There is just no getting through is there? Can't some of you see it? You may not flat out state that "unless you change to my way of thinking you are wrong" you are more than getting that point across.
Have one of you said "well, how about this for a compromise?" No. Your statements are all geared at telling me I am wrong because I do not think your way. I understand that this is a very passionate issue for so many. I understand sticking to your beliefs.
But, can't you see that this is exactly the thing that the Christian Right (believers) are being accused of? They won't back off a bit so others feel that their will is being shoved down their throats.
What's the difference here? I am not angry at anyone. I am not upset with anyone. I am trying to find out why there can't be some type of compromise? This is why wars start! Because no one wants to be wrong. No one wants to back off of what they believe or want. Can someone please, please, please tell me why?
sozobe,
Please tell me you aren't serious about where is my compromise? Please! Again, if I don't change my mind to thinking homosexuality is ok then I am not compromising?
I went from I would vote against it to withholding my vote. C'mon!
sozobe wrote:Hmmm, sort of. Then it's on the misunderstood person to clarify -- as I just did. :-)
Touche Sozobe... Good one!
However I would like to present something here. The only way someone can truly clarify is if those asking for clarification are actually willing to hear (not necessarily agree with) what they say. My perception of this situation is that momma has been put into a category by some based on her beliefs.
Because her train of thought is so oppositional to them, those arguing are not even willing to hear, let alone compromise, because it's already been decided she is wrong and that decision negates everything she says before she even says it. Therefore there is no compromise on either side, just a whole lotta bashing going on in here!
Interesting senario. What if EVERYBODY abstained with a vote? Who made the compromise?
Just wonderin.
Do the Christian Right back it up logically?
That is the difference.
I'm perfectly happy to back up logically why I think there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, and why I think that gay and lesbian people have the right to marry.
Yes, there is right and wrong in the world. I believe in standing up for what I think is right. And I arrive at that conclusion, and defend it, with facts and logic. Not just that, surely, but if I have an opinion that I find is not consistent with facts and logic, I change it.
Not all compromise is good. Would you accept the death of one cat to compromise, or fight for the lives of both?
hephzibah, I heartily disagree.
The basic principle here, from Momma Angel, is that homosexuality is wrong. She wavers on whether individuals should be discriminated against -- that is to her credit. But she says, repeatedly, that it is wrong.
That's the two dead cats or one dead cat. It's something that a lot of people are not willing to compromise on. If you can show that, for example, one of the cats has a terrible disease and it would die the next day after infecting all the rest of the cats, so killing it might not be so bad after all, that's one thing. (Facts, logic.) If you just keep insisting that killing one cat instead of two is a compromise, we're gonna keep saying, no, don't kill either one.
Momma- One does not have to approve of homosexuality, in order to give all citizens equal rights. For instance, I have observed many marriages of which I do not approve. There are abusive spouses, uncaring spouses, totally self centered spouses, etc. who make their partner's lives miserable.
I certainly would not say that since I don't approve of these marriages, that I would deny these folks the legal right to marry. So approval of a person's lifestyle, IMO, is not sufficient reason to deny all people equal protection under the laws.
I didn't say anything about the bible.
I'm asking whether you can provide any logical support for your assertion that homosexuality is wrong.
(Citing the bible would, to me, have the opposite effect.)
Yes you and many others are willing to do that Sozobe... unfortunately though those who you choose to see as having an argument that is not logical by your standards are not even being heard. They are only being mocked and made fun of because they don't agree.
That's a good point, too, Phoenix.
Momma Angel wrote:There is just no getting through is there? Can't some of you see it? You may not flat out state that "unless you change to my way of thinking you are wrong" you are more than getting that point across.
Have one of you said "well, how about this for a compromise?" No. Your statements are all geared at telling me I am wrong because I do not think your way. I understand that this is a very passionate issue for so many. I understand sticking to your beliefs.
But, can't you see that this is exactly the thing that the Christian Right (believers) are being accused of? They won't back off a bit so others feel that their will is being shoved down their throats.
What's the difference here? I am not angry at anyone. I am not upset with anyone. I am trying to find out why there can't be some type of compromise? This is why wars start! Because no one wants to be wrong. No one wants to back off of what they believe or want. Can someone please, please, please tell me why?
Look, you make a very valid point about Liberals-- They are just as hard assed, if not more than whomever, I agree with you wholeheartedly on that one-- But, this kind of debate is NOT why wars start. This debate is just a bunch of fairly decent (some more so than others) sitting on their keesters debating with you, who cannot veer away from your beloved Bible to think for yourself.
Why do you care what other people's sexual preferences are? You care because the Bible tells you to mind their business...not because you think for yourself.
Whose standards is it logical by?
RIGHT! Just admit it everyone, c'mon! Unless I change the way I think about this I am wrong.
Until I say that homosexuality is ok I am going to be wrong.
There is no compromise on this because you (not literal) have not even offered one. If there is one, show it to me! Please! Where are you willing to show compromise and tolerance in this issue for my point of view?
Here's a compromise to consider...
Maybe homosexual behavior is wrong, maybe it's not.
People here tolerate the fanatical religious point of view, they don't tolerate it being used as an excuse to deny full civil rights to others.
Yes, I think you're wrong. I've never said otherwise.
It's as wrong as killing two cats.
So I won't offer you one cat to kill as a compromise.
AND... I am perfectly happy to support why I think what I do with facts and logic.
Are you?
Intrepid wrote:I have already stated my views on this near the beginning of the thread. It does seem that the thread took on a life of it's own and branched out into other areas.
I felt that abstaining would not be a vote for but would also not hurt the outcome like a no would. After following this thread completely, I am coming to the conclusion that to abstain so that others will not think badly etc. is a mistake. If no is what is in the heart, then no should be the vote.
Personally, I cannot pick just homosexuality from the bible as being against the will of God. There are many things that are also written that today are condoned by Christians. We cannot have it both ways. It should be all or nothing. Otherwise, we do not have the right to pick and choose.
I wonder if the same passion would have been displayed if the discussion was on a vote on, say, jaywalking. Yes / No / Abstain.
I agree wholeheartedly. I would rath4r someone be passionate, and consider them wrong--if they come to their decision based on something close to their heart--than sit it out to please others.
And, I respect you taking the time to look at what Christ/God points out as sin and abomination in the Bible. I discovered after doing this myself, that man has more to do with pinpointing sins/abominations he is comfortable damning--and holding those out for special condemnation.
Respect to Intrepid.
MA hasn't answered the question as to why single homosexuality out from the seven abominations quoted from the Bible.
Many things are wrong. Why persecute the gay people?
