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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2007 03:45 pm
Surge of troops, but no surge of armored vehicles
Lack of specialized Humvees is worse than initially thought

By DAVID WOOD, Baltimore Sun
January 22, 2007

WASHINGTON - After nearly four years of war in Iraq, the Pentagon's effort to protect its troops against roadside bombs is in disarray, with soldiers and Marines having to swap access to scarce armored vehicles and the military unsure whether it has the money or industrial capacity to produce the safe vehicles it says the troops need.
On Jan. 10, The Baltimore Sun reported that most of the 21,500 troops President Bush has ordered to Iraq as reinforcements will not have access to specialized blast-resistant armored vehicles because they are in such short supply.

But the problem runs deeper than that. In congressional testimony and interviews last week, senior Army and Marine Corps officers acknowledged that they are struggling just to meet the needs of service members already in Iraq. Even if the Pentagon can find millions of dollars not currently budgeted, and even if it can find factories to produce the armored vehicles, most U.S. troops in Iraq will not have access to the best equipment available, as President Bush has often promised.

The Army acknowledged last week, for example, that it is still 22 percent short of the armored Humvees it needs in Iraq despite heated criticism in 2004 and 2005 over the lack of armored vehicles. Army officials said it will be another eight months before that gap can be filled.
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/iraq_conflict/article/0,1406,KNS_9217_5296145,00.html
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2007 03:47 pm
Perhaps we can start by admitting that we should actually focus a little bit on defense from time to time

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2007 03:50 pm
blueflame, It's been evident long before now that the troops are underequipped and undertrained for this war in Iraq. It hasn't changed much since Rummy told our troops, (something like) "you fight this war with what you have, not what you wish you had."

They'd rather make Halliburton richer at the expense of protecting our soldiers. The biggest insult to our soldiers is the cut in veteran's benefits.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2007 04:04 pm
xingu wrote:

...
Like Zinni said Saddam was not a threat to anyone and there was no need for invasion. Containment worked.

Containment did not work in Afghanistan despite our watching and our occassional potshots. What was different about Iraq so as to make containent and our occassional potshots work there?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2007 04:10 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
Surge of troops, but no surge of armored vehicles
Lack of specialized Humvees is worse than initially thought ...

Put the blame in the past where it belonged -- on the Democrats in Congress opposing adequate increases in military funding.
Put the blame now where it belongs -- on the Democratic Congress for threatening to cut funding for iraq.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2007 04:24 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Perhaps we can start by admitting that we should actually focus a little bit on defense from time to time
Cycloptichorn

OK! Let's focus on defense. Some say kill the weeds before they blossom and spread their seeds. Others say kill the seeds wherever they spread. Still others say negotiate with the weeds to reduce their seeds. Still others say stop the wind from spreading the seeds.

What do you say?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2007 04:36 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Perhaps we can start by admitting that we should actually focus a little bit on defense from time to time
Cycloptichorn

OK! Let's focus on defense. Some say kill the weeds before they blossom and spread their seeds. Others say kill the seeds wherever they spread. Still others say negotiate with the weeds to reduce their seeds. Still others say stop the wind from spreading the seeds.

What do you say?


I say all of them! A multi-pronged approach is the only way to ensure that you aren't missing something, and we certainly have the capability to do far more than we currently are doing.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Jan, 2007 05:27 pm
ican, I put the blame where it belongs on the Bushie/PNACers who lied us into war. Bushie should have worked with Hans Blix.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 06:43 am
Comments by Juan Cole at http://juancole.com/

Quote:
Arguing With Bush

BUSH: Yet one question has surely been settled - that to win the war on terror we must take the fight to the enemy.

