THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

What you folks continue to fail to understand is that those of us who disagree with you, do not disagree with you about the inadequacy of the USA's performance in Iraq and Afghanistan. We disagree with you over what to do about the inadequacy of the USA's performance in Iraq in Afghanistan.

You folks appear to think the USA's inadequate performance cannot be improved.

We folks who disagree with you think the USA's inadequate performance can be improved.

You folks appear to think we should leave Iraq and Afghanistan by a date certain.

We folks who disagree with you think we should leave Iraq and Afghanistan only after the respective governments of those two countries are able to de-itm-ize their countries on their own.

You folks appear to think that we have lost and should quit.

We folks who disagree with you think that we must persist and do whatever it takes to enable the governents of Iraq and Afghanistan to de-itm-ize their countries on their own.

You folks appear to think the itm, if left to pursue their declared global objectives are not a serious threat to America and humanity.

We folks who disagree with you think the itm, if left to pursue their declared global objectives, are a serious threat to America and humanity.

You folks appear to think the USA shares responsibility with the itm for the murders perpetrated by the itm.

We folks who disagree with you think the itm are 100% responsible for the murders perpetrated by the itm.

Note: itm = inhuman terrorist malignancy = those who murder civilians + those who abet the murder of civilians + those who advocate the murder of civilians + those who are silent witnesses to the murder of civilians + those who allow the murderers of civilians sanctuary.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
THE IRAQ BODY COUNT Database
This is an ongoing human security project which maintains and updates the world's only independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq that have resulted from the 2003 military intervention by the USA and its allies. The count includes civilian deaths caused by coalition military action and by military or paramilitary responses to the coalition presence (e.g. insurgent and terrorist attacks). It also includes excess civilian deaths caused by criminal action resulting from the breakdown in law and order which followed the coalition invasion.

PREDICTIONS BY ICAN

1,050 Iraqi civilians died violently in June 2006.

950 Iraqi civilians died violently in July 2006.

850 Iraqi civilians died violently in August 2006.

750 Iraqi civilians died violently in September 2006.

650 Iraqi civilians died violently in October 2006.

550 Iraqi civilians died violently in November 2006.

450 Iraqi civilians died violently in December 2006.

ican, When are you going to accept the fact that Iraq cannot be "improved" by the US or UK?
When are you going to accept the fact that you and likeminded folks do not know for certain whether or not Iraq can be "improved" by the US or UK? I judge the probability that the US and UK can "improve" Iraq and Afghanistan to be better than 50%.

It took America 12 years, 8 months from July 4th 1776 to March 4, 1789 to build a workable government, and we have been trying to improve on it ever since -- The 27th (last) amendment to our Constitution was adopted on 05/07/1992.

Let's see now: we removed the tyrannical government of Iraq in March 2003. November 2015 is 12 years, 8 months from the date of that removal. I think the Iraqis will easily beat Americas old record for establishing a working government.

It's been said of determined human beings, "The difficult takes time; the impossible takes a little longer." :wink:

Improvement must come from within, but as the sectarian and tribal conflict gets worse, there is nothing we can do.
Improvement will come from within with a little help by the US and UK, since there is a great deal we and they can do and are doing.

The majority of Iraqis want us out of their country!
That's more liebral pseudology. More than 50% of the Iraqi population wants us to remain and continue to help them, according to their most recent polls.

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Quote:

Only a UN-led peace process can halt the Iraq catastrophe
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If the government cannot explain why it is necessary that they should make the ultimate sacrifice, then it must be prepared to bring them home.
...

I have no doubt that from time to time Bush et al have spoken of the future of Iraq, but I cannot recall ever having seen an actual plan.

I mean, there are vague outlining of points - such as this - but no real discussion on how we are going to achieve those points, beyond the level of simple slogans.

I think it is also quite telling that there are no metrics for determining when these points will be achieved. I realize that you want to rely upon casualty rate to do so, but don't you think that there are other factors, social, economic, and military, that will have to be in place as well?
Yes there are other factors than casualty rate trends. However, it is the casualty rate trend that I think is the primary factor controlling when it is safe for the Iraqi people for the withdrawal of USA troops. By the way, my source for casualty rate trends is IBC's Count of Civilians Killed in Iraq since 1/1/2003:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/


There is also the question of permanent military bases in Iraq, something that will undoubtedly be a sticking point in the next year or so with the Iraqi government, who has been striking deals with the insurgents which call for the removal of all foreign troops from Iraq.
Cycloptichorn

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There is nothing forthcoming from this administration that shows they are intrested in improving the situation in Iraq; "stay the course" is not a plan or goal. No solution or program coming forth from this administration only shows their incompetence. "We will succeed in Iraq" is not a plan.

The differences between our revolution against Britain are worlds away from Iraq's democracy at gun point set up from outsiders clear across an ocean. Luckily enough Iraqis want to govern themselves and so they held elections and participated in them. However, everything else has gone to pot.
Yes, these revolutions against tyranny are different -- very different. The US revolution had the help of the French, and there were little or noitm itm in the colonies. So our problem though extremely difficult was easier than the Iraqis' problem. But it took us 12 years, 8 months to establish a workable government. So far it's only been 3 years, 3 months since the Iraqis had US, UK et al help and began to establish a workable government in the midst of itm.

