked; 22 people die when plane is stormed in Karachi, Pakistan.
September 8: Paris town hall's post office bombed, 1 dead, 16 injured
September 12: Paris La Défense, Casino Supermarket's restaurant bombed, 43 injured
September 14: Paris, pub Renault bombed, 2 dead, 1 injured
September 15: Paris, police headquarters bombed, 1 dead, 45 injured
September 17: Paris, Rue de Rennes a bomb explodes in the street, 7 dead, 54 injured.
December 25: Iraqi Airways Flight 163 is hijacked.
December 31: New Year's Eve fire at the Dupont Plaza Hotel in San Juan, Puerto Rico, claimed 97 lives, mainly in the casino area. Fire set by 3 hotel workers, trying to make tourists stay away from Puerto Rico as a protest to their working wages.
1987
April 21: Car bomb at bus terminal in Colombo, Sri Lanka kills 110
May 8: An assault by an IRA team on Loughgall RUC base is stopped by SAS commandoes, who kill eight attackers. See Loughgall Ambush.
June 19: ETA Basque militant group bomb in Hipercor Mall's parking in Barcelona, kills 21, 45 injured.
November 8: Remembrance Day Bombing parade in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh by the IRA. 11 are killed and 63 injured.
November 29: KAL Flight 858 bombed by North Korea.
December 11: ETA Basque militant group bomb a Guardia Civil police bedrooms in Zaragoza, kills 11, 40 injured.
1988
August: Osama bin Laden, in Afghanistan, assumes control of al-Qaeda.
December 21: Pan Am Flight 103 bombing over Lockerbie. At the time, it was the worst act of terrorism perpetrated against the United States, and among the worst acts of terrorism in European history.
I replied to this already, saying most of these events had little directly to do with American security, but my post seems to have been lost.
Sauerkraut and sausage washed down with a cold German beer to the sounds of a tuba honking out Bavarian folk tunes. It's no longer just a distant dream to the residents of the northern Iraqi city of Arbil.
Iraq Gets Its First German Restaurant
The central flaw in American foreign policy up to and including 9/11 was a failure to timely and properly assess the degree of threat to the security of Americans presented by the growing terrorist malignancy.
Quote:UN CHARTER Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
President Bush (41st president of the USA)
Notes inserted by ican
Quote:List of terrorist incidents
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1989
July 9: Two bombs explode in Mecca, killing one pilgrim and wounding 16 others.
September 22: Deal barracks bombing: Eleven Royal Marines bandsmen are killed and 22 injured when base in Deal, Kent, is bombed by the IRA.
September 19: Suitcase-bomb destroys UTA Flight UT-772 en route to Paris, killing all 171 passengers and crew. Lybian intelligence involved.
Quote:November 24: Assam, bin Laden's rival for leadership of al-Qaeda, and both Assam's sons were killed by a car bomb. Bin Laden wanted to prepare the mujahideen to fight anywhere in the world. Assam by contrast favored continuing to fight in Afghanistan until it had a true Islamist government.
November 27: Avianca Flight 203 bombed over Colombia.
December 6: Truck bomb kills 52 and injures 1,000 outside a security building in Bogotá, Colombia; blast is blamed on drug lord Pablo Escobar.
1990
October 24: A series of car bombings directed by the IRA in Northern Ireland leave 7 people dead and 37 wounded.
1991
May 21: Former Indian prime minister Rajiv Gandhi assassinated in a bomb blast believed to be the work of Sri Lankan Tamil terrorists belonging to the LTTE.
May 29: Basque ETA group bombs the Guardia Civil police barracks in Vic (Barcelona), killing 10.
Osama bin Laden moved to Sudan.
1992
Eight Protestant builders killed by an IRA bomb on their way to work at an Army base near Omagh.
March 17: Israeli Embassy bombing by "Islamic Jihad" in Buenos Aires, Argentina; 29 killed, 242 injured.
Quote:The [1992] Fatwahs Against American Troops in Saudi Arabia and Yemen
At various times from in or about 1992 until the date of the filing of this Indictment, Usama Bin Laden, working together with members of the fatwah committee of al Qaeda, disseminated fatwahs to other members and associates of al Qaeda that the United States forces stationed on the Saudi Arabian peninsula, including both Saudi Arabia and Yemen, should be attacked.
The [1992] Fatwah Against American Troops in Somalia
At various times from in or about 1992 until in or about 1993, Usama Bin Laden, working together with members of the fatwah committee of al Qaeda, disseminated fatwahs to other members and associates of al Qaeda that the United States forces stationed in the Horn of Africa, including Somalia, should be attacked.
The [1992] Fatwah Regarding Deaths of Nonbelievers
On various occasions, an unindicted co-conspirator advised other members of al Qaeda that it was Islamically proper to engage in violent actions against "infidels" (nonbelievers), even if others might be killed by such actions, because if the others were "innocent," they would go to paradise, and if they were not "innocent," they deserved to die.
ican said:
Quote:The central flaw in American foreign policy up to and including 9/11 was a failure to timely and properly assess the degree of threat to the security of Americans presented by the growing terrorist malignancy.
And if it had been properly assessed in a timely fashion, then what?
And didn't the Clinton transition team try, and try, to underscore the danger of bin Laden to the incoming Bush administration?
Iraq had nothing to do with Bin Laden or 9/11 so Ican's entire post as usual is irrelevant.
Iraq had nothing to do with Bin Laden so Ican's entire post as usual is irrelevant. Ahead of time, Ican, already been there and done that about the not significant amount of AQ presence in Iraq at the time of the invasion debate, don't want to do it again. Your assessments don't match with most experts including the 9/11 report and will leave it at that.
