THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

Bible Excerpts

The holy Bible, Revised Standard version

Exodus, chapter 20
1: And God spoke all these words, saying,
2: "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3: "You shall have no other gods before me.
4: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5: you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
6: but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7: "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
8: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9: Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
10: but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
11: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.
12: "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
13: "You shall not kill.
14: "You shall not commit adultery.
15: "You shall not steal.
16: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17: "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's."
...

chapter 21

1: "Now these are the ordinances which you shall set before them.
...
12: "Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death.
13: But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee.
14: But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him treacherously, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.
15: "Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.
16: "Whoever steals a man, whether he sells him or is found in possession of him, shall be put to death.
17: "Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.
...
23: If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,
24: eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25: burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
...
Matthew, chapter 5
1: Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down his disciples came to him.
2: And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:
3: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4: "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
6: "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7: "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
8: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10: "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11: "Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
...
17: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
19: Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
...
Matthew, chapter 7
1: "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2: For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
3: Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4: Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?
5: You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
...
15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16: You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17: So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
18: A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19: Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20: Thus you will know them by their fruits.
...

This is probably too simple for ican to understand, but here's the latest info on Bush's "plan" for Iraq.

Quote:

Panel: Bush's Iraq policy 'not working'
By ANNE PLUMMER FLAHERTY and DAVID ESPO, Associated Press Writers
29 minutes ago[/color]

...

The "killers" are increasing in numbers. DUH!

cicerone imposter wrote:

The "killers" are increasing in numbers. DUH!

Yes they are!

So let us do what we know will work to reduce their number.

ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

The "killers" are increasing in numbers. DUH!

Yes they are!

So let us do what we know will work to reduce their number.

Address the concerns of a tired and poor population which sees us as crusading conquerors?

I can only imagine that's what you meant, because the other thing you might have meant - reducing the number of terrorists through force of arms - why, that has absouletely zero historical evidence showing that this is an effective tactic. And you wouldn't suggest something which historically hasn't worked, would you?

Cycloptichorn

ican wrote: So let us do what we know will work to reduce their number.

Hey,ican, you need to contact Bush and let him know you have the answer to his problems. Bush is probably wasting his time with the Baker-Hamilton Commission and Gates.

Whether we continue our present tactics, negotiate, or preaturely leave, we will continue to see the murder rate continue to rapidly escalate and the sabotage to rapidly expand. There is only one strategic solution that can cause that escalation and expansion to decrease, stop and eventually reverse. We must do that which will destroy or capture these perpetrators within the neighborhoods they are located and at the borders they continue to cross. We must do that at the risk of the lives and property of non-perpetrators who are located in the same neigborhoods or in the same vicinity of those borders. Beginning that in credible earnest will also do much to enlist the aid of the probable victims of the perpetrators in outing and/or destroying the perpetrators. That in turn will discourage the perpetrators from residing in neighborhoods or crossing those borders.

Adopting and executing thist strategy will more quickly begin a net saving of lives than will present tactics, negotiations, or our premature departure.

The way to reduce innocent deaths, is to kill more innocent people.

...
Naturally, why should anyone believe this is true?

What I recommend is what was done in the 20th Century to achieve a net saving of millions of lives. That's adequate evidence.

You've shown no special predictive ability throughout the course of this war. Displayed no innate knowledge of geopolitical affairs and events that would lead people to trust you when you say,

Quote:

The way to reduce innocent deaths, is to kill more innocent people.

You've not shown yourself competent to make valid predictions or even accurately paraphrase much less quote what I post.

You make no predictions!

What I wrote would have been more accurately paraphrased had you written: The way to reduce net innocent deaths, is to risk killing innocent people in the neighborhoods of murderers.

Because, yaknow, that's pretty counter-intuitive. So when people hear something like that, they need some sort of evidence to back it up. And we can't trust war supporters to provide it, because they have a spectacular and well-documented record of being completely wrong.

Counter-intuitive, no! Counter-compassionate, yes!

The evidence is found in 20th century war experience.

[... war supporters ... "have a spectacular and well-documented record of being completely wrong" ]

In my experience in the 20th century, it's been the antiwar supporters that "have a spectacular and well-documented record of being completely wrong." Their intense and persuasive resistence to the reality of what totalitarians were really after, has led to millions of civilian casualties before and during the wars that had to be eventually fought and were fought to stop those totalitarians.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
Naturally, why should anyone believe this is true?