Actually, it is unclear what "taking the fight to the enemy" means in Bush's ill-conceived "war on terror." He is probably still trying to sneak Iraq into the struggle against al-Qaeda through the back door. If so, that dog won't hunt. By launching an unprovoked and illegal war of aggression on a major Arab Muslim country, Bush hasn't "carried the fight to the enemy" but has rather dishonored the 9/11 dead by using their killings as a pretext to carry out his own preconceived and Ahab-like plans to "take out" Saddam Hussein. Nothing could be better calculated to increase the threat of terrorism against the United States than an attempt militarily to occupy Iraq, with all the repression and torture it has entailed. And, if Bush was so good at taking the fight to the enemy, why is Ayman al-Zawahiri still free to taunt him by videotape. Al-Zawahiri was a major force behind the September 11 attacks. Why is he at large?

Bush then claims some successes in breaking up terror plots. But these plots were broken up by old-fashioned detective and intelligence work, with some substantial dependence on our allies. It has even been suggested that Bush broke the news about the alleged airplane liquids plot in the UK before British intelligence was ready for it to become public. In any case, it is hard to see what these counter-terrorism successes have to do with his expansion of the US military or his quixotic war in Iraq.

BUSH: Every success against the terrorists is a reminder of the shoreless ambitions of this enemy. The evil that inspired and rejoiced in Nine-Eleven is still at work in the world. And so long as that is the case, America is still a Nation at war.

Do we have to be at war? Couldn't we just be vigilant and do good counter-terrorism. Isn't "war" a distraction from the latter?

BUSH: Our enemies are quite explicit about their intentions. They want to overthrow moderate governments, and establish safe havens from which to plan and carry out new attacks on our country. By killing and terrorizing Americans, they want to force our country to retreat from the world and abandon the cause of liberty.

Yes but it isn't so important what your enemy's intentions are. You always have enemies with bad intentions. What is important is your enemy's capabilities. Al-Qaeda was never very large or powerful, and it is increasingly clear that the September 11 attacks were a fluke of good fortune on their part. The fact is that al-Qaeda cannot overthrow the Egyptian government, or any other government, and cannot actually harm the United States or its way of life in any prolonged or serious way. This small band of 5,000 to 12,000 men in Afghanistan, now largely killed or scattered, cannot possibly be a pretext for keeping all Americans on their toes all the time, and keeping them willing to cede their constitutional liberties to Bush.

BUSH: it has also become clear that we face an escalating danger from Shia extremists who are just as hostile to America, and are also determined to dominate the Middle East. Many are known to take direction from the regime in Iran, which is funding and arming terrorists like Hezbollah - a group second only to al Qaeda in the American lives it has taken.

The major Shiite religious parties with long histories of anti-American rhetoric and activity are the Islamic Call or Da'wa Party and the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Both of these Shiite religious parties are now allies of Bush. The Iraqi Da'wa actually helped to form the Lebanese Hizbullah in the early 1980s. A major figure in its Damascus bureau at that time was Nuri al-Maliki, now the Prime Minister of Iraq and a Bush ally. Al-Maliki supported Hizbullah versus Israel in the war last summer. The Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq is headed by Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, who is close to the Iranian regime but whom Bush hosted in the White House on Dec. 4.

So if these Iraqi Shiite parties and militias can be brought in from the cold, why is it that Bush demonizes and essentializes other Shiite groups that are equally capable of changing their policies given the right incentives?

As for the Lebanese Hizbullah, it was formed in 1984 and so was not responsible for the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut. That was carried about by the Islamic Amal faction of Abbas al-Musawi. Elements of the latter may have later joined Hizbullah.

Hizbullah's energies have not been put into killing Americans during the past two decades, but rather into getting the Israelis back out of their country. In fact, it isn't clear that the Lebanese Hizbullah has done anything to the US for 20 years.

It is arguably the Israeli invasion and military occupation of south Lebanon that created Hizbullah in the first place. Prior to that, the southern Lebanese Shiites weren't very political and often were pro-Israel.

BUSH: What every terrorist fears most is human freedom - societies where men and women make their own choices, answer to their own conscience, and live by their hopes instead of their resentments. Free people are not drawn to violent and malignant ideologies - and most will choose a better way when they are given a chance. So we advance our own security interests by helping moderates, reformers, and brave voices for democracy. The great question of our day is whether America will help men and women in the Middle East to build free societies and share in the rights of all humanity. And I say, for the sake of our own security . . . we must.

