THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

ican

Well the US military and UN forces invaded Afghanistan after being attacked on 9/11.

Now answer this for me;

Where is Osama bin Laden and why didn't Bush concentrate all our forces into destroying him and Al Qaeda instead of going into Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al Qaeda ( as the Bush administration so said)?

Why is the Teliban making a resurgence today? Why couldn't the UN and NATO finish the job?

Why has NATO allowed Afghanistan disintegrate into chaos and anarchy?

Why is Al Qaeda still an active organization plotting terror against us and our allies?

Bush had far more resources for this job than Clinton did.

Quote:

Iraq: The Policy Dilemma
September 05, 2006 21 01 GMT
By George Friedman
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You noticed that the Iranians saw this weakness. We can thank Bush/Rumsfeld for this show of weakness.

No, we cannot thank Bush/Rumsfeld for that! We can thank you mindless-cool-aid-groupies to GSPG = George Soros Pseudology Gospel that is adamantly "giving ... Aid and Comfort" to the IT = Islamo Totalitarians (e.g., Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists) on the internet and in the leftist newsmedia.
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And guess who's responsible for this potentially disasterous situation; George Bush and his invasion of Iraq, a country that was of no threat to America but whose dictator was a counterbalance to Iran. Good old dumb George Bush has removed Iran's greatest enemy and threat and has delivered Iraq into Iran's hands. And how do we prevent this from happening? Easy, we keep American troops in Iraq indefinately, have their lives sucked out of them and pour hundreds of billions of our dollars into the great hole of Iraq.

Iraq after 9/11/2001--one more time, after 9/11/2001--became one of the havens to which Afghanistan based al-Qaeda fled. As a consequence, Iraq began substituting for Afghanistan as a harborer of al_Qaeda. Why did we invade Afghanistan? To punish it for its role in 9/11, or to prevent it from being the base of future 9/11s?

Many of you mindless-cool-aid-groupies helping GSPG in "giving ... Aid and Comfort" to the IT repeatedly imply it was to punish it. But the real reason was to prevent it from being the base of future 9/11s. Well, hello! That's also the reason we invaded Iraq: to prevent it from being the base of future 9/11s.

Making both countries democracies was perceived as a way to prevent Afghanistan and Iraq again becoming havens for al-Qaeda. Another way to prevent Afghanistan and Iraq again becoming havens for al-Qaeda is to declare it USA policy to remove their governments whenever in future they became havens for al-Qaeda. While making both countries democracies, is the more expensive way to prevent Afghanistan and Iraq again becoming havens for al-Qaeda, if successful this way will give the people of both countries freedom from totalitarian governments.
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George Bush has put us into a quagmire. We can't win and we can't leave. We will just have to keep sacrificing American lives of about two per day indefinitely.

That is more mindless-cool-aid-groupies helping GSPG in "giving ... Aid and Comfort" to the IT. We can win as long as the American people persist in ignoring you mindless-cool-aid-groupies.
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Remember when the conservatives tried to have us believe a blow job by a Monica was one of the most terrible things that has happened in the history of our country. Boy, what I would give to get back an intelligent president that gets blow jobs over one that kills Americans.

That is more mindless-cool-aid-groupies helping GSPG in "giving ... Aid and Comfort" to the IT. Clinton was not impeached for getting blow jobs. Clinton was impeached for the crime of perjury, a felony, a high crime. Clinton lied to a grandjury.

ican emphasis

Quote:

The Constitution of the United States of America
Effective as of March 4, 1789
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Article II
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Section 4. The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

Al Qaeda was never anything but a name. A name that we gave a loose confederation of terrorists whose titular head was Osama Bin Laden.

You have no idea whether their funding was stopped or not, because so much of it runs through non-traditional 'halawa' systems of monetary exchange which leave no paper trail whatsoever.

Your answers belie a real misunderstanding of AQ and how they are organized, and what a problem they are.

Cycloptichorn

Al Qaeda was never anything but a name. A name that we gave a loose confederation of terrorists whose titular head was Osama Bin Laden.
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Cycloptichorn

http://www.mideastweb.org/osamabinladen1.htm

Who is Osama Bin Laden?
Osama Bin Laden (also - Usama bin Laden, Usama bin Ladin) who instigated the terror attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001, is probably the most wanted man on earth. He carries on a crusade against the Americans for having troops in Saudi Arabia, and against the Zionists who occupy Al Quds (Jerusalem). Born in 1957 to a wealthy Saudi Arabian construction magnate, he joined the Afghan Moslem rebels fighting the USSR in 1979. He used his money to recruit an army from around the middle east. Throughout the 1980s, Bin Laden fought the Soviet backed regime, with CIA aid. However, he saw secular, powerful Washington as much an infidel as Moscow. After the war, he returned to Saudi Arabia, , but the Saudi government feared his brand of militant Islam, and stripped him of his Saudi citizenship in April 1994 for ``irresponsible behavior.'' In Sudan, the country's Islamic ideologue, Hassan al-Turabi, gave him shelter. Bin Laden, with a fortune estimated at $300 million, helped build a road linking the capital, Khartoum, with Port Sudan and an airport. He became involved, too, in the export of Sudanese goods, like gum, corn, sunflower and sesame products. However, western pressure on Sudan, forced him to leave in 1995, returning to Afghanistan, reportedly with more than 100 followers.