What I recommend is what was done in the 20th Century to achieve a net saving of millions of lives. That's adequate evidence.

You've shown no special predictive ability throughout the course of this war. Displayed no innate knowledge of geopolitical affairs and events that would lead people to trust you when you say,

Quote:

The way to reduce innocent deaths, is to kill more innocent people.

You've not shown yourself competent to make valid predictions or even accurately paraphrase much less quote what I post.

You make no predictions!

What I wrote would have been more accurately paraphrased had you written: The way to reduce net innocent deaths, is to risk killing innocent people in the neighborhoods of murderers.

Because, yaknow, that's pretty counter-intuitive. So when people hear something like that, they need some sort of evidence to back it up. And we can't trust war supporters to provide it, because they have a spectacular and well-documented record of being completely wrong.

Counter-intuitive, no! Counter-compassionate, yes!

The evidence is found in 20th century war experience.

[... war supporters ... "have a spectacular and well-documented record of being completely wrong" ]

In my experience in the 20th century, it's been the antiwar supporters that "have a spectacular and well-documented record of being completely wrong." Their intense and persuasive resistence to the reality of what totalitarians were really after, has led to millions of civilian casualties before and during the wars that had to be eventually fought and were fought to stop those totalitarians.

Cycloptichorn

I have another prediction. But first let me acknowledge my previous wrong prediction about Iraq ( ... not to mention my wrong prediction about congressional election results). I predicted that casualty rates in Iraq would diminish over the last 6 months of 2006. I was terribly wrong. In making that prediction I assumed that the Bush administration would adopt by June 2006 the strategy I described. Wrong assumption! I gave them far more credit than they deserved.

So here's my prediction. The Bush administration throughout the remainder of its term will not adopt the strategy I described. As a consequence, civilian casualty rates and totals will continue to climb in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Also, the administrations that follow the current one will not adopt that strategy until the US is once again a victim of another major terrorist attack. I expect the first of more than one such attacks within the next five years.


I would be ecstatic if I were proved wrong again.

In making that prediction I assumed that the Bush administration would adopt by June 2006 the strategy I described. Wrong assumption! I gave them far more credit than they deserved.

...
Without a transformation in our leadership, we will not see a transformation in our situation in Iraq or the ME in general.

Cycloptichorn

ican, The reason nobody is able to "transform" anything in Iraq is very simple; it was a mistake to engage in the first place. Bush didn't listen to the experts. He's a moron; the most dangerious in the world today.

The Sorosiks are unable to even think about, much less deduce, the probable consequences of failing to engage in the first place.

Quote:

The Sorosiks are unable to even think about, much less deduce, the probable consequences of failing to engage in the first place.

I don't know who the Sorosiks are, but you should realize that those of us who were against the war from the begininng were quite aware of the consequences of 'failing to engage' Saddam: they were no different than the situation that we had previously been experiencing.

I must unfortunately tell you again that you have no credibility when it comes to talking about 'probable consequences' of anything. Your judgement has been shown to be faulty when it comes to deducing the probable consequences of things. There isn't any reason to believe that you have any special knowledge about what would have happened if we hadn't engaged Iraq.

So you need to come up with a better argument than this if you want anyone to take your opinion seriously, because the 'trust me, I'm a wise foreign policy expert' angle is shot.

Cycloptichorn

Bush says he's 'disappointed by pace of success' in Iraq
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Thursday he is "disappointed by the pace of success" in Iraq but stopped short of admitting the United States had made any mistakes in strategy.

Appearing at a news conference with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Bush said the Iraq war is "unsettling," but offered no details on how his administration might alter its strategy there.

Asked by a reporter to amplify on the word "unsettling," Bush said, "I understand how hard our troops are working. I know how brave the men and women who wear the uniform are. ... I understand what long deployments mean to wives and husbands and mothers and fathers, particularly as we come into a holiday season. I understand. And I have made it abundantly clear how tough it is.

"I understand how hard it is to prevail. But I also want the American people to understand that, if we were to fail -- and one way to assure failure is just to quit, is not to adjust and say it's just not worth it," Bush added.

Asked if he were capable of changing course and admitting failures in Iraq, the president replied: "I do know that we have not succeeded as fast as we wanted to succeed. I do know that progress hasn't happened as fast as I'd hoped. I am disappointed by the pace of success." (Posted 1:17 p.m.)