First of all, "terrorists" are just political activists who commit violence against noncombatants. Lots of political movements have used this technique including some whose goal was liberal democracy. So it simply is not true that all those who deploy terror have the same goals.

Second, people in capitalist democracies resort to terrorism all the time. Indeed, the most horrific regime of modern times, that of the Nazis, came out of the liberal parliamentary Weimar Republic and was elected to office. The Baader-Meinhoff gang in liberal West Germany, the Japanese Red Army, the McVeigh-Nichols "Christian Identity" terrorism in Oklahoma-- all of these examples prove Bush's premise wrong.

And, even if it were the case that capitalist democracies don't produce terrorism (which it is not), Bush cannot spread democracy in the Middle East by his so-far favored military means. Ask any Middle Easterner if he or she would like to have a situation such as prevails in Iraq. They will say, if that is democracy I want none of it. Bush has actively pushed the Middle Eastern publics away from democracy for an extra generation or two.

BUSH: In the last two years, we have seen the desire for liberty in the broader Middle East - and we have been sobered by the enemy's fierce reaction. In 2005, the world watched as the citizens of Lebanon raised the banner of the Cedar Revolution ... drove out the Syrian occupiers ... and chose new leaders in free elections.

Yes, and that government was joined by the Lebanese Hizbullah. It was a national unity government. The US ambassador in Lebanon encouraged this development. What destabilized that government was the brutal Israeli war on Lebanon of last summer. Bush collaborated in that war and even worked against the early cease-fire called for by the Seniora government. Bush can't pretend to be a friend of the Lebanese government and yet approve publicly of a sanguinary war on it by Olmert. Bush puts all the blame for instability in Lebanon on Syria, which is implausible.

Bush then goes on to complain that "the enemy" has adjusted its tactics and thrown up new challenges in Iraq and Afghanistan. But in reality, Bush just imposed a 'winner-take-all, devil-take-the-hindmost' situation in Afghanistan and Iraq, generating profound ethnic and religious resentments that have exploded into violence.

BUSH: This is not the fight we entered in Iraq, but it is the fight we are in. Every one of us wishes that this war were over and won. Yet it would not be like us to leave our promises unkept, our friends abandoned, and our own security at risk. Ladies and gentlemen: On this day, at this hour, it is still within our power to shape the outcome of this battle. So let us find our resolve, and turn events toward victory.

Puh-lease. Spare us the Rumsfeldisms. Either we are in charge or we are helpless leaves being blown by the wind of the enemy. If we aren't in charge, then we have already lost.

As for the idea that we still have the power to shape the outcome, that is contradicted by his previous admission that we have been maneuvered into a different kind of war that we hadn't planned on. We couldn't shape the outcome, which is why the war is going badly. We cannot now shape the outcome by main force. We have to negotiate, with the insurgents and with Iran and Syria, if we are to avoid a catastrophe.

BUSH: We are carrying out a new strategy in Iraq - a plan that demands more from Iraq's elected government, and gives our forces in Iraq the reinforcements they need to complete their mission.

You don't have a new strategy. You may have some new tactics, but that remains to be seen. Iraq's government in any case has already rejected the idea that it must meet artificial US 'benchmarks.' And, the "government" is anyway weak and divided. Most of the major political figures are linked to guerrilla or militia groups. It cannot stop the fighting because its members provoke the fighting.

BUSH: And in Anbar province - where al Qaeda terrorists have gathered and local forces have begun showing a willingness to fight them - we are sending an additional 4,000 United States Marines, with orders to find the terrorists and clear them out. We did not drive al Qaeda out of their safe haven in Afghanistan only to let them set up a new safe haven in a free Iraq.

I'm confused. I thought Bush and Cheney maintained that Iraq under Saddam was already a safe haven for al-Qaeda. Now he is saying that he won't let Iraq become such a safe haven, implying that it wasn't before.