In Afghanistan, he has built a shadowy terrorist movement, Al-Qaeda, apparently composed of Arabs originally recruited to fight the Soviets. They are Egyptians, Saudis, Algerians, among other nationalities, and they travel about using false passports: Egyptian, Sudanese, Yemeni, even European. According to Diaa Rashwan, of Egypt's Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies, "The majority come from universities, they're modern and they use modern methods. Americans imagine these people come from the Middle Ages and that's not true."

This group is allegedly responsible for bombing the World Trade Center in New York in 1993 and the Egyptian Embassy in Pakistan two years later. They are suspected of attacking U.S.-run facilities in Saudi Arabia. They tried to kill Egypt's president in Ethiopia. They have fought in wars and insurgencies in some of the world's most troubled spots -- Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir and Tajikistan. A group was organized by Bin Laden in early 1998, with leaders from Pakistan and Egypt, called the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaderssent the following message: "Strikes will continue from everywhere, and Islamic groups will appear one after the other to fight American interests.'' The statement was published in Al-Ayyam. In a Fatwa faxed to the London newspaper Al-Quds, the group also wrote: `We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it,''

In August 7, 1998, his group was allegedly responsible for bombing US facilities in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In retaliation, the US bombed his camps near the Pakistani border, as well as a pharmaceuticals plant in Sudan, with no effect other than then killing innocent people. The fanatic Taliban rulers of Afghanistan assured the world after the bombings: Osama Bin Laden ``is safe and no damage has been done to any of his companions.''

Bin Laden had been living in Afghanistan with the permission of the Taliban, who controlled most of the country. In areas under Taliban control, women are confined to the home, girls are denied education, and television, movies and books have been banned. The Taliban caused a stir by destroying two ancient statues of Buddha recently. A recent edict forces special dress for non-Moslems. Christians accused of missionary activity were recently sentenced to death, but allowed to leave the country. Thieves have their hands cut off and murderers are executed in public. The Taleban were vanquished in the US-led invasion in October 2001, but Osama bin Laden was not captured, and is apparently alive. Several videotapes and recordings believed to be authentic messages of Osama Bin Laden were issued since the US attack.

The world had ample warning of Osama's plans, since his earliest Declaration of War against the Americans in 1996, and the other fatwahs reproduced below.
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Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places" 1996
(This Fatwa was redistributed in 1998)
Our youths believe in paradise after death. They believe that taking part in fighting will not bring their day nearer; and staying behind will not postpone their day either.
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Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner.
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OSAMA BIN LADEN: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans -1998
Published in Al-Quds al-'Arabi on Febuary 23, 1998
Statement signed by Sheikh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin; Ayman al-Zawahiri, leader of the Jihad Group in Egypt; Abu- Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, a leader of the Islamic Group; Sheikh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan; and Fazlul Rahman, leader of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)";
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On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."
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Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols
Jun 09, 2004
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00035.html

All praises be to Allah and peace be upon His messenger, Prophet Muhammad, his
families, companions and whoever follows:

Once again, we repeat our call and send this clear message to our Muslim brothers,
warning against fellowship with the Crusaders, the Americans, Westerners and all idols
in the Arab Gulf. Muslims should not associate with them anywhere, be it in their
homes, complexes or travel with them by any means of transportation.

Prophet Muhammad said "I am free from who lives among idols".

No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with
the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.

Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation,
especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our
forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn
away from.
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Osama bin Laden and some close associates gave their confederation the name al-Qaeda more than a decade ago.

Quote:

Osama bin Laden and some close associates gave their confederation the name al-Qaeda more than a decade ago.

According to who? Your post doesn't detail this fact. In fact, your post doesn't say who named AQ at all.

Cycloptichorn

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch2.htm

2.3 THE RISE OF BIN LADIN AND AL QAEDA (1988-1992)
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April 1988 brought victory for the Afghan jihad. Moscow declared it would pull its military forces out of Afghanistan within the next nine months. As the Soviets began their withdrawal, the jihad's leaders debated what to do next.