Should we have quit our revolution after 3 years 3 months? I think not! We required resolve to win! The Iraqis now require resolve to win. More than anything else the Iraqis require our resolve now in addition to their own to win.

Wishful optimism is not a plan for success and I haven't heard anything different from the bush administration concerning the strategy of Iraq accept the tired refrain of "stay the course" and so far it aint worked.

While I recognize you [all] would like more detailed excerpts, I furnish here only the general excerpts which comprise the plan I previously posted. However, I also posted where you can find the detailed excerpts.

Tuesday night, September 11, 2001, the President broadcast to the nation:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Chapter 10

Quote:

We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.

Friday, September 14, 2001
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/terroristattack/joint-resolution_9-14.html

Congress wrote:

The President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

Thursday, September 20, 2001, President Bush addressed the nation before a joint session of Congress:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Chapter 10

Quote:

Tonight we are a country awakened to danger. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.

emphasis added by ican

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/01/20060123-4.html

Quote:

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
January 23, 2006
President Discusses Global War on Terror at Kansas State University
Kansas State University
Manhattan, Kansas
...
And the definition of success, by the way, is for there to be a country where the terrorists and Saddamists can no longer threaten the democracy, and where Iraqi security forces can provide for the security of their people, and where Iraq is not a safe haven from which the terrorists -- al Qaeda and its affiliates -- can plot attacks against America.

We got a strategy, and I'm going to keep talking about the strategy -- it will yield a victory. And the strategy is political security and economic in nature. In economic, we're going to help them rebuild their country, help secure their oil supply so they'll have cash flow in order to invest in their people. On the political front, you've seen it -- you've seen what happened in one year's time. It's just amazing, I think. I guess, we take it for granted -- some of us do. I don't. The fact that people have gone from living under the clutches of a tyrant who ordered the murder of thousands of his own citizens, to a society in which people last year started voting -- ... voting for an interim government, voting for a constitution, and then voting for a permanent government under the new constitution. The government is now -- they're beginning to form.
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Our strategy is twofold: We're on the hunt for the terrorists, and we're training Iraqis. And we're making decent progress. There are more and more Iraqi units in the fight. There's more and more country being turned over to the Iraqis. We got a lot of bases around Iraq, and more of those bases are being given to the Iraqi troops.
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Look, this enemy cannot beat us. They cannot defeat us militarily. There's no chance. The one weapon they have, which is a lethal weapon, is the willingness to kill people.
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In there long-term -- in the short-term, we'll stay on the offense; in the long-term, the way to defeat these people is to spread liberty.

emphasis added by ican
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/

Quote:

June 2006
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This Week, The President Called Together His National Security Team And Other Key Members Of His Cabinet At Camp David To Build On That Progress And Ensure That The New Iraqi Government Succeeds.
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Prime Minister Maliki Is Focused On Taking Immediate Actions In Three Areas:
1. Improve security by both military and political actions; secure Baghdad; eliminate armed gangs; and promote national reconciliation and the rule of law.
2. Immediately build economic and government capacity; increase production of oil and electricity; and build a foundation for prosperity.
3. Engage the nations of the region and the
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Examples Of Specific Actions The U.S. Government Will Take In The Short Term To Advance The Iraqi Government Plan
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>Securing Baghdad: ...
>Securing Ramadi: ...
>Building Confidence In Iraq's Security Forces: ...
>Judicial Capacity: ...
>Bringing Armed Groups Under Control Of The Government: ...
>Reconciliation: ...
>On Economic And Government Capacity-Building: ...
>Oil And Electricity: ...
>On Engaging The Nations Of The World In Iraq's Success:...

ican, At what point do "we" become the terrorists? When we've killed how many? 100,000 more innocent Iraqis?

So you can't be a terrorist if you are attempting to murder those that have caused the deaths of civilians?

So, if a US policy causes deaths of civilians in the arab world that means that Osama can't be a terrorist, doesn't it?

To the families that have had family members and friends killed by our military, we ARE the "inhuman terrorist malignancy."

BAGHDAD, July 5 -- Following a recent string of alleged atrocities by U.S. troops against Iraqi civilians, leaders from across Iraq's political spectrum called Wednesday for a review of the U.S.-drafted law that prevents prosecution of coalition forces in Iraqi courts.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki told reporters during a visit to Kuwait that "the immunity given to members of coalition forces encouraged them to commit such crimes in cold blood," adding, "That makes it necessary to review it."

Yes, these revolutions against tyranny are different -- very different. The US revolution had the help of the French, and there were little or noitm itm in the colonies. So our problem though extremely difficult was easier than the Iraqis' problem. But it took us 12 years, 8 months to establish a workable government. So far it's only been 3 years, 3 months since the Iraqis had US, UK et al help and began to establish a workable government in the midst of itm.

Should we have quit our revolution after 3 years 3 months? I think not! We required resolve to win! The Iraqis now require resolve to win. More than anything else the Iraqis require our resolve now in addition to their own to win.