Bush's cynical use of "al-Qaeda" to confuse the American public hides the simple fact that the vast majority of violence in Iraq is perpetrated by Sunni Arab Iraqis who want an end to what they see as a foreign military occupation of their country. Most are either Baathists or Salafi Sunni revivalists. There isn't really any al-Qaeda in Iraq in the sense of a group directly tied to Bin Laden. How would they even find him to give him fealty?

BUSH: If American forces step back before Baghdad is secure, the Iraqi government would be overrun by extremists on all sides. We could expect an epic battle between Shia extremists backed by Iran, and Sunni extremists aided by al Qaeda and supporters of the old regime. A contagion of violence could spill out across the country - and in time the entire region could be drawn into the conflict. For America, this is a nightmare scenario. For the enemy, this is the objective.

Yes, Mr. Bush, and you are the one who got us into this mess. Nor can you get us back out by 'staying the course' or with a mere 21,500 further troops. Any other ideas how to extract us from the dilemma?

BUSH: And out of chaos in Iraq, would emerge an emboldened enemy with new safe havens... new recruits ... new resources ... and an even greater determination to harm America.

When Britain got out of Kenya, no Kenyan terrorists took advantage of the withdrawal to plot bombings of London. Kenyans were pretty happy about the British getting out. When the US got out of Vietnam, no Vietnamese terrorists followed us to the US mainland to inflict terrorism on us. Bush's charges are just propaganda.

BUSH: The war on terror we fight today is a generational struggle that will continue long after you and I have turned our duties over to others. That is why it is important to work together so our Nation can see this great effort through.

The struggle against al-Qaeda proper is over with. No big new arrests have been made in its ranks for years. There are other counter-terrorism targets, which should be monitored and broken up on a continual basis. That isn't a war and doesn't require the Pentagon. The 'war on terror' as a trope won't succeed Bush by even a day from his last moments in office.

BUSH: Americans can have confidence in the outcome of this struggle - because we are not in this struggle alone. We have a diplomatic strategy that is rallying the world to join in the fight against extremism.

Of all the lies and misrepresentations, this is the most egregious. Bush's policies have left the US isolated and deeply unpopular throughout the world. Some 75 percent of Indonesians had a positive view of the US before W. It has more latedly been around 30% and at one point fell to 15%.

BUSH: The United Nations has imposed sanctions on Iran, and made it clear that the world will not allow the regime in Tehran to acquire nuclear weapons.

The International Atomic Energy Agcency hasn't certified that Iran even has a nucear wapons researh program. Iran was, at least a signatory of the nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty. Bush may be pushing it out of the treaty.

Bush has exacerbated conflicts throughout the Middle East and is now holding his own failures over our heads to blackmail us into throwing good money after bad.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 10:06 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Perhaps we can start by admitting that we should actually focus a little bit on defense from time to time
Cycloptichorn

OK! Let's focus on defense. Some say kill the weeds before they blossom and spread their seeds. Others say kill the seeds wherever they spread. Still others say negotiate with the weeds to reduce their seeds. Still others say stop the wind from spreading the seeds.

What do you say?


I say all of them! A multi-pronged approach is the only way to ensure that you aren't missing something, and we certainly have the capability to do far more than we currently are doing.

Cycloptichorn

Great! We are now in 100% agreement about this.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 10:51 am
blueflame1 wrote:
ican, I put the blame where it belongs on the Bushie/PNACers who lied us into war. Bushie should have worked with Hans Blix.

Bush did not lie us into war. Bush was wrong about the WMD threat in Iraq. Bush was right about the growing terrorist threat in Iraq. Bush did mismanage the development of a competent self-governing Iraq.

Hans Blix was focused only on whether or not Saddam possessed ready-to-use WMD. Hans was completely oblivious of the subsequently confirmed, rapidly growing al-Qaeda sanctuary in Iraq.

Congress in October 2002 gave 23 reasons for authorizing Bush to decide if and when to invade Iraq. The 13 reasons that were subsequently verified included 2 about the growing terrorist threat in Iraq. The 10 subsequently proven false were all about WMD.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 12:36 pm
xingu wrote:
Comments by Juan Cole at http://juancole.com/

Quote:
Arguing With Bush

BUSH: Yet one question has surely been settled - that to win the war on terror we must take the fight to the enemy.