Bin Ladin and Azzam agreed that the organization successfully created for Afghanistan should not be allowed to dissolve. They established what they called a base or foundation (al Qaeda) as a potential general headquarters for future jihad.24 Though Azzam had been considered number one in the MAK, by August 1988 Bin Ladin was clearly the leader (emir) of al Qaeda. This organization's structure included as its operating arms an intelligence component, a military committee, a financial committee, a political committee, and a committee in charge of media affairs and propaganda. It also had an Advisory Council (Shura) made up of Bin Ladin's inner circle.25
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parados wrote:

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This is the actual deaths per month for January through May from the IBC data
January 06 min/max 1186 ... 1267
Feb 06 ................. 1236 ... 1287
March 06 ............ 1423 ... 1538
April 06 ................. 1199 ... 1287
May 06 ................. 1659 ... 1814

Jan through May now all include the morgue figures. If you do the math you will find that the totals don't relate to your claim for monthly average because I am using date of incident and not the date posted to IBC database. The average per month for the first 5 months is min/max 1340.6 1438.6. The biggest reason for this change is the recent addition of 595-691 morgue figures.

June, July and August figures don't yet include the morgue data but by adding the equivalent of morgue data from the other months you will see the an increase from the average from Jan - May.

June, July and August totals don't include morgue figures yet. Those totals at present are
June .... 740 ... 804
July .... 1108 ... 1180
August ... 629 ... 670 (August is far from done as it can take weeks for incidents to be reported and confirmed by IBC)

Based on the May morgue figures from Baghdad, roughly half were added to the totals on IBC.
June Baghdad morgue totals were roughly 1500. So expect another 500-750 added to June totals
July Baghdad morgue had just over 1800 so add another 700-900 to that figure.
August figures appear to be down but no official ones reported yet that I have seen.

OK! Until and unless IBC subsequently shows otherwise, I'll go with your "max" numbers for January thru May . For June and July, I will add your larger morgue estimates to your present numbers. For August I'll use my estimates.

January 06 .. = 1267
Feb 06 ........ = 1287
March 06 ..... = 1538
April 06 ....... = 1287
May 06 ........ = 1814
June 06 ....... = 804 + 750 = 1554
July 06 ........ = 1180 + 900 = 2080
August 06 .... = 875 + 800 = 1675

What Dropoff? August Death Total in Baghdad Morgue Triples

We took an interesting phone call today from an official at the Baghdad morgue. We get these calls every day - a daily tally of the violence. But this one was particularly sobering.

It turns out the official toll of violent deaths in August was just revised upwards to 1535 from 550, tripling the total. Now, we're depressingly used to hearing about deaths here, so much so that the numbers can be numbing. But this means that a much-publicized drop-off in violence in August - heralded by both the Iraqi government and the US military as a sign that a new security effort in Baghdad was working -- apparently didn't exist.

Operation Together Forward, the main thrust of the new strategy, involves establishing pockets of security in select neighborhoods and then slowly adding more. These latest numbers add substance to fears Together Forward creates a whack-a-mole effect: that is, secure one area and the violence will pop up somewhere else. Violent deaths now appear roughly in line with the earlier trend: 1855 in July and 1595 in June. Officials at the Baghdad morgue have no good explanation for the dramatically revised number. We'll see what the U.S. military has to say.

Osama is hiding. Iran most likely as there is now way the US or Western forces would ever be allowed to search for him there.

Al Qaeda is nothing more then a name now. Most of their leaders have been killed or captured (with the obvious exception of Osama), their funding has been stopped for the most part and they are much like the boogie man now. All hype, little action.

"Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al-Qaida and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland," Bush said.

Iraq is part of the war on terror. Do you understand what that means? It's not a war on Osama, it's not a war on Al Qaeda but a war on terror... Iraq, actually it was Saddam, supported terrorism. Actively. Now he doesn't, but the children with explosives in Iraq don't want to play nicely with the other children in Iraq and now we are stuck parenting them. Sucks, but what can you do?

The Taliban is making a resurgence because the Afghani government has not received the support and training promised by the UN and NATO. They are too weak to go out into the country and face the Taliban forces in their strongholds so the fester like a boil til they feel confidant to spew their puss on everyone around them.

I have no idea why the UN and NATO have let Afghanistan get to the point that it is. Ask them.

Al Qaeda is still active and plotting? You sure it's not just other terrorist groups using the boogieman title Al Qaeda?

I would be happy if the US hunted down every dog that claimed to be a terrorist and killed them, but that's not possible because they hide like the pansies they are. When we try to go after them, the whining begins almost immediately about civilian casualties and the amount of money being spent and American casualties. Perhaps you can come up witha solution?

McGentrix wrote:

Osama is hiding. Iran most likely as there is now way the US or Western forces would ever be allowed to search for him there.