Actually, it is unclear what "taking the fight to the enemy" means in Bush's ill-conceived "war on terror."It is clear to any rational human what "taking the fight to the enemy" means in the context of fighting terrorism. He is probably still trying to sneak Iraq into the struggle against al-Qaeda through the back door.Malarkey! If so, that dog won't hunt. By launching an unprovoked and illegal war of aggression Malarkey. There was/is nothing illegal about the war! The war was provoked by the imigration into Iraq by al-Qaeda fleeing from Afghanistan after the USA invaded Afghanistan.on a major Arab Muslim country, Bush hasn't "carried the fight to the enemy" but has rather dishonored the 9/11 dead by using their killings as a pretext to carry out his own preconceived and Ahab-like plans to "take out" Saddam Hussein. Nothing could be better calculated to increase the threat of terrorism against the United States than an attempt militarily to occupy Iraq, with all the repression and torture it has entailed. And, if Bush was so good at taking the fight to the enemy, why is Ayman al-Zawahiri still free to taunt him by videotape. Al-Zawahiri was a major force behind the September 11 attacks. Why is he at large?This is the usual Soros malarkey passed on by Juan Cole and many like him. It has been repeatedly acknowledged that Bush is not so good at taking the fight to the enemy

...

Yes but it isn't so important what your enemy's intentions are. You always have enemies with bad intentions. What is important is your enemy's capabilities. Al-Qaeda was never very large or powerful, and it is increasingly clear that the September 11 attacks were a fluke of good fortune on their part. Malarkey! Like hell it was a fluke! It was but one of a sequence of such non-flukes going back to the creation of al-Qaeda in the 1980s and going forward from 9/11 to terrorist mass murders in Europe and elsewhere to the present. The fact is that al-Qaeda cannot overthrow the Egyptian government, or any other government, and cannot actually harm the United States or its way of life in any prolonged or serious way. This small band of 5,000 to 12,000 men in Afghanistan, now largely killed or scattered, cannot possibly be a pretext for keeping all Americans on their toes all the time, and keeping them willing to cede their constitutional liberties to Bush.Malarkey! 19 suicidally mass murdered 3,000 on 9/11. 5,000 could easily suicidally mass murder over a quarter million. What fool-Cole cannot seem to comprehend is that a relatively few terrorists can replace governments with themselves.

...

First of all, "terrorists" are just political activists who commit violence against noncombatants. Lots of political movements have used this technique including some whose goal was liberal democracy. So it simply is not true that all those who deploy terror have the same goals.Just political activists Rolling Eyes Suicidal mass murderers are all the same in one fundamental and controlling respect. They suicidally mass murder.

Second, people in capitalist democracies resort to terrorism all the time. Indeed, the most horrific regime of modern times, that of the Nazis, came out of the liberal parliamentary Weimar Republic and was elected to office.Malarkey! The nazis did not "come out of the liberal German parliament. The nazis--"today Europe, tomorrow the world"--began as a small terrorist group that infiltrated the liberal German parliament with the intention, and eventually the ability, to overthrow the liberal German governent. The Baader-Meinhoff gang in liberal West Germany, the Japanese Red Army, the McVeigh-Nichols "Christian Identity" terrorism in Oklahoma-- all of these examples prove Bush's premise wrong.Malarkey! None of these prove Bush's premis wrong. None of these except the nazis were self-declared conquerors of the world.

...

I'm confused. I thought Bush and Cheney maintained that Iraq under Saddam was already a safe haven for al-Qaeda. Now he is saying that he won't let Iraq become such a safe haven, implying that it wasn't before. Gad, what mindless-Cole-logic. Bush stopped Iraq from becoming a safe haven after the USA invaded Iraq and the developing safe havens in Iraq. Clearly, "now he is saying that he won't let Iraq become such a safe haven" in future.

...

Bush has exacerbated conflicts throughout the Middle East and is now holding his own failures over our heads to blackmail us into throwing good money after bad.

Conflicts in the middle east were exacerbated by al-Qaeda in the Middle East long before George Bush became President in the USA. The claim that Bush exacerbated conflicts throughout the Middle East is the standard malarkey promoted by George Soros and those George Soros owns.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 01:11 pm
PLEASE REMEMBER
ican711nm wrote:
GYORGY SCHWARTZ alias GEORGE SOROS alias GEORGE WILL SOAR wrote:
[In his 1995 book page145 Soros on Soros]
I do not accept the rules imposed by others. If I did, I would not be alive today. I am a law-abiding citizen, but I recognize that there are regimes that need to be opposed rather than accepted. And in periods of regime change, the normal rules don't apply. One needs to adjust one's behavior to the changing circumstances.

[In his 2000 book page 337 Open Society]
Usually it takes a crisis to prompt a meaningful change in direction.

[Washington Post page A03 of November 11, 2003]
Ousting Bush from the White House is the central focus of my life. It's a matter of life and death.

[2003 edition of his book page 15 The Alchemy of Finance]
My greatest fear is that the Bush Doctrine will succeed--that Bush will crush the terrorists, tame the rogue states of the axis of evil, and usher in a golden age of American supremacy. American supremacy is flawed and bound to fail in the long run.

What I am afraid of is that the pursuit of American supremacy may be successful for a while because the United States in fact employs a dominant position in the world today.

[On June 10, 2004 to the Associated Press]
These are not normal times.

[In his 2004 book page 159 The Bubble of American Supremacy ]
the principles of the Declaration of Independence are not self-evident truths but arrangements necessitated by our inherently imperfect understanding.


[In April 2005 the Soros funded Campus Progress web site posted this headline]
"An Invitation to Help Design the Constitution in 2020" (invitation to A Yale law School Conference on "The Constitution of 2020: a progressive vision of what the Constitution ought to be.")

On December 9, 2004, Eli Pariser, who headed Soros's group Moveon PAC, boasted to his members, "Now the Democratic Party is our party. We bought it, we own it."

Soros and his gangster associates are working to transform America into an atheist collective.

If the Soros owned news media succeeds in persuading more than 50% of Americans to oppose Bush's plan, it will boost our enemy's effort and it will defeat America in Iraq regardless of whether Bush's modified strategy can work or not.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 02:14 pm
80% in Iraq Distrust Occupation Authority
Results of Poll, Taken Before Prison Scandal Came to Light, Worry U.S. Officials
By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 13, 2004; Page A10
Four out of five Iraqis report holding a negative view of the U.S. occupation authority and of coalition forces, according to a new poll conducted for the occupation authority.
In the poll, 80 percent of the Iraqis questioned reported a lack of confidence in the Coalition Provisional Authority, and 82 percent said they disapprove of the U.S. and allied militaries in Iraq.

Noteworthy Numbers:
NUMBER OF AMERICANS WHO THINK THE WAR IN IRAQ IS GOING BADLY:
75 percent
DOES BUSH SHARE YOUR PRIORITIES?
69 percent say, "NO"
SHOULD U.S. SEND 20,000 MORE TROOPS TO IRAQ?
66 percent say, "NO"
NUMBER OF AMERICANS WHO APPROVE OF BUSH'S JOB ON HANDLING THE ECONOMY:
37 percent
NUMBER OF AMERICANS WHO APPROVE OF BUSH'S JOB AS PRESIDENT:
28 percent (A new, all-time low for Bush and only Richard Nixon faired worse at 23 percent, just before he resigned.)
NUMBER OF AMERICANS WHO APPROVAL OF BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR:
28 percent
NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO APPROVAL OF BUSH'S HANDLING OF IRAQ:
24 percent
NUMBER OF AMERICANS WHO BELIEVE BUSH HAS A CLEAR PLAN FOR IRAQ:
24 percent
NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE U.S. IS SAFER FROM TERRORISM UNDER BUSH
17 percent

Finally,NUMBER OF AMERICANS WHO BELIEVE THE U.S. WILL SUCCEED IN IRAQ:
10 percent

When Bush fails to listen to the Iraqis or the American People, he is out of touch with reality. His arrogance is only exceeded by his stupidty.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 02:34 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
80% in Iraq Distrust Occupation Authority
Results of Poll, Taken Before Prison Scandal Came to Light, Worry U.S. Officials
By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 13, 2004; Page A10
...
When Bush fails to listen to the Iraqis or the American People, he is out of touch with reality. His arrogance is only exceeded by his stupidty.