Gez, where do you get this crap from, some right wing nut website trying to give reasons why we should attack Iran? This is really dumb.

McGentrix wrote:

Al Qaeda is nothing more then a name now. Most of their leaders have been killed or captured (with the obvious exception of Osama), their funding has been stopped for the most part and they are much like the boogie man now. All hype, little action.

If that's so then why is Bush always using Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda to put fear in Americans. He used him in his last speech. Said he is still very dangerous.

Quote:

"Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al-Qaida and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland," Bush said.

McGentrix wrote:

Iraq is part of the war on terror. Do you understand what that means? It's not a war on Osama, it's not a war on Al Qaeda but a war on terror... Iraq, actually it was Saddam, supported terrorism. Actively. Now he doesn't, but the children with explosives in Iraq don't want to play nicely with the other children in Iraq and now we are stuck parenting them. Sucks, but what can you do?

I assume you got this garbage from our president. That is not the reason we attacked Iraq. It was because of those phantom WMD's he was suppose to give to that shadow organization you claim is nothing but a name. Don't you remember that? Now Bush says it because they supported terrorist.

Well if that's the reason why didn't we attack Saudi Arabia? They supported the same terrorist plus they made new ones in Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan. They had a lot more to do with the terrorist then Saddam Hussein. Not to mention their people had less freedom then the Iraqi people did under Saddam Hussein.

McGentrix wrote:

The Taliban is making a resurgence because the Afghani government has not received the support and training promised by the UN and NATO. They are too weak to go out into the country and face the Taliban forces in their strongholds so the fester like a boil til they feel confidant to spew their puss on everyone around them.

I have no idea why the UN and NATO have let Afghanistan get to the point that it is. Ask them.

If that is the case you can blame that on Bush. He abandoned Afghanistan so he could put as much of our resources into Iraq as he can. There would have been no need for us to call in NATO or the UN if we had decided to finish the job in Afghanistan first.

Actually, when you look at Bush's track record in Iraq it would not surprise me if the country would have been in worse shape if NATO and the UN didn't come in.

McGentrix wrote:

Al Qaeda is still active and plotting? You sure it's not just other terrorist groups using the boogieman title Al Qaeda?

Well George Bush says they are but after all the lies he told us about Iraq I suppose you can't believe anything he says anymore.

McGentrix wrote:

I would be happy if the US hunted down every dog that claimed to be a terrorist and killed them, but that's not possible because they hide like the pansies they are. When we try to go after them, the whining begins almost immediately about civilian casualties and the amount of money being spent and American casualties. Perhaps you can come up witha solution?

Not that is really dumb. What do you expect them to do, stand out in the open and say, 'Shoot me'? We would behave in the same way if we were in the same circumstances. Would you call us cowards and pansies?

Remember the Revolutionary War when our patriots hid behind trees and sniped at the British soldiers? Were they cowards for doing that and not standing out in the open and shooting at them mano e mano. After Lexington and Concord the British were saying the same thing about us as you are saying about the terrorist.

Tell you what. You level the playing field, give our troops the same weapons as they have, take away our Kevlar protection and air cover and I bet you they will stand up to us and anyone toe to toe. They are not cowards or pansies. With their religious conviction they are far more willing to die for what they believe in than we are. They fight with a great deal less sophisticated equipment and support, under greater conditions of depravation than our troops. They are not pansies or cowards by any means.

Not to mention, their style of fighting works well towards their goal.

Question: How was Russia defeated in Afghanistan by AQ?

Cycloptichorn

Just an observation...is this whole thread this personal?

Tell you what. You level the playing field, give our troops the same weapons as they have, take away our Kevlar protection and air cover and I bet you they will stand up to us and anyone toe to toe. They are not cowards or pansies. With their religious conviction they are far more willing to die for what they believe in than we are. They fight with a great deal less sophisticated equipment and support, under greater conditions of depravation than our troops. They are not pansies or cowards by any means.

No, I don't need websites to make an opinion. Iran is a safehaven of extraodinary size for the likes of Osama. I'd tell you to be reasonable and think about it, but that obviously is not one of your strong suits.

Because he is a politician trying to firm up support for his position.

Osama no longer represents the threat he once did because he is in hiding.

No, I said that. You really don't pay attention to much, huh? You are too busy being anti-Bush to realize what is happening.

You can love the terrorists all you wish, I will continue to hate them and what they stand for. They are trash and those that support them deserve the same fate the terrorists will receive.

I don't love the terrorist, I give them the respect they're due.

xingu wrote:

I don't love the terrorist, I give them the respect they're due.

You don't love terrorists, you just respect them and their methods. Safe to assume you applaud every time they detonate a nail bomb in a cafe packed with civilians?