People who believe these polls are out of touch with reality. People who interpret these polls are out of touch with reality. People who act in accordance with these polls are out of touch with reality.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 03:17 pm
ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
80% in Iraq Distrust Occupation Authority
Results of Poll, Taken Before Prison Scandal Came to Light, Worry U.S. Officials
By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 13, 2004; Page A10
...
When Bush fails to listen to the Iraqis or the American People, he is out of touch with reality. His arrogance is only exceeded by his stupidty.

People who believe these polls are out of touch with reality. People who interpret these polls are out of touch with reality. People who act in accordance with these polls are out of touch with reality.


Ican is out of touch with reality, but is in touch with his big stupid arse where he keeps his head.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 04:09 pm
Sure, we shouldn't actually believe anything that doesn't conform to our views of 'reality,' right Ican?

The poll doesn't say what you want, so you don't believe it?

Right

I can see why you bought the WMD angle hook, line and sinker: it told you exactly what you were looking to hear.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 04:23 pm
ican refuses to believe the US polls on Bush and the Iraq war, because he's lost all sense of reality. He can attack the polls as unreliable, but then, he's also claiming that the major news media and Zogby are all fakes! He needs to admit himself to a mental institution, because Bush's performance ratings will be hitting new lows as more of our troops gets killed and maimed with his "surge."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 07:26 pm
You guys are again allowing your own prejudices to distort your perceptions of me and my claims.

If I were polled:
(1) Do I approve of George Bush's performance? I would answer NO;
(2) Do I approve of George Bush's management of the war in Afghanistan? I would answer NO;
(3) Do I approve of George Bush's management of the war in Iraq? I would answer NO;
(4) Do I approve of what George Bush advocates for the USA's domestic economy? I would answer NO;
(5) Do I approve of the Democrats' support for the war in Afghanistan? I would answer NO;
(6) Do I approve of the Democrats' support for the war in Iraq? I would answer NO;
(7) Do I approve of what the Democrats' support for the war in Afghanistan? I would answer NO;
(8) Do I approve of what the Democrats advocate for the USA's domestic economy? I would answer NO.

I do not trust the answers to absolute questions like those above. I trust the answers to comparative questions like these:

>Which do you prefer: Democrats or Republicans? I would answer, Republicans.

>Which do you favor more, idea#1 or idea#2?

>Do I prefer George Bush as president over both John Kerry and Al Gore? I would answer YES.

>Do the Iraqis approve of the USA's performance in Iraq? I think they do not--I certainly do not approve the USA's performance in Iraq.

>Do the Iraqis think they would be safer if the USA stayed until their government asked the USA to leave, or left before their government asked the USA to leave?

>Do the Iraqis want the USA to leave Iraq before their government is able to protect them from mass murder, or do they want the USA to leave after their government is able to protect them from mass murder?

There are several more problems with current polls. The reported results of some of the polls have been deliberately distorted by those reporting them. Several have been subsequently contradicted by other polls. Some of the additional reasons for these contradictions are the bias in the selection of those polled. Some of this bias is based on location, ethnicity, religious preference, and/or political preference of those polled.

Finally, the USA is not and should not be intended to be a democracy. It is intended to be a representative republic. That means the government should do what its elected representatives decide under our Constitution should be done. It does not mean that the government should do whatever the majority of the people want to be done week to week, or even year to year--only election to election. It is intended that these elected representatives be accountable to the people when they are elected, and if and when they are re-elected.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 07:57 pm
ican, "Bush did not lie us into war." That's an American minority opinion. The majority say he deliberately/intentionally misled/lied us into war.
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